[quote]Professor X wrote:
Most people with big traps and big quads…are big everywhere else also.[/quote]
This is especially true with traps. I have never seen anyone small, or even average-sized, with big traps. Eat.
[quote]alocubano1110 wrote:
Roy wrote:
Isolation exercises BUILD MASS. What the fuck else did you think they did? Burn fat?
my point is that the compound movements build more mass overall and faster the isolation movements. Would you do bicep curls as a beginner or chins or rows to work the biceps and also the back. I’m just saying that I think that compound movements are better if you are a beginner and will get more mass on you quicker and all over. get my point?[/quote]
I did biceps curls as a beginner and am very glad I did. I would never recommend soemone avoid them unless they are well below average in strength and so weak that they simply need to get back to “average” before progressing further.
I am willing to bet you only think the way you do because of what an author has written. How many truly big guys would tell you to never do biceps curls as a beginner?
Neither compounds nor isolations will put mass on you. Food will.
4 of the 13 exercises in my current workout are isolations because the compounds just cannot hit my triceps, biceps and traps directly enough. If they could, I wouldn’t do the isos.
However, I do believe that the ‘majority’ (i.e. >50%) of one’s exercise selection probably should consist of compounds as they tend to simulate real life movements better than isos and are just more time efficient. Besides, what’s a full body workout or a series of split workouts without some squats, dead, benches, dips, chin or pull ups and rows?
The compound/iso issue is much like the nutrition vs supplement issue in most trainees. A typical lifter needs a solid well rounded diet of compound exercises but if the want to maximize their potential they should supplement with isolation exercises. Just as with food, it would be foolish for most to spend all their money (or time and energy in this case) on supplements if they don’t have a solid diet of real food down already, but if their diet is solid, then supplementing judiciously with that extra protein powder or magic pill can help them reach the next level.
As for this guy’s question, deadlifts and olympic lifts have worked quite well for me over the years in developing my traps. I haven’t done a strict isolation shrug in years but my traps are proportionally one of my most developed groups in my upper body.
developing one group at the expense of other groups, especially opposing ones gets me nervous. I’m seeing a guy with overdeveloped traps with a future of potential neck and shoulder problems ahead of him.
[quote]etaco wrote:
The compound/iso issue is much like the nutrition vs supplement issue in most trainees. A typical lifter needs a solid well rounded diet of compound exercises but if the want to maximize their potential they should supplement with isolation exercises. Just as with food, it would be foolish for most to spend all their money (or time and energy in this case) on supplements if they don’t have a solid diet of real food down already, but if their diet is solid, then supplementing judiciously with that extra protein powder or magic pill can help them reach the next level.
[/quote]
Great analogy. One of the best ways to describe it I’ve seen.
[quote]alocubano1110 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
alocubano1110 wrote:
Just stick the compound movements such as bench,squat, and deadlift…
…and also isolation movements like biceps curls, side lateral raises, and bent over raises.
Avoid being a lift with blinders on who can’t see the big picture.
I’m just saying that he should first build mass before going ahead and doing iso movements, dont worry im not against isolation movements. I’m also giving him tips on the goals he wants to accomplish such as big traps. If he asked me how to build biceps or something i would have probably suggested a split routine.[/quote]
let’s evaluate this post carefully.
he should ‘build mass’ before using isolation movements. are you suggesting that compound movements build mass while isolation movements do something else?
because that’s what it sounds like when i read your post. if i’m wrong, please clarify. and if i am wrong, please explain why you gave the advice you did. why should the OP not use isolation movements towards his goal of emphasizing his quad and trap development?
let me ask you this: are there different ways/styles/types of mass? is there a difference between building mass and building muscle? what about building size? this reminds me of the whole, ‘i don’t wanna get to big, i just wanna be nice and toned/lean’.
IOSLATION MOVEMENTS BUILD MASS/MUSCLE/CUTS/WHATEVER YOU WANNA CALL IT. MUSCLE IS MUSCLE. YOU DO NOT NEED TO GRADUATE TO ISOLATION MOVEMENTS FROM COMPOUND MOVEMENTS.
isolation movements can and should be learned early on in one’s training career. you do not need to hit some body-weight-to-height ratio or some body-weight-to-squat ratio before evolving into isolation movements. there is almost always a way to incorporate some balance of isolation movements into any routine to increase the rate at which one reaches his/her goals.
