If You're Not Lean Under 200 Lbs....

Training Bodybuilding
181

[quote]dragunbayne wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]dragunbayne wrote:

Not to put words in the OP’s mouth, but I believe this has been his point. He hasn’t really been bitching about his progress, but more about those who sh*t on him (or others like him) because “they’re doing it wrong because they can’t make a given weight (I believe 200 lbs. is just an arbitrary number he chose) while being lean the entire time.”[/quote]

You also seem to be missing the point. The issue is NOT whether you gain some fat while gaining muscle. It is that at 6 feet tall and after 5 whole years of training “hard”, the op is still under 200lbs and still not lean.

If he were 5’4" that would be a completely different issue.[/quote]

Professor X, I have not missed the point of your opinion on this. Don’t get me wrong I respect what you have to say and I agree that under 200 for that height is on the small side. But all this aside I was just commenting as to what I thought the point of the OP was.
[\quote]

I don’t think the OP has a point which is why I asked him several times what he’s trying to say. I think he just day and was ranting or something. Everything he said even bodyfat numbers is pretty generic without pictures.

You can look at fighters 10% bodyfat at the same weight doesn’t look anything like bodybuilders at 10%bodyfat, and they both train. Unless he was more specific, as to training style picture of what he thinks these authors are trying to say he was just ranting about generic shit.

182

I see OP bouncing around forum to forum (on IM to). Has probably gotten gold nuggets of info from here and there!! He knows exactly what he needs to do, yet he’s making it more complicated then it should be. I don’t understand it at all…

(Dante always recommends fasted morning cardio 30-45 mins or something after taking in some bcaa’s/green tea/(1/2 scoop whey protein or something)

Do it everyday+your training and see if your bf doesn’t drop after a few months. I know a guy who was in your exact shoes and that was what helped him. He’s leaning up greatly coming down from 230+lbs.

183

about half way through reading some of this stuff…

how about ketosis/V diet for a month and report back…

184

Well just read through a good portion of this tread but might as well throw in my .02 because I definitely started with the body type that the OP has and will continue to have.

I am a person that gains fat very easily and started lifting at 6ft 230lbs with a god awful bf%. At this point I have been lifting for 1.5 years seriously. I have never done any of these cutting diets on here and I try to eat enough that I still am gaining strength. Shoot I rarely cut back on food, I just make good choices and plan out my carbs.

That being said I am now 198lbs and have visible abs(upper and lower), haven’t checked bf% because honestly don’t care. The only things I have done is trained with serious intensity and learned to eat right. I don’t do any cardio because just lifting with the correct amount of intensity burns enough calories. I lift 6 days a week and have tried including complexes but I saw my gains decrease and no much difference in definition.

I see these people on here cutting weight when there is no need. They should be focused on GAINING mass not losing fat. The fat will go down as you workout, its not going to happen over night. After a year or so of eating right and training right you should be in decent shape. If you haven’t made any progess its not because of genetics or whatever else you feel like you need to blame, ITS BECAUSE OF YOU.

185

[quote]Carlitosway wrote:
I see OP bouncing around forum to forum (on IM to). Has probably gotten gold nuggets of info from here and there!! He knows exactly what he needs to do, yet he’s making it more complicated then it should be. I don’t understand it at all…

(Dante always recommends fasted morning cardio 30-45 mins or something after taking in some bcaa’s/green tea/(1/2 scoop whey protein or something)

Do it everyday+your training and see if your bf doesn’t drop after a few months. I know a guy who was in your exact shoes and that was what helped him. He’s leaning up greatly coming down from 230+lbs. [/quote]

I agree with Charly, you should start from the assumption that you’re doing something wrong. It doesn’t help at all to say “I have bad genetics”, just do what you gotta do, you can’t change genetics, but you can change diet, resting patterns and MINDSET above of all, that goes with intensity, discipline, and all you need to be mentally to transform your body. And also at 6 feet and 198 you may need to gain more to look good when you cut. Don’t plan on going on another phase right now IMO, I can tell from experience that if you wanna be an average guy with a body that females like (average females 'cause many in here like thick guys), go with it, but if you wanna be really big and lean long term, you shouldn’t think about abs and pec striations, 'cause with you current level of muscle you’re not gonna get them right now.

