If You're Not Lean Under 200 Lbs....

Training Bodybuilding
261

[quote]FattyFat wrote:
Yeah, yeah, I guess pumped got the message.
It’s funny how all those lickspittles and yes-men seem to come out of hiding to step on the bandwagon.

Out of curiousity, pumped: how much sleep do you get in average per night. Let me rephrase that: would you say you get enough sleep?

Now, the following is only tangential to your concerns, but maybe I’m somehow on the right track with this:
in the first half of 2009, I was doing about 8-10 cardio sessions (50:50 SS vs IV) and lifted about 4 times a week. And I wasn’t making any decent headway in terms of fat loss, although my daily caloric intake had been below 2000 kcal. And I only slept 3-4 h a night. Now, my progress never stalled out: my HIIT got better from session to session and my lifting numbers were on the up and up. So, IMHO, training progress alone isn’t a surefire indicator for fat loss.

Another anecdote: all things equal, my body tends to accumulate fat if it’s become too stressed:
-lack of sleep
-hard and progressive training
-yadda yadda yadda

Also: stimulants (ephedrine/ephedra/yohimbine) mean additional stress for your body.

Let’s try to inject some good vibrations into this thread, shall we? Peace and love. Or my fist.

And the ProX got a point.
[/quote]

One thing im still completely not getting enough of… sleep. The gf keeps me up too much at night :wink:

In all seriousness, i must average 6 hours on week nights. Bed by 2am, up at 8-ish to go to the gym for 9 usually. Plus my work and uni hours are fucking me atm. You know how you have to adjust your body clock to fit everything in. Its been almost 2 weeks. REALLY am going to start concentrating on this BUT its been so fucking hot here, its hard to sleep. We had over 40 days over 40 degrees (celsius) this summer.

My gym partner sleeps like a log, at least 9 hrs a day. Hes growing like a fucking weed. And slowly is beginning to fly away. Never will i allow him to be 10kg more than me on the bench, squat or in bodyweight is what ive vowed. Haha.

He weighs bout 96kgs, and beats me by 10kgs on bench and squat. And an inch to his arms. He also sleeps more. Hmm… i wonder whether… no… could it be?? Faaaark.

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[quote]FattyFat wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]pro-a-ggression wrote:
March 2009 - 190lbs[/quote]

Keep it up, man. You have a shit load of steaks in front of you to get to where you need to be.[/quote]
Hey, aggy!
Steak is cool, but I’d like to let you in on a secret: QUARK.
Be seeing you.

pumped, show some pics. I really can’t imagine you’ve got nothing to show after a few years of training. Hard.

Lanky! Yo, Lanky!
Where you been, man?
The forum floors don’t mop themselves!

[/quote]

Haha aggy. WTF? I feel like an old lady when you call me that. Agatha. Did you remember to go to the potty today agatha? Oops, did you do a poopy? I think you diiiiiddd!!

On another front. whats the nutritional value of quark? Its a cheese right?? Ive got work now but ill be on later and you can divuldge you LOVE for quark to me.

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[quote]pumped340 wrote:

I’d be open to ideas but I’ve already tried not drinking a few hours before sleeping, covering my eyes so no light comes in and taking Mg+Ca+Zn pills (Mg is supposed to help, although apparently it competes with one of the other substances listed I think)

[/quote]

mate its calcium (Ca) that competes.

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[quote]Mr octurbo wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

I’d be open to ideas but I’ve already tried not drinking a few hours before sleeping, covering my eyes so no light comes in and taking Mg+Ca+Zn pills (Mg is supposed to help, although apparently it competes with one of the other substances listed I think)

[/quote]

mate its calcium (Ca) that competes.[/quote]

Supposedly it does, but I think one should take these warnings with a “pinch of salt”. It doesn’t mean that these minerals are useless taken together, just that taking in high doses of calcium diminishes zinc absorption. There’s plenty things in nature where these two compounds come together (e.g. wheat).

It’s like when they said that you shouldn’t take creatine with caffeine - I do it all the time but it doesn’t make a noticeable difference as far as I can tell.

OP - As far as rest is concerned, bad sleep can be an indicator of stress, and stress can cause bad sleep (as mentioned before, a viscous circle). One thing has got to give. You mentioned earlier that after about 4-5 weeks you take a deload; I’m guessing that this seems to be the optimal time period for your lifts/workload? So in essence, what you’re doing is reducing the intensity. Always, what I’ve found is that you can’t replace the bodies need for rest just by reducing intensity/volume…it’s far more effective to alter the frequency (at least short term). So, periods of high frequency (the amount required for good muscle growth) alternated with lower frequency (enough to maintain strength) would work better for hormone balance and recovery compared to just temporarily reducing the volume/intensity. You have to remember that with a deload, although you’ve reduced the intensity, you’re still stimulating the same stress hormones/response (although to a lessor degree). You’re body will bounce back much better after complete rest (e.g. lower frequency for a period).