[quote]alocubano1110 wrote:
Roy wrote:
Isolation exercises BUILD MASS. What the fuck else did you think they did? Burn fat?
my point is that the compound movements build more mass overall and faster the isolation movements. Would you do bicep curls as a beginner or chins or rows to work the biceps and also the back. I’m just saying that I think that compound movements are better if you are a beginner and will get more mass on you quicker and all over. get my point?[/quote]
of course compound movements build mass. so do isolation movements. but why are you turning this into an ‘either/or’ debate?
since when did a trainee have to select EITHER compound movements OR isolation movements? it is not difficult to effectively incorporate both.
isolation movements have their place in a smart strength-training/hypertrophy program as much as the compound movements. isolation movements allow you to add extra volume to less muscles than compounds do. it is not unlikely that someone can tolerate more volume for their biceps in a given routine than is being provided from all of their back/upper-body pull work. so instead of adding another compound exercise which would burn them out head-to-toe, they simply add a less CNS-draining exercise to the mix: some type of bicep curl. this allows for extra volume to the biceps to strengthen them and get them to grow without fatiguing other muscles that would be drained from movements such as varying rows or chin ups.
why is this so difficult for you to understand? i know why. it is because you are inexperienced. you are also ideological and anti-isolation movement, despite what you have said earlier.
i will also repeat that you do NOT need to GRADUATE to ‘earn’ the privelege of performing isolation exercises. they can be done from day one until the day you die .
to summarize all i’ve just said:
Isolation exercises BUILD MASS. What the fuck else did you think they did? Burn fat?
to finally address the OP:
you will get trap development from performing various types of shoulder presses <miltary press to the front and behind the neck, standing/seated dumbell presses or arnold presses, push presses>.
various deadlifts will also build your traps <conventional/sumo, rack pulls> as will olympic pulls and their variations <snatch, clean and jerk, inverted rows, hanging cleans, etc>.
more easily, though, you can simply do barbell/dumbell shrugs. get stronger at shrugs over time and your traps will grow.
as far as quads go, variations of squats <various stances, box squats, front squats, etc>, LUNGES, and one-legged leg presses .
sprinting will also build your quads, as will all types of running and sports that rely heeavily on running. perform some drills that you can get from any friend who is competitive in any running sport, such as soccer, track and field, football, etc.
hope that helps and makes sense.
good luck.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
developing one group at the expense of other groups, especially opposing ones gets me nervous. I’m seeing a guy with overdeveloped traps with a future of potential neck and shoulder problems ahead of him.[/quote]
I don’t understand. Neck problems? The neck is almost all traps.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
developing one group at the expense of other groups, especially opposing ones gets me nervous. I’m seeing a guy with overdeveloped traps with a future of potential neck and shoulder problems ahead of him.
I don’t understand. Neck problems? The neck is almost all traps.[/quote]
Perhaps he is recommending working the sternocleidomastoid as well to avoid muscular imbalance.
[quote]AdamC wrote:
Ok,
So i’ve been working out since september 19th after a 16 month fitness lay off due to a round the world backpacking trip.
I am a skinny bastard and when i got back i was a cringe worthy 136lbs and have got up to 155lbs.
I’ve been following westside for skinny bastards, 3 days per week. I hit 275lbs (cringe) on the deadlift this week and 155lbs on the bench (cringe)
One thing i’ve always envyed are people with big quads and traps…and i’ve never been able to get any size or definiton in these areas. I know at this stage of my body development i should probably just concentrate on everything but i really want to bring my quads and traps along in particular.
So given my current state, can anyone give me some advice on how to improve these areas quick smart.
Cheers
[/quote]
While I’ll never criticize squats and deadlifts are essential exercises. For pure trap nothing is better than getting on your standing calf raise machine and shruging that way. Believe you me if shrugging 500, 600, 800 or more pounds does not get those things growing nothing will.
Also like calves traps I’ve found can take frequent training 4-5x a week if needed. Personally I always do traps and calves together since I do them on the same machine.
Face pulls are good for thickness but how much can anyone face pull.
Move big weight to get big parts.
As mentioned, a general compound movements workout, avoid isolation unless its to target muscles which assist bigger lifts and may get injured otherwise like rotator cuff work and maybe some forearm work.