186

“The harder I train, and the better I eat, the better my genetics keep getting”

Not verbatim, but that’s the gyst of it.

187

[quote]MEYMZ wrote:

[quote]Carlitosway wrote:
I see OP bouncing around forum to forum (on IM to). Has probably gotten gold nuggets of info from here and there!! He knows exactly what he needs to do, yet he’s making it more complicated then it should be. I don’t understand it at all…

(Dante always recommends fasted morning cardio 30-45 mins or something after taking in some bcaa’s/green tea/(1/2 scoop whey protein or something)

Do it everyday+your training and see if your bf doesn’t drop after a few months. I know a guy who was in your exact shoes and that was what helped him. He’s leaning up greatly coming down from 230+lbs. [/quote]

I agree with Charly, you should start from the assumption that you’re doing something wrong. It doesn’t help at all to say “I have bad genetics”, just do what you gotta do, you can’t change genetics, but you can change diet, resting patterns and MINDSET above of all, that goes with intensity, discipline, and all you need to be mentally to transform your body. And also at 6 feet and 198 you may need to gain more to look good when you cut. Don’t plan on going on another phase right now IMO, I can tell from experience that if you wanna be an average guy with a body that females like (average females 'cause many in here like thick guys), go with it, but if you wanna be really big and lean long term, you shouldn’t think about abs and pec striations, 'cause with you current level of muscle you’re not gonna get them right now.[/quote]

Not sure if this is pointed toward, but if it is I am not going to be cutting anytime soon. I want size not just being thin. I am already thinner and have more definition than most guys without cutting so no need to cut unless I wanted to get really low bf%.

It took me doing it to be a believer but just eating right will get you down to a good bf%. No need to do these insane cutting diets.

188

[quote]its_just_me wrote:

This is where people get confused with cardio, you don’t do cardio (like HIIT) just to burn fat - it alters your hormone balance and can even improve recovery.

It’s not just a case of calories in vs. calories out…you alter the partitioning when doing intense cardio. You increase fat burning hormones without severely limiting anabolism (as long as you eat/rest enough and don’t over-do the cardio). So, yes, you do increase the muscle to fat ratio, and no, you don’t just increase weight slower with the same ratio.
[/quote]

I’m well aware of what it’s supposed to do, just never noticed a very significant affect.

As for your comments about HIIT, it seems like nearly every big lifter is against it, with a few notable exceptions, for the reason that it is intense and can therefore hinder recovery. I think now CT even doesn’t recommend cardio when trying to gain.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

Dude I’m not talking about lipo here. But I am leaner at the same body weight, and eating a shitty diet because I’m working 80 hours a week. It works.

How long did you do it for?

I can’t imagine that cardio did absolutely zero for your composition. That is just crazy talk.[/quote]

Like I said I did cardio for my entire lifting career except for the last few months. It’s not like I have a twin where I could have us both eat the exact same thing and lift the same weight but only one of do cardio, but I’ve always just seemed to gain about the same proportion of muscle:fat whether I did cardio or not.

Actually that’s exactly what I was saying. If it came across as I was saying they’re not doing it wrong if they never get there, that wasn’t my intention. It’s when people say that they should always be relatively lean while getting above 200. I’m sure someone will comment that no one ever said this, but many have.

[quote]
As far as cardio, I haven’t been able to do any since I tore my ACL in September and it’s made a noticeable difference in fat gain. Nevertheless, I’d rather gain fat and muscle, then stay stagnant. But them again, is just a personal choice. I just had my surgery and I know adding it back in is going to make a huge difference. I really think you should consider adding it back in some form or another.[/quote]

I’ll keep that in mind. Couldn’t hurt to try again, maybe adding in some more after a workout or something (couldn’t afford more trips to the gym, but if I’m already there I could probably tag on another 20 min). Just out of curiosity what kind of cardio did you do? One benefit I do see to not doing it is that when you add it back in for when it’s time to cut down you won’t need as much and it should potentially have more of an effect. I believe this is what MightyStu has recently said he does, and I know Chris Aceto is also against cardio when gaining.