So, say for example, you would normally deload after 4-5 weeks, maybe you could have a week where you only workout 3 times per week, or just take 3-5 days off before pushing ahead again for several weeks. You’ll find that your “intensity cycle” lasts longer from taking time off compared to just lowering the volume/intensity for a while.

Having said all that, I think that for the natural trainee who’s EATING and RESTING enough, they shouldn’t require deloads/time off very often (maybe every 8 weeks or so). As far as training is concerned, the higher the intensity/volume, the more frequent the breaks.

265

Sleep may be an issue for me as well. I only average 6 hours per night. My internal clock wakes me up every morning around 3 am. Even after partying. My Obama avatar was from my trip in Vegas last weekend - Yes drinking , partying and gambling (big no no) but even after a few drinks I’m up before the crack of dawn. Hangover be damned!!!

266

Granted, I didn’t read this whole thread. Just the first and last page.

17-18% is not “relatively lean.” It’s relatively fat.

I used to have a lot of trouble sleeping and I was about 20% fat too, with a “perfect” diet. I thought it was great. It was perfect, only in the sense it was totally wrong for my body. It sounds to me like your carbs are too low and your protein and fat are too high. I only have trouble sleeping like that now when I get really glycogen depleted before a carb-up for example.

Also, I personally believe it is wrong to complain about the body fat when are you doing nothing about it. Cardio levels and types are extremely individual, and if you are that fat but don’t want to be and aren’t doing something about it, then I don’t care how “dedicated” you CLAIM to be.

267

[quote]ksommer wrote:
Granted, I didn’t read this whole thread. Just the first and last page.

17-18% is not “relatively lean.” It’s relatively fat.

I used to have a lot of trouble sleeping and I was about 20% fat too, with a “perfect” diet. I thought it was great. It was perfect, only in the sense it was totally wrong for my body. It sounds to me like your carbs are too low and your protein and fat are too high. I only have trouble sleeping like that now when I get really glycogen depleted before a carb-up for example.

Also, I personally believe it is wrong to complain about the body fat when are you doing nothing about it. Cardio levels and types are extremely individual, and if you are that fat but don’t want to be and aren’t doing something about it, then I don’t care how “dedicated” you CLAIM to be.[/quote]

Lol, dude it depends on the individual. 17% may be fat on some people, but on others not so much.

I’m not saying the kid is stage ready, just stop calling someone @ 17% fat without seeing a picture before you give someone reading this thread an eating disorder.

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[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]ksommer wrote:
Granted, I didn’t read this whole thread. Just the first and last page.

17-18% is not “relatively lean.” It’s relatively fat.

I used to have a lot of trouble sleeping and I was about 20% fat too, with a “perfect” diet. I thought it was great. It was perfect, only in the sense it was totally wrong for my body. It sounds to me like your carbs are too low and your protein and fat are too high. I only have trouble sleeping like that now when I get really glycogen depleted before a carb-up for example.

Also, I personally believe it is wrong to complain about the body fat when are you doing nothing about it. Cardio levels and types are extremely individual, and if you are that fat but don’t want to be and aren’t doing something about it, then I don’t care how “dedicated” you CLAIM to be.[/quote]

Lol, dude it depends on the individual. 17% may be fat on some people, but on others not so much.

I’m not saying the kid is stage ready, just stop calling someone @ 17% fat without seeing a picture before you give someone reading this thread an eating disorder.[/quote]

x 2 on this.
We need to see some pics to do a real assessment. Personally, I have never thought bodyfat % is a good indicator to go by unless you’re looking to drastically lose weight. I’d much rather go by the mirror and pictures, they are
much better indicators of progress.

This being said, it would be really nice to get some pics.

269

For those that have trouble sleeping, one thing I found really helped was getting into a routine, and going to bed at the same time every night and having about 30 mins of relaxation before trying to snooze. I realise its not possible for everyone with their liftestyles etc, but if you keep it in your mind that you want to be in bed by say 10.00, then read, or listen to some classical music for half an hour, then go to sleep, I find my sleep patterns adjust quite fast.