When you have some overall mass, then a dedicated overhead squat programme and deadlift prog are very good ideas.
[quote]Doug Adams wrote:
Since isolation movements came up, I figured another article from elitefts.com is in order.
The “I” Word:
http://www.elitefts.com/documents/i_word.htm[/quote]
Thanks for sharing this article. This is something people in the gym may not think about. I know I haven’t and you can tell others in my gym don’t. I’m gonna work on keeping that tension in the body, not just in the muscle I’m working.
Thanks for that 
~Scotty
[quote]Dr Stig wrote:
As mentioned, a general compound movements workout, avoid isolation unless its to target muscles which assist bigger lifts and may get injured otherwise like rotator cuff work and maybe some forearm work.
When you have some overall mass, then a dedicated overhead squat programme and deadlift prog are very good ideas.[/quote]
why should he avoid isolation movements unless they target muscles which assist in bigger lifts? the only isolation work he should do is rotator cuff work and maybe forearm work?
did you even read what the OP asked? he was looking to emphasize his quads and his traps.
[quote]Dr Stig wrote:
As mentioned, a general compound movements workout, avoid isolation unless its to target muscles which assist bigger lifts and may get injured otherwise like rotator cuff work and maybe some forearm work.
When you have some overall mass, then a dedicated overhead squat programme and deadlift prog are very good ideas.[/quote]
why do i get the feeling to is your answer to every single question about training?
‘avoid isolation! only do compound!’
[quote]hueyOT wrote:
Dr Stig wrote:
As mentioned, a general compound movements workout, avoid isolation unless its to target muscles which assist bigger lifts and may get injured otherwise like rotator cuff work and maybe some forearm work.
When you have some overall mass, then a dedicated overhead squat programme and deadlift prog are very good ideas.
why should he avoid isolation movements unless they target muscles which assist in bigger lifts? the only isolation work he should do is rotator cuff work and maybe forearm work?
did you even read what the OP asked? he was looking to emphasize his quads and his traps.[/quote]
Sure I read it, and like everyone else I gave him advice not particular or pertaining to his exact question, which was in all aspects, correct.
[quote]hueyOT wrote:
Dr Stig wrote:
As mentioned, a general compound movements workout, avoid isolation unless its to target muscles which assist bigger lifts and may get injured otherwise like rotator cuff work and maybe some forearm work.
When you have some overall mass, then a dedicated overhead squat programme and deadlift prog are very good ideas.
why do i get the feeling to is your answer to every single question about training?
‘avoid isolation! only do compound!’
[/quote]
Well there is of course no true isolation and all exercises are compound, so I’m wrong there.
However you are taking my comments out of context, you should think more laterally. This chap needs to save his energy for compound movements which will also stress the muscles he might want to work in ‘isolation’. I don’t see which part of that is such a problem ?
If he was getting ready for a comp or had adequately developed his physique then doing direct work would be just fine and dandy.
Sorry, was I supposed to flame and insult you ?
[quote]hueyOT wrote:
alocubano1110 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
alocubano1110 wrote:
Just stick the compound movements such as bench,squat, and deadlift…
…and also isolation movements like biceps curls, side lateral raises, and bent over raises.
Avoid being a lift with blinders on who can’t see the big picture.
I’m just saying that he should first build mass before going ahead and doing iso movements, dont worry im not against isolation movements. I’m also giving him tips on the goals he wants to accomplish such as big traps. If he asked me how to build biceps or something i would have probably suggested a split routine.
let’s evaluate this post carefully.
he should ‘build mass’ before using isolation movements. are you suggesting that compound movements build mass while isolation movements do something else?
because that’s what it sounds like when i read your post. if i’m wrong, please clarify. and if i am wrong, please explain why you gave the advice you did. why should the OP not use isolation movements towards his goal of emphasizing his quad and trap development?
let me ask you this: are there different ways/styles/types of mass? is there a difference between building mass and building muscle? what about building size? this reminds me of the whole, ‘i don’t wanna get to big, i just wanna be nice and toned/lean’.
IOSLATION MOVEMENTS BUILD MASS/MUSCLE/CUTS/WHATEVER YOU WANNA CALL IT. MUSCLE IS MUSCLE. YOU DO NOT NEED TO GRADUATE TO ISOLATION MOVEMENTS FROM COMPOUND MOVEMENTS.
isolation movements can and should be learned early on in one’s training career. you do not need to hit some body-weight-to-height ratio or some body-weight-to-squat ratio before evolving into isolation movements. there is almost always a way to incorporate some balance of isolation movements into any routine to increase the rate at which one reaches his/her goals.