[quote]Loudog75 wrote:
I struggle to appreciate (maybe I’m in a vacuum) the difficulty of gaining 20-50lbs in a 5 year period. If you are training to grow, I fail to understand why you can’t put on 5lbs per year and not be obese.

Over the past year, I put on 20lbs. My goal was to get bigger, stronger and stay lean. My definition of lean may be different from others as I’m at 18% BF approx. And that’s not eating healthy as I have the desire but not the will to do it correctly (that’s my choice).

Prof X - We’re typing in a forum in which the OP has already stated they don’t train hard enough and make excuses for failure. I doubt there is anything else that will help here.[/quote]

LOL holy shit…honestly, where the hell did I say I don’t train hard enough.

And doing what you did isn’t hard. I don’t have any trouble gaining weight or eating a lot of food. And I gained 30lb. in my first year.

189

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

This thread is a waste of life, OP has been training for FIVE FUCKING YEARS and hasn’t broken 200lbs @ 6ft. I don’t care what his story is that’s pathetic. Quite making excuses, and quite back talking all the experienced guys that are trying to fucking help you, you worthless piece of shit.[/quote]

Then you just wasted your life posting to someone who doesn’t give 2 shits about your opinion.

[quote]Carlitosway wrote:
I see OP bouncing around forum to forum (on IM to). Has probably gotten gold nuggets of info from here and there!! He knows exactly what he needs to do, yet he’s making it more complicated then it should be. I don’t understand it at all…

(Dante always recommends fasted morning cardio 30-45 mins or something after taking in some bcaa’s/green tea/(1/2 scoop whey protein or something)

Do it everyday+your training and see if your bf doesn’t drop after a few months. I know a guy who was in your exact shoes and that was what helped him. He’s leaning up greatly coming down from 230+lbs. [/quote]

Well yea of course if I’m dropping weight I can lose body fat. As you said, he’s coming down from 230lb. I’m talking about minimizing fat gains while gaining.

[quote]MEYMZ wrote:

I agree with Charly, you should start from the assumption that you’re doing something wrong. It doesn’t help at all to say “I have bad genetics”, just do what you gotta do, you can’t change genetics, but you can change diet, resting patterns and MINDSET above of all, that goes with intensity, discipline, and all you need to be mentally to transform your body. And also at 6 feet and 198 you may need to gain more to look good when you cut. Don’t plan on going on another phase right now IMO, I can tell from experience that if you wanna be an average guy with a body that females like (average females 'cause many in here like thick guys), go with it, but if you wanna be really big and lean long term, you shouldn’t think about abs and pec striations, 'cause with you current level of muscle you’re not gonna get them right now.[/quote]

I don’t blame my genetics and I don’t worry about them because I know I can’t change them.

I think my point finally got understood a few posts ago, as some apparently thought that I mean reaching 200lb. lean EVER. I was saying that many will not be able to get to that point while remaining lean throughout the whole point to 200, which, regardless of what some may say, has definitely been said. I even quoted someone saying it.

Also in general for this thread, I was 15 when I started, I don’t think too many 15-18 year olds hit 200lb. without either being fat or having great genetics. In fact I don’t think I’ve ever met one. Even the “monster” of my high school was only a very lean 190lb. in his senior year and he clearly had amazing genetics for this. Professor X I don’t really have a problem with you but don’t act like I should have been a lean 200lb. in 2-3 years when i only would have been about 17 years old.

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Well you seem to have all the answers so if you are training hard enough, training frequently enough, eating correctly, getting enough sleep and doing adequate cardio and still are fat at under 200 lbs and 6’ then
you should give up because your genetics are crap…is that what you wanted to hear?

191

[quote]pja wrote:
Well you seem to have all the answers so if you are training hard enough, training frequently enough, eating correctly, getting enough sleep and doing adequate cardio and still are fat at under 200 lbs and 6’ then
you should give up because your genetics are crap…is that what you wanted to hear?

