If You're Not Lean Under 200 Lbs....

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

That’s my point, then I see posts like this:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
The honest truth is that if you’re only at 200lbs and already putting on a lot of fat at 6’3 your diet needs improvement and you need to lift harder. [/quote]

How can a statement like that be made when you don’t know anything about the lifter? I see this type of comment a lot. I’m just saying, that doesn’t hold true for everyone and just because someone is putting on fat at a certain weight doesn’t mean they’re necesarilly eating poorly or not training hard. I agree with your above post.[/quote]

Your progress tells us quite a bit about you. You are 6’3". That means where you are now is about where I was relatively at only 150-170lbs at 5’10.5". If I was gaining a ton of fat at only 170lbs it would mean my diet was fucked up or I was not training anywhere near as intensely as I thought I was.

Even with average genetics, you should be able to hit around 220lbs without much of a problem. Do you understand that 6’3" is considered to be VERY tall?

Of course there are those with poorer genetics, however the truth is, MOST people are not in that group. They simply never learn how to train anything like the guys thought to have better genetics.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

That’s my point, then I see posts like this:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
The honest truth is that if you’re only at 200lbs and already putting on a lot of fat at 6’3 your diet needs improvement and you need to lift harder. [/quote]

How can a statement like that be made when you don’t know anything about the lifter? I see this type of comment a lot. I’m just saying, that doesn’t hold true for everyone and just because someone is putting on fat at a certain weight doesn’t mean they’re necesarilly eating poorly or not training hard. I agree with your above post.[/quote]

Your progress tells us quite a bit about you. You are 6’3". That means where you are now is about where I was relatively at only 150-170lbs at 5’10.5". If I was gaining a ton of fat at only 170lbs it would mean my diet was fucked up or I was not training anywhere near as intensely as I thought I was.

Even with average genetics, you should be able to hit around 220lbs without much of a problem. Do you understand that 6’3" is considered to be VERY tall?

Of course there are those with poorer genetics, however the truth is, MOST people are not in that group. They simply never learn how to train anything like the guys thought to have better genetics.[/quote]

I hit 220 while carb cycling, and i’m around 6’2-3. Not exactly lean, but not too far off.

^Note i was trying to diet down here. I actually ended up gaining weight, i just didn’t realize exactly how much food i wasn’t getting.

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

That’s my point, then I see posts like this:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
The honest truth is that if you’re only at 200lbs and already putting on a lot of fat at 6’3 your diet needs improvement and you need to lift harder. [/quote]

How can a statement like that be made when you don’t know anything about the lifter? I see this type of comment a lot. I’m just saying, that doesn’t hold true for everyone and just because someone is putting on fat at a certain weight doesn’t mean they’re necesarilly eating poorly or not training hard. I agree with your above post.

[/quote]

Do you really expect me to defend that statement? I stand by it 100%. But to clear things up where I said “and” should have been “and/or”. And my definition of fat is when you no longer look like you lift weights while wearing a proper fitting shirt. If you cant see your dick, youre obese.

The fact of the matter is that you are making every excuse possible to keep yourself from making progress. Not only that but you are shoving in peoples faces unsolicited via starting this thread.

You choose to only lift 4 days a week, when you could easily do more, and simply claim that “it doesnt matter much”. Then you say you dont do cardio “because it doesnt matter much”. Guess what. When you combine a few things that dont matter much they start mattering a lot more. The only thing we don’t know about you is your diet. But I feel like it would be safe to assume that you aren’t doing everything in your power to make progress.

How much stronger have you gotten in your primary lifts for each muscle group in the past 10-12 weeks?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Your progress tells us quite a bit about you. You are 6’3". That means where you are now is about where I was relatively at only 150-170lbs at 5’10.5". If I was gaining a ton of fat at only 170lbs it would mean my diet was fucked up or I was not training anywhere near as intensely as I thought I was.

Even with average genetics, you should be able to hit around 220lbs without much of a problem. Do you understand that 6’3" is considered to be VERY tall?

Of course there are those with poorer genetics, however the truth is, MOST people are not in that group. They simply never learn how to train anything like the guys thought to have better genetics.[/quote]

Did you read the first post? I’m 6’0", that quoted post wasn’t directed at me.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

Do you really expect me to defend that statement? I stand by it 100%. But to clear things up where I said “and” should have been “and/or”. And my definition of fat is when you no longer look like you lift weights while wearing a proper fitting shirt. If you cant see your dick, youre obese.

