I'm Lost, Plain and Simple

Training Beginners
21

[quote]doosl wrote:

Whats wrong with someone new to weight training starting with a handful of exercises? If a beginner started with only squats, deadlifts, bench press, chins, and dips I guarantee you he’ll build a decent base of size that’s fairly proportionate. After that’s accomplished, lagging bodyparts could be addressed.[/quote]

You can guarantee that? How? Do you understand that even on a structural level people respond very differently to particular exercises?

Why do you believe in leaving entire bodyparts untrained until a certain arbitrary point in time? What kind of philosophy is that??

Why not AVOID DEVELOPING LAGGING BODYPARTS IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Do you understand that it takes just as long to build up the smaller muscle groups as it does the large ones? Why waste that time and energy? It makes no sense.

How could barbell curls and calf raises “take away” from the “major lifts”? And I don’t know if you’re confused or what, but in bodybuilding barbell curls and calf raises qualify as a MAJOR LIFT just as much as other lifts do. This is not powerlifting.

No, who ever suggested anything should DETRACT from any other exercise…? Why would it in the first place?

It would take your average person two years to gain 30lbs of muscle. Were you malnourished previously, or taking anabolic steroids? I’d love to see pictures of your progress along with the way you were training if you did this naturally.

It’s questioned because it arrogantly flies in the face of a century of bodybuilding trial and error, and decades of anecdotal evidence to suggest otherwise.

An exercise doesn’t “cover” a smaller muscle group just because you use that muscle group indirectly to perform the exercise. There is a difference between a muscle contracting and moving to perform an action, and exercising in a way that STIMULATES GROWTH.

My biceps are used when I do chinups and rowing, but these exercises are very poor at developing my biceps. Bench pressing, also, has not proven to be effective at making my triceps or shoulders bigger… just my chest.

I’m still waiting for pictures of people who this philosophy has actually worked on.

Because all I’m seeing is a bunch of guys making very little progress, or avoiding direct arm work and then posting on T-Nation that they have lagging arms and what should they do.

Meanwhile i see people training the way bodybuilders train and they are making progress.

Go figure.

22

[quote]mr popular wrote:
doosl wrote:

Whats wrong with someone new to weight training starting with a handful of exercises? If a beginner started with only squats, deadlifts, bench press, chins, and dips I guarantee you he’ll build a decent base of size that’s fairly proportionate. After that’s accomplished, lagging bodyparts could be addressed.

You can guarantee that? How? Do you understand that even on a structural level people respond very differently to particular exercises?

Why do you believe in leaving entire bodyparts untrained until a certain arbitrary point in time? What kind of philosophy is that??

Why not AVOID DEVELOPING LAGGING BODYPARTS IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Do you understand that it takes just as long to build up the smaller muscle groups as it does the large ones? Why waste that time and energy? It makes no sense.[/quote]

Wow. Are you for real? Do you not understand that the smaller muscle groups ARE in fact being trained by the five exercises I listed? I think you’re forgetting that we’re talking about a 145lb, 16 y/o kid who’s been lifting for less than a year. What would you suggest?

[quote]barbell curls and calf raises for newbies are fine so long as it’s supplemental and doesn’t take away from the major lifts. In fact, military press (which is a compound lift) would be an excellent exercise to incorporate into his particular routine.

How could barbell curls and calf raises “take away” from the “major lifts”? And I don’t know if you’re confused or what, but in bodybuilding barbell curls and calf raises qualify as a MAJOR LIFT just as much as other lifts do. This is not powerlifting.[/quote]

Are you intentionally misunderstanding me?

Let me see if I can make myself clear. HE’S 145LBS!! His time and energy should be invested in the exercises that’ll give the most “bang for the buck”.

That’s NOT to say that curls and calf raises should be avoided, but they shouldn’t be done IN PLACE OF the “core” lifts (such as squats, DL’s, bench, chins, and dips).

[quote]My point was that his main focus should be on the compound lifts, and anything that detracts from that should be avoided. Wouldn’t you agree?

No, who ever suggested anything should DETRACT from any other exercise…? Why would it in the first place?

Personally, I gained 30lbs of muscle in about 4-5 months time (along with massive eating).

It would take your average person two years to gain 30lbs of muscle. Were you malnourished previously, or taking anabolic steroids? I’d love to see pictures of your progress along with the way you were training if you did this naturally.[/quote]

They’re called “newbie gains”. It’s really not that uncommon.

[quote]The “handful of exercises” I listed covers all the smaller muscle groups. Why is this even questioned?

It’s questioned because it arrogantly flies in the face of a century of bodybuilding trial and error, and decades of anecdotal evidence to suggest otherwise.