[/quote]

I never said I was fat. Unless you call 17-18% bf fat. I mean, no one from a non bodybuilding standpoint would look at me and think “Fat” or even overweight honestly.

By the way, I don’t do any cardio sessions, but I do walk around campus throughout the day and always take the stairs up and down 9 flights (~18 steps per flight) to get to my dorm room.

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[quote]pumped340 wrote:

I’ll keep that in mind. Couldn’t hurt to try again, maybe adding in some more after a workout or something (couldn’t afford more trips to the gym, but if I’m already there I could probably tag on another 20 min). Just out of curiosity what kind of cardio did you do? One benefit I do see to not doing it is that when you add it back in for when it’s time to cut down you won’t need as much and it should potentially have more of an effect. I believe this is what MightyStu has recently said he does, and I know Chris Aceto is also against cardio when gaining.
[/quote]

I really can’t stand being on the treadmill or any type of “gym cardio” so mine came from playing b-ball once or twice a week, hiking, or bike riding. So I’d say 3 45 minute sessions of cardio each week. I needed about 4000-4500 cals to gain on this. I’ve found just keeping my metabolism up by doing these activities kept my gains leaner. There’s alot of big guys on Dante’s site that do fasted cardio to keep fat at a minimum so I’d probably look into that as well.

193

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]pja wrote:
Well you seem to have all the answers so if you are training hard enough, training frequently enough, eating correctly, getting enough sleep and doing adequate cardio and still are fat at under 200 lbs and 6’ then
you should give up because your genetics are crap…is that what you wanted to hear?

[/quote]

I never said I was fat. Unless you call 17-18% bf fat. I mean, no one from a non bodybuilding standpoint would look at me and think “Fat” or even overweight honestly.

By the way, I don’t do any cardio sessions, but I do walk around campus throughout the day and always take the stairs up and down 9 flights (~18 steps per flight) to get to my dorm room. [/quote]

those stats sound like skinny fat :shrug:

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[quote]sam_sneed wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

I’ll keep that in mind. Couldn’t hurt to try again, maybe adding in some more after a workout or something (couldn’t afford more trips to the gym, but if I’m already there I could probably tag on another 20 min). Just out of curiosity what kind of cardio did you do? One benefit I do see to not doing it is that when you add it back in for when it’s time to cut down you won’t need as much and it should potentially have more of an effect. I believe this is what MightyStu has recently said he does, and I know Chris Aceto is also against cardio when gaining.
[/quote]

I really can’t stand being on the treadmill or any type of “gym cardio” so mine came from playing b-ball once or twice a week, hiking, or bike riding. So I’d say 3 45 minute sessions of cardio each week. I needed about 4000-4500 cals to gain on this. I’ve found just keeping my metabolism up by doing these activities kept my gains leaner. There’s alot of big guys on Dante’s site that do fasted cardio to keep fat at a minimum so I’d probably look into that as well.[/quote]

I did that for awhile as well (the fasted cardio). Maybe I’ll talk to some of the big guys over at IM about the cardio post workout and see what they’ve experienced as well. It doesn’t seem like many here do that though honestly.

As an aside, last time I hit this weight was about a year ago. I WAS doing cardio AND my carbs were lower…my arms were also about 3/4in. smaller. More muscle and way more strength now at the same weight…I can only assume that means less fat :\

195

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]pumped340 wrote:

I never said I was fat. Unless you call 17-18% bf fat. I mean, no one from a non bodybuilding standpoint would look at me and think “Fat” or even overweight honestly.