The fact of the matter is that you are making every excuse possible to keep yourself from making progress. Not only that but you are shoving in peoples faces unsolicited via starting this thread.

You choose to only lift 4 days a week, when you could easily do more, and simply claim that “it doesnt matter much”. Then you say you dont do cardio “because it doesnt matter much”. Guess what. When you combine a few things that dont matter much they start mattering a lot more. The only thing we don’t know about you is your diet. But I feel like it would be safe to assume that you aren’t doing everything in your power to make progress.

How much stronger have you gotten in your primary lifts for each muscle group in the past 10-12 weeks? [/quote]

My progress is fine. I have gained a decent amount on pretty much ALL of my lifts in the past 10-12 weeks. This thread isn’t just about my progress. I just upped calories with more healthy food because I stopped gaining weight for 2 weeks so, yes, I am doing what I can to progress.

As I mentioned I did cardio for 3+ years, when I stopped the results weren’t that different so I’m in a pretty good position to make that judgement call for ME.

I haven’t made any excuses as to why I can’t progress, because I CAN progress. The muscle just comes with a lot of fat, as I’ve said probably 20 times in this thread. To make blanket statements that someone who is gaining fat under 200lb. without knowing anything about them is just ridiculous in my opinion

Ah ok, lol well i kinda lost your point in the midst of all the ‘points’ getting tossed around out there lol. but yes, fat is something that we just have to deal with. It will be minimal if your diet is in check though. This may not apply to you then if you were just posing explanations, but if one doesnt use bulking as an excuse to eat like a lardass, then one will not become a lardass. I mean, They will put on fat, because when it boils down to it, thats a quick way to check that we are intaking enough in our diet. So basically, the fat serves its purpose. If one’s key concern is how fat they are becoming, they arent meant to body build. You just have to have learn how to eat.
And yea, Nasser is amazing. The man was offering to help to me, tell me what to get, where to get it, when to take it. I have all this fantastic information about diet and roids from him. Fact is though, im still 23, and i dont want to consider roids til about 26 or so, mainly because my natural levels are fine and im still growing at a decent rate, no need to rush into them.

Has anyone seen stats for OP’s big 3? I think those would help us greatly…

[quote]joe shumsky wrote:

it is what it is.
[/quote]

Aren’t you like 150lbs and just made a thread bitching about your own lack of progress? Maybe your way isn’t the best, and you should stop handing out advice, because based on your own results and actions you don’t know wtf you are talking about.

I went from 185 to 240 in 18 months, and if 20% is now fat, the fact I look like I lift weights in a shirt, and now can see abs starting to show, yet weight close to 100lbs more than you, means gaining some extra fat while tripling my bench, adding 400lbs to my pull and squatting 3 plates and fucking up my leg in the process was well worth me being fat. (Also understand that 6 of those months have been tax season. That is 80 work weeks, and lifting 3 days a week just to maintain.)

My employers have straight threatened my job because they were convinced I was on gear. Now, because I explained teh situation and don’t get “roid rage” they joke around about it. I wear a suit to work. Shit if getting fat means I’m starting to stand out in a crowd in a fucking suit, then it is worth getting fat.

Fuck I am so sick of the fucking estrogen on this board.

My point is, you are going to gain some fat. If you aren’t a total dipshit you don’t have to gain a ton. No one is telling anyone to get fat. If 20% is too much for you, good luck standing out in a crowd as a natural, because it is going to take you 40 years to grow.

Ah, but I forgot, everyone has shitty genetics, that is teh problem, can’t be his training or diet…

Fuck I just wasted like 5 mins on a post no one is going to pay attention to, or has been said like 6,000 fucking times.

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
How is it hard to get to 200 lbs while semi lean? It took me about 2-2.5 years to get there, and most of that time I was very ignorant of “proper” training/eating. But I worked hard, ate a lot, and got there. FWIW I’m only 5’7"-5’8", so there’s no excuse for you non-midget people. [/quote]

I’m fucking fist pumping over here…

YES! I finally have something on you, you short son of a bitch…

lol

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]joe shumsky wrote:

it is what it is.
[/quote]

Aren’t you like 150lbs and just made a thread bitching about your own lack of progress? Maybe your way isn’t the best, and you should stop handing out advice, because based on your own results and actions you don’t know wtf you are talking about.