An exercise doesn’t “cover” a smaller muscle group just because you use that muscle group indirectly to perform the exercise. There is a difference between a muscle contracting and moving to perform an action, and exercising in a way that STIMULATES GROWTH.

My biceps are used when I do chinups and rowing, but these exercises are very poor at developing my biceps. Bench pressing, also, has not proven to be effective at making my triceps or shoulders bigger… just my chest.

I’m still waiting for pictures of people who this philosophy has actually worked on.

Because all I’m seeing is a bunch of guys making very little progress, or avoiding direct arm work and then posting on T-Nation that they have lagging arms and what should they do.

Meanwhile i see people training the way bodybuilders train and they are making progress.

Go figure.
[/quote]

You’re an idiot.

Question; for our case in point (145lb, 16y/o beginner) which exercise will benefit more in terms of gaining mass? Chins or curls? Which should take priority?

Also, which should be more of a priority for our beginner; squats or calf raises?

It’s about priorities, that’s my friggin point.

23

Actually, I see a TON of guys training like BB’s and they all look the same from year to year. Unless they’re using gear, like the BB’s do. I was one of them.

You can’t evaluate someone’s strengths and weaknesses properly from your computer desk. You have no idea what muscles are lagging and what needs to be focused on.

Even a top-notch trainer would have his client achieve some basic level of fitness before attempting an eval.

24

[quote]doosl wrote:
mr popular wrote:

It is concerning that you don’t train your shoulders at all. haha You really should start training them for gods sake. Why would you NOT train them?

Why is that a concern? He only weighs 145lbs! Besides, all the benching he’s doing is probably good enough for now.

[/quote]

Because bench press only works the front head. If hes been working out for a year like he says then he will have a imbalance.

OP, military press.

25

Haha wooooooooow. I don’t know why I bother, but let’s see now…

[quote]doosl wrote:
Wow. Are you for real? Do you not understand that the smaller muscle groups ARE in fact being trained by the five exercises I listed? I think you’re forgetting that we’re talking about a 145lb, 16 y/o kid who’s been lifting for less than a year. What would you suggest?[/quote]

Like I’ve said before, I would suggest a beginner start out with all of the basic bodybuilding exercises and not leave any muscle group out.

I understand that there are authors on this website and others that will tell you that doing bench presses and dips is “good enough” to hit your entire chest, shoulders, and triceps… but for 99% of people this is not true. In fact, take a look at those authors… Does it look like the methods they are putting out there are working for them? What about any of their clients?

Ignoring that fact is only going to lead to lagging bodyparts in the future.

The OP is a beginner at 145lbs, obviously. So he needs to eat enough to gain, and learn ALL of the basic exercises, not just some arbitrary bare minimum.

[quote]Are you intentionally misunderstanding me?

Let me see if I can make myself clear. HE’S 145LBS!! His time and energy should be invested in the exercises that’ll give the most “bang for the buck”.

That’s NOT to say that curls and calf raises should be avoided, but they shouldn’t be done IN PLACE OF the “core” lifts (such as squats, DL’s, bench, chins, and dips). [/quote]

Let me see if I can make it any clearer:

NO ONE, NOT ME, ANYONE IN THIS THREAD, OR ANYBODY ANYWHERE IS SUGGESTING THAT THESE EXERCISES SHOULD BE DONE IN PLACE OF ANY OTHERS, AND NOBODY EVER HAS SUGGESTED THIS.

I have no idea where you got this notion that i was saying you should do curls and calf raises instead of squats and bench pressing and everything else haha but that is the most ridiculous misunderstanding and i wonder if you even read what i wrote.

Here is what I wrote:
“No, who ever suggested anything should DETRACT from any other exercise…? Why would it in the first place?”
"How could barbell curls and calf raises “take away” from the “major lifts”? And I don’t know if you’re confused or what, but in bodybuilding barbell curls and calf raises qualify as a MAJOR LIFT just as much as other lifts do. This is not powerlifting. "
“Why not AVOID DEVELOPING LAGGING BODYPARTS IN THE FIRST PLACE?”

…you seemed to miss this the first time

[quote]You’re an idiot.

Question; for our case in point (145lb, 16y/o beginner) which exercise will benefit more in terms of gaining mass? Chins or curls? Which should take priority?

Also, which should be more of a priority for our beginner; squats or calf raises?

It’s about priorities, that’s my friggin point.
[/quote]

For someone looking to get into bodybuilding, every muscle group is a priority. You put more time and energy into squats because thighs are a bigger muscle group and the exercise is more exhausting, but that doesn’t mean you neglect your calves.

Like I said, this is NOT powerlifting… this is bodybuilding we are talking about, and in bodybuilding every muscle group needs to be brought up in order for there to be a “base” of mass, and you aren’t going to achieve this by ignoring staple exercises.