By the way, I don’t do any cardio sessions, but I do walk around campus throughout the day and always take the stairs up and down 9 flights (~18 steps per flight) to get to my dorm room. [/quote]

those stats sound like skinny fat :shrug:

[/quote]

I don’t know, I mean I’m not lean obviously but I look fairly muscular. I think part of it is that I have skinny legs. So my upper body looks like a typical person who’s maybe 210 or so at the same body fat (just an estimate, but my upper body has always looked significantly bigger than my friends who are at the same weight)

I also know that a little less than a year ago I was doing sled dragging for 20 minutes 3x per week, kept a clean lower carb diet, and was gaining strength…basically no increase in size somehow though and very noticeable gains in fat. The “no significant muscular gains” part always confused me, but the “still gained a lot of fat with sled dragging 3x/week” is why I’m bringing it up in this thread

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[quote]pumped340 wrote:

[quote]PAINTRAINDave wrote:

This thread is a waste of life, OP has been training for FIVE FUCKING YEARS and hasn’t broken 200lbs @ 6ft. I don’t care what his story is that’s pathetic. Quite making excuses, and quite back talking all the experienced guys that are trying to fucking help you, you worthless piece of shit.[/quote]

Then you just wasted your life posting to someone who doesn’t give 2 shits about your opinion.

[quote]Carlitosway wrote:
I see OP bouncing around forum to forum (on IM to). Has probably gotten gold nuggets of info from here and there!! He knows exactly what he needs to do, yet he’s making it more complicated then it should be. I don’t understand it at all…

(Dante always recommends fasted morning cardio 30-45 mins or something after taking in some bcaa’s/green tea/(1/2 scoop whey protein or something)

Do it everyday+your training and see if your bf doesn’t drop after a few months. I know a guy who was in your exact shoes and that was what helped him. He’s leaning up greatly coming down from 230+lbs. [/quote]

Well yea of course if I’m dropping weight I can lose body fat. As you said, he’s coming down from 230lb. I’m talking about minimizing fat gains while gaining.

[quote]MEYMZ wrote:

I agree with Charly, you should start from the assumption that you’re doing something wrong. It doesn’t help at all to say “I have bad genetics”, just do what you gotta do, you can’t change genetics, but you can change diet, resting patterns and MINDSET above of all, that goes with intensity, discipline, and all you need to be mentally to transform your body. And also at 6 feet and 198 you may need to gain more to look good when you cut. Don’t plan on going on another phase right now IMO, I can tell from experience that if you wanna be an average guy with a body that females like (average females 'cause many in here like thick guys), go with it, but if you wanna be really big and lean long term, you shouldn’t think about abs and pec striations, 'cause with you current level of muscle you’re not gonna get them right now.[/quote]

I don’t blame my genetics and I don’t worry about them because I know I can’t change them.

I think my point finally got understood a few posts ago, as some apparently thought that I mean reaching 200lb. lean EVER. I was saying that many will not be able to get to that point while remaining lean throughout the whole point to 200, which, regardless of what some may say, has definitely been said. I even quoted someone saying it.

Also in general for this thread, I was 15 when I started, I don’t think too many 15-18 year olds hit 200lb. without either being fat or having great genetics. In fact I don’t think I’ve ever met one. Even the “monster” of my high school was only a very lean 190lb. in his senior year and he clearly had amazing genetics for this. Professor X I don’t really have a problem with you but don’t act like I should have been a lean 200lb. in 2-3 years when i only would have been about 17 years old. [/quote]

Ummm I know you have read this shit, here read it again. You got Dante here explaining exactly what you need and he has helped people in your situation countless times I’m sure.

[quote]Dante wrote: One last thing–I believe anyone in this forum can turn their bodies into high protein-food processing machines. In fact I donÃ??Ã?¢Ã?¢?Ã?¬Ã?¢?Ã?¢t know of a better legal anabolic than hitting twice your bodyweight with protein grams over a definite amount of time. The difference is I have always had a very tough time gaining weight and I have to keep cardio episodes to 2 or less times a week to gain weight. Someone else in this forum who wants to build muscle on “the fast track” can get their 500 grams of protein in (along with moderate carbs and good fats) but might have to do a slight moderate cardio 2-6 times a week to keep lean. Again like recovery ability, I donÃ??Ã?¢Ã?¢?Ã?¬Ã?¢?Ã?¢t generalize and put people all in one boat. An endomorph and ectomorph who have the exact same muscle building genetic potential will not have the exact same bodyfat genetics…while each might have to take in 450grams of protein to build muscle at an optimal rate, the endomorph is going to probably have to hit the treadmill- walking 4 times a week. I would much rather have people do things that way than curb back food (protein) intake to keep lean .