I went from 185 to 240 in 18 months, and if 20% is now fat, the fact I look like I lift weights in a shirt, and now can see abs starting to show, yet weight close to 100lbs more than you, means gaining some extra fat while tripling my bench, adding 400lbs to my pull and squatting 3 plates and fucking up my leg in the process was well worth me being fat. (Also understand that 6 of those months have been tax season. That is 80 work weeks, and lifting 3 days a week just to maintain.)

My employers have straight threatened my job because they were convinced I was on gear. Now, because I explained teh situation and don’t get “roid rage” they joke around about it. I wear a suit to work. Shit if getting fat means I’m starting to stand out in a crowd in a fucking suit, then it is worth getting fat.

Fuck I am so sick of the fucking estrogen on this board.

My point is, you are going to gain some fat. If you aren’t a total dipshit you don’t have to gain a ton. No one is telling anyone to get fat. If 20% is too much for you, good luck standing out in a crowd as a natural, because it is going to take you 40 years to grow.

Ah, but I forgot, everyone has shitty genetics, that is teh problem, can’t be his training or diet…

Fuck I just wasted like 5 mins on a post no one is going to pay attention to, or has been said like 6,000 fucking times.[/quote]

WTF it’s X 2.0!

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
Has anyone seen stats for OP’s big 3? I think those would help us greatly…[/quote]

It was in the first post. I’ve benched over 315, deadlifted 450 but my back keeps getting fucked up so it keeps going down every time I get back to that point so now it’s around 415, and on Thursday I squated 315 for 17 reps.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

My point is, you are going to gain some fat. If you aren’t a total dipshit you don’t have to gain a ton. No one is telling anyone to get fat. If 20% is too much for you, good luck standing out in a crowd as a natural, because it is going to take you 40 years to grow.
[/quote]

EXACTLY. THAT is my point. That some people do have to get a little “fat” to make significant gains. I’m sure PX would even agree with that as he’s said it before. That’s why I don’t like the statement that someone is doing it wrong if they’re gaining significant fat below a certain weight.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
How is it hard to get to 200 lbs while semi lean? It took me about 2-2.5 years to get there, and most of that time I was very ignorant of “proper” training/eating. But I worked hard, ate a lot, and got there. FWIW I’m only 5’7"-5’8", so there’s no excuse for you non-midget people. [/quote]

I’m fucking fist pumping over here…

YES! I finally have something on you, you short son of a bitch…

lol[/quote]

Don’t worry, they never give me a break about it when I post new DL PRs on the FB boi…

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:
Has anyone seen stats for OP’s big 3? I think those would help us greatly…[/quote]

It was in the first post. I’ve benched over 315, deadlifted 450 but my back keeps getting fucked up so it keeps going down every time I get back to that point so now it’s around 415, and on Thursday I squated 315 for 17 reps.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

My point is, you are going to gain some fat. If you aren’t a total dipshit you don’t have to gain a ton. No one is telling anyone to get fat. If 20% is too much for you, good luck standing out in a crowd as a natural, because it is going to take you 40 years to grow.
[/quote]

EXACTLY. THAT is my point. That some people do have to get a little “fat” to make significant gains. I’m sure PX would even agree with that as he’s said it before. That’s why I don’t like the statement that someone is doing it wrong if they’re gaining significant fat below a certain weight. [/quote]

I would honestly like to see vids of these lifts. Especially the squatting depth.

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Your progress tells us quite a bit about you. You are 6’3". That means where you are now is about where I was relatively at only 150-170lbs at 5’10.5". If I was gaining a ton of fat at only 170lbs it would mean my diet was fucked up or I was not training anywhere near as intensely as I thought I was.

Even with average genetics, you should be able to hit around 220lbs without much of a problem. Do you understand that 6’3" is considered to be VERY tall?

Of course there are those with poorer genetics, however the truth is, MOST people are not in that group. They simply never learn how to train anything like the guys thought to have better genetics.[/quote]

Did you read the first post? I’m 6’0", that quoted post wasn’t directed at me.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

Do you really expect me to defend that statement? I stand by it 100%. But to clear things up where I said “and” should have been “and/or”. And my definition of fat is when you no longer look like you lift weights while wearing a proper fitting shirt. If you cant see your dick, youre obese.

The fact of the matter is that you are making every excuse possible to keep yourself from making progress. Not only that but you are shoving in peoples faces unsolicited via starting this thread.