270

Wait… Getting up to piss is considered interrupted/bad sleep? I thought that was normal. Happens to me at least once a night.
I don’t really think that type of interruption should be a concern pumped. I think it’s more so your room-mates coming in at 3 AM piss drunk and breaking things trying to make it to their bed or bringing screamers back to the room.

[quote]Anonymas wrote:
For those that have trouble sleeping, one thing I found really helped was getting into a routine, and going to bed at the same time every night and having about 30 mins of relaxation before trying to snooze. I realise its not possible for everyone with their liftestyles etc, but if you keep it in your mind that you want to be in bed by say 10.00, then read, or listen to some classical music for half an hour, then go to sleep, I find my sleep patterns adjust quite fast.[/quote]

Agreed! Whatever you do, don’t play video games… Too much stimulation.

Edited.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:

Bullshit. The main problem most of these people have is the inability to do what all of those “idiots” before them figured out from day one. Every jackass logging in talking about “training their CNS” is trying to SOUND smart over the internet when the most basic most powerful issue is missed completely.

Lolll thats why I love my screen name :slight_smile:

272

[quote]ksommer wrote:
Granted, I didn’t read this whole thread. Just the first and last page.

17-18% is not “relatively lean.” It’s relatively fat.

I used to have a lot of trouble sleeping and I was about 20% fat too, with a “perfect” diet. I thought it was great. It was perfect, only in the sense it was totally wrong for my body. It sounds to me like your carbs are too low and your protein and fat are too high. I only have trouble sleeping like that now when I get really glycogen depleted before a carb-up for example.

Also, I personally believe it is wrong to complain about the body fat when are you doing nothing about it. Cardio levels and types are extremely individual, and if you are that fat but don’t want to be and aren’t doing something about it, then I don’t care how “dedicated” you CLAIM to be.[/quote]

Bullshit. A guy weighing 280lbs at only 17% body fat would not look fat at all. They would actually look pretty lean. Someone who only weighs 145lbs at 17% could very well look fat, because they have no muscle to give their body any shape at all.

In fact, he bigger you try to get, the less chance you will get there while maintaining anywhere near single digits without significant drug use.

On top of all of that, everyone holds fat differently. I have personally shown pics on this site of someone who was 6’2" and 340lbs and clearly over 20% body fat who still had all abs showing.

273

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Just to enforce the point…I doubt most of these fuckers could last one day with me when it comes to how I eat, how I plan ahead, the focus I put into what I will be doing days in advanced, or the intensity in the gym. I am not half assing this. I eat several times a day EVERY DAMN DAY. The ONLY time I didn’t was when I was in the military training and literally couldn’t.

There are no days of me not eating anything. There are no weeks that have gone by aside from when I had surgery that I have not made it to the gym AT LEAST 4 days a week with 99% of the other weeks being the usual “6” where I take a day off when needed.

I seriously doubt all of these people crying about their progress are doing the same.

There is also no way in hell I would have ever written that it is hard to make it to the gym 4 days a week and that making it any more than that would have to wait until summer.

Someone like that is NOT very serious about this. College majors don’t have shit to do with it when I did the same thing and still made it.[/quote]

Why are you making excuses about being in the military? [/quote]

This is retarded. I made great progress while I was in the military. I just got out a little over two years ago. I am talking about TRAINING AS IN COT which is like bootcamp. Good luck making gains while having every move dictated by someone else. You need more life experience before you call anyone else out.

[quote]

You should have found a way. Bring food in your pockets. You’re clearly not intense enough :confused: it’s OK for you not to eat while in the military but I’d literally have to drop classes to workout more days per week right now and that means I’m not intense apparently. [/quote]

More ‘retardedness’.

[quote]

And now you’re bringing up non-lifting factors? I’ve eaten 6 meals per day EVERY DAY for the last 4-5 years. I had major surgery and wasn’t supposed to lift for a month and only take in liquids. I blended my fuckin food and chugged it down as a shake, 6x/day, nearly puking because of the bodily stress from the surgery, so don’t tell me I’m not dedicated.

That might sound like a dick response but seriously, I’m sure you know how annoying it is when people take away from your hard work. Right away what comes to mind as my best trait is my determination. I seriously have NEVER met in person someone even close to as dedicated to I am, especially when it comes to lifting and getting my meals in. Same could probably be said for school. How annoyed would you be if someone said you only got into xyz school because you were born with a great IQ or because you’re black? I’ve had people say I’m naturally really smart and that’s why I get straight A’s (even though I got B’s and C’s in middle school…), it’s definitely not the hours and hours of studying I do every day while they’re getting ridiculously drunk…[/quote]

I get that constantly as far as people acting like things came easy for me. That is what people do when they see someone do something that they either haven’t done or feel they can’t do.