26

quite the shitstorm going on in here. Let’s reach a compromise.

Beginners obviously need to first and foremost build strength in the big lifts, using isolations to finish off a workout for the muscle groups used that day. It makes sense, As long as you’re adding weights and reps to the bar without neglecting anything you’re golden. I don’t see how there is any disagreement here. Yet again, if I had a friend who wanted to compete in a powerlifting meet I’d set up his routine differently then someone who wanted to be a bodybuilder. I would probably use starting strength to get them to learn the basic compounds quickly, but after a few weeks it’d be onto a different routine.

27

[quote]droozie wrote:
im not pleased with my current workout routine / diet, but i just dont know what to do, ive read up on plenty articles but all i need is a straight answer

im 16 years old, and weigh 145 pounds, and have been lifting for a little less than a year

i wanna stop my routine, but im so confused on how much i should eat and how much i should work out because there is so many different opinions im not sure what to think, my workouts are so time consuming too and im sure there is way better stuff out there that’s less time consuming

i also have bony ass shoulders, and little knowledge of good back or ab workouts

im sure regulars to this forum find posts like this to be redundant, but i could use some advice with somebody whos been in my shoes before

[/quote]

Gotta tell ya, bro… if you are looking to gain size, you need to eat in proportion to your workouts. If your training intensity is high, and you are lifting heavy, it won’t amount to squat without eating.

What’s worked for me and workout partners is to look at diet first before routine. If you think your diet is sound, and you really want to “fix” your training regimen, your routine(s) is not bad. Place MUCH more emphasis (intensity / energy) on the compound movements and larger muscle groups first, and use isolations just to “finish off” smaller groups (bi’s, tri’s, calves, etc.).

28

lol

Either you’re intentionally misunderstanding or you’re borderline retarded.

My point in saying that isolation-type exercises shouldn’t be a priority was to clarify MY position. I never accused anyone of saying that isolation exercises should be done in place of compound lifts. I was suggesting that this could happen with a newbie who enjoys curls and pressdowns more. You seem to think that I’m anti-isolation or something simply because I recommended the OP focus on the major compound lifts.

As long as the core lifts have been executed with the proper duration and intensity for his needs, then there’s absolutely nothing wrong with supplementing the workout with isolation exercises, so long as it doesn’t lead to overtraining.

One potential problem could be that he’s so eager to get to curls and pressdowns that he hurries through the squats or DL’s with less than optimal intensity, or does them first and then half-heartedly moves on to the compound movements. Hypothetical? Yes, but I used to see it all the time at the gym. In fact, that’s exactly what I used to do. It wasn’t until I started focusing on performing the major compound movements with proper form and intensity that I made my best gains.

Does that clarify my position for you?

29

[quote]doosl wrote:
mr popular wrote:

lol

Either you’re intentionally misunderstanding or you’re borderline retarded.

My point in saying that isolation-type exercises shouldn’t be a priority was to clarify MY position. I never accused anyone of saying that isolation exercises should be done in place of compound lifts. I was suggesting that this could happen with a newbie who enjoys curls and pressdowns more. You seem to think that I’m anti-isolation or something simply because I recommended the OP focus on the major compound lifts.

As long as the core lifts have been executed with the proper duration and intensity for his needs, then there’s absolutely nothing wrong with supplementing the workout with isolation exercises, so long as it doesn’t lead to overtraining.

One potential problem could be that he’s so eager to get to curls and pressdowns that he hurries through the squats or DL’s with less than optimal intensity, or does them first and then half-heartedly moves on to the compound movements. Hypothetical? Yes, but I used to see it all the time at the gym. In fact, that’s exactly what I used to do. It wasn’t until I started focusing on performing the major compound movements with proper form and intensity that I made my best gains.

Does that clarify my position for you? [/quote]

haha you didn’t say that anywhere, and you didn’t gain thirty pounds of muscle in five months.

30

[quote]eeu743 wrote:

haha you didn’t say that anywhere, and you didn’t gain thirty pounds of muscle in five months.[/quote]

And who are you? mr populars boyfriend/girlfriend?

If it wasn’t clear before it is now. And is it so hard to believe that a newbie can gain 30lbs in five months? You must be really disappointed with yourself…

31

Nobody said you couldn’t gain 30 pounds in five months.

But you didn’t gain 30 pounds of muscle in five months.

32

It figures that at least two geniuses have solved this kid’s problem and he never mentioned how many sets or reps he does.

Original poster, you seem to be hitting mostly all muscle groups. If you’re stalled out try mixing up the reps. Week one do 4 sets of 10, week two do 5 sets of 5, week three do 3 sets of 15, repeat. Do as much weight as possible and still hit those reps. It’ll work.