You choose to only lift 4 days a week, when you could easily do more, and simply claim that “it doesnt matter much”. Then you say you dont do cardio “because it doesnt matter much”. Guess what. When you combine a few things that dont matter much they start mattering a lot more. The only thing we don’t know about you is your diet. But I feel like it would be safe to assume that you aren’t doing everything in your power to make progress.

How much stronger have you gotten in your primary lifts for each muscle group in the past 10-12 weeks? [/quote]

My progress is fine. I have gained a decent amount on pretty much ALL of my lifts in the past 10-12 weeks. This thread isn’t just about my progress. I just upped calories with more healthy food because I stopped gaining weight for 2 weeks so, yes, I am doing what I can to progress.

As I mentioned I did cardio for 3+ years, when I stopped the results weren’t that different so I’m in a pretty good position to make that judgement call for ME.

I haven’t made any excuses as to why I can’t progress, because I CAN progress. The muscle just comes with a lot of fat, as I’ve said probably 20 times in this thread. To make blanket statements that someone who is gaining fat under 200lb. without knowing anything about them is just ridiculous in my opinion[/quote]

Acceptable fat gain is relative. I don’t think it’s ridiculous for someone who’s tall (6’) to be able to easily get to 200+ pounds while looking like they lift weights the whole time (obviously not if they start out at 140 but those first 30pounds should fly on). Most of the time statements like the one you quoted me saying in another thread DO apply. If theres anything to take from this site it’s that almost no one who is stalling early is working as hard as possible.

I don’t expect people to work as hard as possible 365 days a year, life happens. But too many people dont understand what hard work in the gym and kicthen is. In some cases ‘hard work’ means doing three 30minute cardio sessions on off days in addition to the 1 or 2 sessions on training days. For me, hard work is and always will be battling my shit appetite.

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

My point is, you are going to gain some fat. If you aren’t a total dipshit you don’t have to gain a ton. No one is telling anyone to get fat. If 20% is too much for you, good luck standing out in a crowd as a natural, because it is going to take you 40 years to grow.
[/quote]

EXACTLY. THAT is my point. That some people do have to get a little “fat” to make significant gains. I’m sure PX would even agree with that as he’s said it before. That’s why I don’t like the statement that someone is doing it wrong if they’re gaining significant fat below a certain weight. [/quote]

Alright

Now youre jut disagreeing over different degrees of the same thing. This is a debate in semantics at this point.

‘Getting fat’ and gaining fat mass while gaining muscle mass are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. I’m done here. Hopefully that makes my perspective clearer.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

Acceptable fat gain is relative. I don’t think it’s ridiculous for someone who’s tall (6’) to be able to easily get to 200+ pounds while looking like they lift weights the whole time (obviously not if they start out at 140 but those first 30pounds should fly on). Most of the time statements like the one you quoted me saying in another thread DO apply. If theres anything to take from this site it’s that almost no one who is stalling early is working as hard as possible.

I don’t expect people to work as hard as possible 365 days a year, life happens. But too many people dont understand what hard work in the gym and kicthen is. In some cases ‘hard work’ means doing three 30minute cardio sessions on off days in addition to the 1 or 2 sessions on training days. For me, hard work is and always will be battling my shit appetite. [/quote]

I appreciate the non-hostile response lol. As you mentioned “obviously not if they start out at 140”, I started at 130 so there we have it. What you say may apply in most cases because most average people starting this probably start around 165-185 so 200 is not as big of a big jump. And speaking from a personal standpoint I have seriously stubborn fat. I’ve been at a point where I did a 16 week cut, gradually lowering calories and carbs while keeping strength, getting up to two 45 minute cardio sessions per day, and still only reaching something like 11%. I don’t use that as an excuse, it’s just the unfortunate truth.

Hello pumped:

How much weight did you loose during your 16 week cut, and what was your starting bf guestimate? Did you look jacked when you started? I’m 5 8" and have got near 220 pounds before (now breaking that milestone this year),
I wasn’t that fat, and I didn’t like how I looked when I dropped the weight.

Is that the only cut you’ve made? I know you’ve heard that people tends to underestime the weight they have to loose to look defined, but maybe you just needed to loose more to look good. Well, if you got to a legit 11% it doesn’t look so sucky.

You’re 6’ right? How much are you weighing right now? You need to be a solid 235 to look good when you drop, not contest shape but defined.