What does this have to do with your progress in the gym? Tons of people think they are trying hard but the difference is in the results seen.

It would be like studying several weeks for exams only to still flunk. Does your hard work mean as much if you fail?

[quote]

[quote]Professor X wrote:

On some level I agree…but Pump upped the anti himself when he tried to act like I was asking for pics but hadn’t produced any myself until recently.[/quote]

From what I’ve read you only posted them recently. Maybe that was only publicly. Seriously, don’t take it so seriously. You’re the one calling me out, I’m just responding. [/quote]

No, you called ME out. You started a thread about your progress and are now acting like every post questioning your intensity is calling you out. That makes no sense. Did you not want someone to examine what you’re doing?

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Round and round we go… this thread is a waste of bandwidth.

OP: TAKE A FUCKING PICTURE ON YOUR CAMERA PHONE and post it or stop talking for the love of God!!! Please do not claim you don’t have a camera, don’t know anyone with a camera, and don’t have one on your cell.

You have made it VERY clear you believe you have done everything “right” yet still aren’t getting the desired results. Well, going from 130 to 198, while only gaining 17 lbs of fat against 51 lbs of LBM, is NOT TOO BAD, although not great as you were young and those are the most anabolic years of your life.

It is entirely USELESS to keep talking cicles around the issue if NO ONE KNOWS what type of progress you actually have made. Take a picture and go from there. If you aren’t lying about your numbers, I’ve yet to see a guy who can military 240 with small shoulders. But of course, you won’t.

And why not? Because I think you’re full of shit, you’ve made shit progress in 5 years, and are too embarrassed to own up to it now with a picture.

Prove me wrong.

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its_just_me: When I deload I also lower the frequency to generally 2 workouts that week.

[quote]ksommer wrote:
Granted, I didn’t read this whole thread. Just the first and last page.

17-18% is not “relatively lean.” It’s relatively fat.

I used to have a lot of trouble sleeping and I was about 20% fat too, with a “perfect” diet. I thought it was great. It was perfect, only in the sense it was totally wrong for my body. It sounds to me like your carbs are too low and your protein and fat are too high. I only have trouble sleeping like that now when I get really glycogen depleted before a carb-up for example.

Also, I personally believe it is wrong to complain about the body fat when are you doing nothing about it. Cardio levels and types are extremely individual, and if you are that fat but don’t want to be and aren’t doing something about it, then I don’t care how “dedicated” you CLAIM to be.[/quote]

Please show me where I complained that I was too fat. Or where I said I was “relatively lean”.

By the way, when were you 20% bf and what are you at now? You found higher carbs and lower protein helped you stay leaner? (Not saying that’s wrong, I actually gained fat much faster on very high fat/low carb diet)

And are you saying you sleep better now that you’re leaner? That hasn’t been the case with me…I know some of the bigger guys may get sleep apnea but that has yet to be an issue.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Bullshit. A guy weighing 280lbs at only 17% body fat would not look fat at all. They would actually look pretty lean. Someone who only weighs 145lbs at 17% could very well look fat, because they have no muscle to give their body any shape at all.
[/quote]

From my experience it’s the opposite. Yes, a guy at 280lb. and 17% will look way more impressive but most people don’t think like us. The majority of people would even call http://images.tmuscle.com/forum_images/5/1/519926.1099838080999.coleman_offseason.jpg fat (I know we wouldn’t…you don’t need to tell me that you don’t think it’s fat). The majority of people I’ve shown pictures of off season bodybuilders immediately call them fat.

I on the other hand at one point was 15% body at at 5’11 and 130lb…no one in their right mind would have thought I was fat or even close.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:

This is retarded. I made great progress while I was in the military. I just got out a little over two years ago. I am talking about TRAINING AS IN COT which is like bootcamp. Good luck making gains while having every move dictated by someone else. You need more life experience before you call anyone else out.

Actually, it was sarcarsm

[quote]Professor X wrote:

It would be like studying several weeks for exams only to still flunk. Does your hard work mean as much if you fail?

[/quote]
But they still would have worked hard, no? My results are clear, but you’re questioning how hard I’ve worked and as I said, how many people do you know who blended up actual meals for a week just to get down the calories (as an example).

Why are you avoiding the question I’ve asked 2-3x. After roughly how many years do you think I should have been able to hit a lean 200lb?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

No, you called ME out. You started a thread about your progress and are now acting like every post questioning your intensity is calling you out. That makes no sense. Did you not want someone to examine what you’re doing?
[/quote]

I didn’t start a thread about my progress specifically.