Think for a second–If you fill your hunger with protein first what are you most likely not going to eat a huge amount of? It takes roughly 24.6-26 calories burned to digest every 100 calories of protein yet it only takes roughly 3.8 to 4.2 calories burned to digest every 100 calories of fats/carbs so are you figuring out yet why my trainees are always hot like a furnace and stay reasonably lean eating gross amounts of food?

A high protein meal however will elevate your metabolism by up to 70 percent above normal and this effect can last as long as 10 to 12 hours."

Think about it for a second my freind–we are taking in alot of protein–and cutting off carbs at certain times and using thermogenisis to our advantage (green tea 4% rise) we are doing alot of cardio–cardio needs energy–it has to come from somewhere—During digestion it takes (depending on various factors, bodysize etc etc) about 3.7 to 4.5 calories burned to completely digest 100 calories of fats and carbs. To digest 100 calories of protein it takes about 22 to 27 calories burned. Thats 25%!!! Now you see why my trainees are always sweating and hot all the time. You take in 400 GRAMS of protein and your burning 400 calories thru digestion. (thats a freaking serious hardcore cardio session) —Ill take 2000 calories of protein a day with up to 500 of that burnt thru digestion so its truly 1500 (if you want to go roughly by numbers) than 2000 calories of carbs a day with a whopping 80 calories burnt during digestion so its a true 1920 (all rough figures but you get the idea)…this is about turning your body into a human blast furnace. If you want to eat maintenance go right ahead and stay with the same scheme that is causing you to stay the exact same in muscle size. In simple terms this is tricking the body into becoming a bigger muscle mass entity all the while staying lean while doing it. Ive done it for too many years[/quote]

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[quote] Dante wrote: THINK ABOUT IT!!! Your 200lbs, eat like a 250lb guy to get freakshow bigger, and train like a rhino with heavy weights to get larger but also do everything in your power (green tea, cardio, carb cuttoffs) to keep at a bodyfat percentage that your proud of or can live with. This is all about turning your body into a muscle building fat burning blast furnace!

If you do bulking and cutting for the next 2 years and with all those “cutting cycles” adding up to a years time, guess what you just gave up a year of lifting–one year of nonexistant muscle mass accumalation. Thats like lifting for the next 6 years and you only get 3 years of productivity out of it. See the problem is, alot of people try to stay lean year round while also tryng their hardest to put on muscle mass and they do it all wrong. They eat like a 190lber trying to get to 250lbs and think that–by some miracle that will get them there. This is all about becoming a food processing machine here. Take in a surplus (protein/food), create a demand to put on muscle (seriously heavy lifting/DC training) and then taking care of excesses and burning them off (carb cuttoffs/cardio/thermogenisis)----eating and training like a 300lbs offseason behemoth but doing everything else in your power to be that guy walking around at 7-14% bodyfat (whatever floats your boat)…See its not that hard, just think it out…but most of all don’t waste your freaking time taking 2 steps forward and 1.5 steps backward…this is about constant forward progress. If I hear anyone say “cutter” or “bulker” again on this board, you get the official title of “bodybuilding.com guy”, like a scarlet letter. This is constant bulking and cutting at the same time and you don’t forsake one for the other unless your competing for a show.

You turn yourself into a machine and you keep that machine evolving. Does anyone in this forum actually believe that if you are 200lbs and doing cardio 3-4x a week at 30-45 minutes a pop but eating 400-500 grams of protein and a ****load of food to get bigger that - YOUR ACTUALLY NOT GOING TO GET BIGGER BECAUSE OF THAT CARDIO? If your not getting bigger then your either not eating enough or your a young guy whose metabolism is so fast that your one of the lucky ones who doesn’t have to do cardio. That’s another story I have to write about one of these days–Cardio. Every time I hear a guy tell me…“I just cant eat enough”…I ask him “are you doing cardio?”, and he gives me that puzzled look and thinks “why should I do cardio? I have trouble gaining weight and eating enough”…BINGO!!! What do you think cardio does? You get up in the morning and start your day with some cardio I guarentee youll be starving the rest of the day and be eating like a damn horse. IT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE TIME. Cardio is a two way street–increases hunger and keeps you lean. You have trouble getting bigger? Add cardio first thing in the morning after 30 grams of protein in water and some bcaa’s and watch yourself eat the rest of the day! You wont be missing meals, you’ll be starving.