Could I have a detailed description of the process of your cut? I don’t wanna sound bad, but saying “I gradually lowered calories and kept strength” doesn’t cover all the points where flaws could be found. Everybody can browse and find that.How long did your phases last? What kind of diet or diets did you use and at which point of the cut? What about fat burners? Which ones did you use? Did you cycle them or just stayed on a daily dosage? You did low cardio the straight 16 weeks? Did you assign periodical “break periods”?

I didn’t come to insult you and I want to help. I hope you input at least part of the data I asked.

[quote]MEYMZ wrote:
Hello pumped:

How much weight did you loose during your 16 week cut, and what was your starting bf guestimate? Did you look jacked when you started? I’m 5 8" and have got near 220 pounds before (now breaking that milestone this year),
I wasn’t that fat, and I didn’t like how I looked when I dropped the weight.

Is that the only cut you’ve made? I know you’ve heard that people tends to underestime the weight they have to loose to look defined, but maybe you just needed to loose more to look good. Well, if you got to a legit 11% it doesn’t look so sucky.

You’re 6’ right? How much are you weighing right now? You need to be a solid 235 to look good when you drop, not contest shape but defined.

Could I have a detailed description of the process of your cut? I don’t wanna sound bad, but saying “I gradually lowered calories and kept strength” doesn’t cover all the points where flaws could be found. Everybody can browse and find that.How long did your phases last? What kind of diet or diets did you use and at which point of the cut? What about fat burners? Which ones did you use? Did you cycle them or just stayed on a daily dosage? You did low cardio the straight 16 weeks? Did you assign periodical “break periods”?

I didn’t come to insult you and I want to help. I hope you input at least part of the data I asked.

[/quote]

lots of questions in there lol. I do plan on doing it differently next time but like I said it’s kind of sad that even working up to 2/day cardio sessions and probably averaging 2200 calories at the time I only got to 11%. I was thinking I needed to try to lose faster since it seemed to drag on but thinking about it I did lose about 1 pound per week, so not ridiculously slow. I did need to lose more to get leaner (obviously lol) but figured I would just get back to gaining at that point. That’s the thing with cutting, honestly even though I may technically have 35lb of fat or so (18% x 198lb) I would need to probably lose 30lb to get to 8% or so. That would be about 22lb. of fat loss and 8lb. of water/glycogen and honestly that’s probably not estimating high enough for the amount of water/glycogen.

As for what I did, other than what was mentioned, I basically followed the principles of “Burn the fat, feed the muscle” as this was the first serious cutting approach I had heard of at the time. Basically just carb cycling with 3 low days followed by 1 high days. It worked and I didn’t really seem to lose much muscle but more fat needed to be lose. Life pretty much sucked at that time though lol…seriously though, I was incredibly tired all the time… Waking up at 5am for cardio, working out when I got home, and then doing more cardio all on 2200 calories will do that to you lol.

As I mentioned above, when I cut this next time around I’ll probably have to lose a good 25lb or so to get to where I’d want to be (maybe 10% or so)

pumped,

have you tried switching from a split routine to a full body routine? Whenever I want to lose weight I switch to full body and it pours off me…

OP you should post pics

if i may respond to my detractors…

professor x, i don’t know you… and nor do i pretend to. but i’ve read enough of your posts to find this particular response a little ironic, especially coming from you. you’re a smart guy… think about it.

countingbeans, i’m not sure whether you actually read that other thread you brought up or not, but at no point whatsoever was i complaining about a lack of progress. i’m in the best shape of my life at 31 and, as far as i can tell, now that i’ve discovered what works for me, and what doesn’t, my condition is only going to improve. the thread you mentioned was made because i was seeking advice about some joint pain that i’ve been having recently… as a result of training as hard as possible/as frequently as possible. if anything, i’m mentally capable of pushing myself harder than my body can recover from… so sue me.

the reason i jumped in on this thread is because i AM a smaller guy… and i know all too well how difficult it can be to reach your physique goals when your genetics are fighting you each and every step of the way. i guess i shouldn’t be that surprised when people to which this whole bodybuilding thing comes relatively easily don’t understand… how could they?

i would also like to take this opportunity to point out the fact that frank zane WON the olympia at a weight of 175 lbs… so, am i to assume that most here would consider mr. zane a bodybuilding failure? get some perspective.