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[quote]pumped340 wrote:

Why are you avoiding the question I’ve asked 2-3x. After roughly how many years do you think I should have been able to hit a lean 200lb?

[/quote]

No one is avoiding anything. I told you to follow Kingbeef’s progress. You are asking specific weight ranges when biology doesn’t exactly work like that. Your genetic muscle shape has much to do with this as well which is WHY your pic is so important to even be able to give any specific advice…but you won’t post your progress so what the hell do you expect?

I was over 200lbs in about 2 years even though I wasn’t lean when I first did it (because my diet was crap and I was eating too much…on purpose at the time to bulk up…which did help in the long run even though I would probably cut back more if I was to do it again. I started at about 150lbs with the goal of simply hitting 180 so I could look like my cousin.

Those mistakes, however, let me know exactly where my limits were so now I know for sure how much food I can get away as well as how many double cheeseburgers it takes before I start seeing them on my waist.

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[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

This is retarded. I made great progress while I was in the military. I just got out a little over two years ago. I am talking about TRAINING AS IN COT which is like bootcamp. Good luck making gains while having every move dictated by someone else. You need more life experience before you call anyone else out.

Actually, it was sarcarsm

[quote]Professor X wrote:

It would be like studying several weeks for exams only to still flunk. Does your hard work mean as much if you fail?

[/quote]
But they still would have worked hard, no? My results are clear, but you’re questioning how hard I’ve worked and as I said, how many people do you know who blended up actual meals for a week just to get down the calories (as an example).

Why are you avoiding the question I’ve asked 2-3x. After roughly how many years do you think I should have been able to hit a lean 200lb?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

No, you called ME out. You started a thread about your progress and are now acting like every post questioning your intensity is calling you out. That makes no sense. Did you not want someone to examine what you’re doing?
[/quote]

I didn’t start a thread about my progress specifically.

[/quote]

I’ve been training seriously for about 2 years and I’m about 200 pounds right now. Not terribly lean, but not fat either.

279

“I’m not crazy strong compared to many here but I’ve benched over 315, deadlifted 450, rowed 275 and military pressed 240lb.”

Pumped340, By looking at the poundages you are using suggests that you have built a good physique. I would not judge yourself by body weight alone , use the mirror and check the scales infrequently. Good job on that military press!

280

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

Why are you avoiding the question I’ve asked 2-3x. After roughly how many years do you think I should have been able to hit a lean 200lb?

[/quote]

No one is avoiding anything. I told you to follow Kingbeef’s progress. You are asking specific weight ranges when biology doesn’t exactly work like that. Your genetic muscle shape has much to do with this as well which is WHY your pic is so important to even be able to give any specific advice…but you won’t post your progress so what the hell do you expect?

I was over 200lbs in about 2 years even though I wasn’t lean when I first did it (because my diet was crap and I was eating too much…on purpose at the time to bulk up…which did help in the long run even though I would probably cut back more if I was to do it again. I started at about 150lbs with the goal of simply hitting 180 so I could look like my cousin.

Those mistakes, however, let me know exactly where my limits were so now I know for sure how much food I can get away as well as how many double cheeseburgers it takes before I start seeing them on my waist.[/quote]

OK just wanted to see what you thought. The reason why is because, as mentioned earlier, I started this at 15 years old. Maybe I should have hit 200lb. lean already by 19-20 (although I’ve never had someone say I look fat at all except my super lean brother who recently said I’m looking “buff but a little soft”) but that’s what, 1 year off from what I am now? Who the hell gets to be a lean 200lb at 17 years old? Not only would that require well above average genetics but also I would have had to gain 70lb of lean body mass in 2 years with little body fat. That’s ridiculous and I think even you would agree with the above.

Just checked out kingbeef’s thread, he started when he was 19. Impressive build. I’d say as far as upper body goes (all that I saw he posted) we’re pretty close as far as the amount of muscle we’re carrying…he’s obviously a lot leaner though

[quote]bwhitwell wrote:
“I’m not crazy strong compared to many here but I’ve benched over 315, deadlifted 450, rowed 275 and military pressed 240lb.”

Pumped340, By looking at the poundages you are using suggests that you have built a good physique. I would not judge yourself by body weight alone , use the mirror and check the scales infrequently. Good job on that military press![/quote]

Thanks man, honestly compared to many around my gym I’m not doing too badly lol. I guess a lot depends on how your body holds the weight (and as mentioned I have skinny legs so my upper body is probably bigger than most people at the same weight and body fat)