I hear this all the time with guys I personally train “dante im sweating my ass off after eating a meal”…just remember “one goes with the other” “higher protein=more water intake”–no exceptions [/quote]

What are your excuses now?

oops forgot some more…

[quote] Dante wrote:
" Nothing is sadder to me then some guy 205lbs who lifts for 5-6 years and is weighing 208lbs now. You just did all those workouts and all that time for 3 measly lbs? If anyone I personally train is gaining bodyfat 90% of the time they are skipping the 20-30 min cardio sessions i have them do 2-3 times a week or cheating after carb cuttoffs more than they are telling me. "

If you are an endo - take in bcaa’s in crystal light if bodyfat gain is a problem.
If you are an ecto or someone who doesn’t have a problem with bodyfat gain while bulking, Id have take in a no carb protein drink most likely previous to cardio—depends on the individual and his goals.

Get up out of bed–down 2 cups green tea down the hatch–take your choice of fat burner–take a heaping teaspoon (5 grams) of BCAA powder on your tongue and wash it down with crystal light and get on that treadmill at 3.2mph at 10 incline or 3.6mph no incline my friend.
Personally Iââ?¬â?¢m like Inhuman I do this 6 times a week for 25-30 mins a pop first thing out of bed–it sets up my day and keeps my appetite up and lets me eat pretty much what i want and stay at my preferred desired leanness that I like at this time. You of course are going to have to be much more meticulous with diet and will have to most likely bring it up to 45 mins (and maybe 60 mins even later on depending on how far you want to get down)
What is more important to you? Keeping your leg mass or maybe having a 5% better fatburning ratio. Building extreme muscle mass takes 5 years to a decade…losing bodyfat takes 3-4 months.

For someone desperately trying to gain as much muscle as possible yet trying to keep bodyfat in check–twice a week on off days.
For someone dieting down for a show-----everyday except leg days (same goes if they have to do their cardio at nite)
I have been training a girl who seemed to be stuck at that last bit of bodyfat for awhile before coming to me…like the kind of girl who looks incredible at the beach but this girl wanted the fitness centerfold look with abs/leaness–the whole nine yards…45 minute walk in the morning followed by a protein drink and oatmeal followed by a short weight workout and then at nite 45 minutes on the stairmaster. A little usnic acid, and a generic thermogenic supplement and its been 3 weeks and I saw 3 rows of abs this morning on her. She will easily be able to maintain this and drop one of the daily cardio sessions.[/quote]

198

My excuse for what…?

And I’ve done everything you quoted from Dante, except the thermogenics. Nothing beyond pretty standard advice there.

199

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
My excuse for what…?

And I’ve done everything you quoted from Dante, except the thermogenics. Nothing beyond pretty standard advice there. [/quote]

What are you saying you haven’t followed his protein intake protocol?

Pictures speak volume. How about posting some buddy? I think you’re cutting yourself short not letting us see what’s going on exactly. I’ve seen your numbers and most of them looked pretty damn good. So maybe you’re being a bit to hard on yourself? and just “think” your fat gain is a bigger issue than it really is.

200

pumped340:

Have you considered what I said earlier about stress being a big limiting factor (i.e. causing lower T-levels and more fat gains etc)?

Most people on here have said that you aren’t pushing hard enough etc, but it could be the reverse. Many know how to push forward, but have no clue about when to “pull back”.

I know you say that you’re not talking just about yourself, but when you said that when you “gave up cardio”, and saw little difference, it could be that you were overly stressed (you were fighting a losing battle against your hormones). That of course doesn’t mean that one has to drastically decrease workload (as long as diet is ok); it just means that you need to know at what point to “take it easy” so that you’re body can catch up/overcompensate and hormones can get back into balance.