[/quote]
Isolation movements do build mass, if you are working a muscle enough you will cause hypertrophy through, myofibril thickening, cappilary growth and glycogen accomodation.
But, if you consider we only have certain resources to train from a time and recover / nutrition aspect, time spent FUCKING ABOUT with isolation movements could be used on compound movements which leads to greater CNS involvement, more muscle fibre activation and more adherance to the SAID principle and greater mass gains.
[quote]Dr Stig wrote:
hueyOT wrote:
alocubano1110 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
alocubano1110 wrote:
Just stick the compound movements such as bench,squat, and deadlift…
…and also isolation movements like biceps curls, side lateral raises, and bent over raises.
Avoid being a lift with blinders on who can’t see the big picture.
I’m just saying that he should first build mass before going ahead and doing iso movements, dont worry im not against isolation movements. I’m also giving him tips on the goals he wants to accomplish such as big traps. If he asked me how to build biceps or something i would have probably suggested a split routine.
let’s evaluate this post carefully.
he should ‘build mass’ before using isolation movements. are you suggesting that compound movements build mass while isolation movements do something else?
because that’s what it sounds like when i read your post. if i’m wrong, please clarify. and if i am wrong, please explain why you gave the advice you did. why should the OP not use isolation movements towards his goal of emphasizing his quad and trap development?
let me ask you this: are there different ways/styles/types of mass? is there a difference between building mass and building muscle? what about building size? this reminds me of the whole, ‘i don’t wanna get to big, i just wanna be nice and toned/lean’.
IOSLATION MOVEMENTS BUILD MASS/MUSCLE/CUTS/WHATEVER YOU WANNA CALL IT. MUSCLE IS MUSCLE. YOU DO NOT NEED TO GRADUATE TO ISOLATION MOVEMENTS FROM COMPOUND MOVEMENTS.
isolation movements can and should be learned early on in one’s training career. you do not need to hit some body-weight-to-height ratio or some body-weight-to-squat ratio before evolving into isolation movements. there is almost always a way to incorporate some balance of isolation movements into any routine to increase the rate at which one reaches his/her goals.
Isolation movements do build mass, if you are working a muscle enough you will cause hypertrophy through, myofibril thickening, cappilary growth and glycogen accomodation.
But, if you consider we only have certain resources to train from a time and recover / nutrition aspect, time spent FUCKING ABOUT with isolation movements could be used on compound movements which leads to greater CNS involvement, more muscle fibre activation and more adherance to the SAID principle and greater mass gains.
[/quote]
no.
you’re seeing this incorrectly. it’s not as if every minute that is spent on isolation exercises could be used on compound movements.
isolation movements can be applied appropriately to many programs which are based on performance in basic compound lifts.
a trainee might be trying to add extra volume to a given muscle or two WITHOUT the CNS-draining effects of particular compound movements.
for example, if a trainee has very well conditioned triceps, he/she might benefit from some extra work given to the triceps via tricep extension exercises. however, he/she has already done enough work for his/her delts/pecs/etc, and does NOT want to perform another compound lift such as dips/bench/board presses, etc.
under these circumstances, the trainee will benefit from adding extra tricep work via isolation exercises.
and don’t argue semantics, we all know what isolation exercises are. of course the forearm flexors and extensors are activated during a tricep extension movements, but it’s still an isolation exercise. don’t overcomplicate this.
lastly, i can think of a million and one circumstances where isolation exercises, used appropriately, are much better than compound exercises alone. isolation exercises are an indispensable tool for adding volume to a smaller group of muscles without exhausting other muscles that you might not be trying to exhaust and also to spare further CNS-drain.
so basically, everything you just said was incorrect. time spent on isolatione exercises CANNOT NECESSARILY be spent on compound movements.
maybe you’re confused… maybe you’re trying to use you incorrect statement as a front to a personal opinion you might have of newbies focussing too much on barbell curls and abdominal crunches, and not enough time on squats and bench presses. but if that’s what you’re trying to say, come out and say it. don’t mask it behind bullshit.