It always seemed to me that a big part of keeping your wind with anything that resembles fighting e.g. boxing, kickboxing, martial arts sparring with at least some contact, grappling, wrestling, what have you, is staying calm yet alert. You have to have the attribute, in this case endourance. You also have to be able to relax when you can and not when it costs you. I always think of boxing. Plenty of amateurs run multiple miles every day and spend a ton of time in the gym, but they can still gas out in 4 two minute rounds. On paper they are addressing all their energy systems work and are at an age when “cardio” almost comes natural. Then you have older pros going 10-12 3 minute rounds. They aren’t doing 4x the roadwork, usually. They are efficient and relaxed until they need to be tense and explosive. One of the most dishartening things about training is getting run around, ragdolled, and raped by someone whom you know you are stronger and in better shape than. I think this same effect happens when it seems that “nerves” cause your conditioning to go to hell, or why an actural fight, or even breaking up a fight, tends to leave you huffing and puffing worse than working a “slaughter line” drill in the gym/dojo.
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]goldengloves wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
ugh you all are so dumb[/quote]
Only about things we know nothing about. hint…hint[/quote]
No you’re wrong, but I’m done arguing science and facts are dumb, you are all right. Man to think all the countless thousands of fighters doing their morning roadwork had it all wrong. Someone should go to to Thailand and tell them they have it wrong too.[/quote]
I don’t know, does weight training and gaining muscle mass really just make you bulky and slow? That’s the sentiment in boxing not long ago, some fighters still feel that way.
[quote]Beast Status wrote:
Sprints have their place. We drill pad work for 1.5 hours straight, jog 3-5 miles and use sprints. More for the effect of getting the heart rate up and back down. To simulate rests between rounds. Sprints dont seem to keep the gas in the tank as long as extended periods with a high heart rate. It does however accustom your heart to go from an elevated rate and then while resting back down to a lower BPM much faster. Thus giving your body better recoop in between rounds.
Also…OP is asking about kickboxing, not boxing. Not a big deal, but I didnt know if you caught that.
Are you involved with the golden gloves program? We have a great program up here in my area of vermont.[/quote]
Boxing is just my background and what I’m involved with.
I’m not involved with the GG program in that sense, I don’t have the time for it now. Once I’m finished with grad school I’d like to get certified by USA boxing and become a trainer at a nonprofit gym, currently I work with nonprofit gyms to improve their S&C “programs”. I’d also like to get involved with the amateur programs by reffing or being a judge too.
[/quote]
No I would never say lifting is bad it depends on the boxer really. Does he need to get stronger? But there are some consequences of hypertrophy (the ratio of oxidative to glycolytic muscle tissue). I tell him to do aerobic work for endurance and that anerobic isn’t really what he needs right now and suddenly I’m a troll? Whatever[/quote]
Wow. To add to wHAT MUST already rock bottome self esteem for you to be acting like this on the web, put down the science book and go gain some real world experience, and secondly virtually all elite combat trainers have embraced strength training and ANAEROBIC traINING BECAUSE of what science has taught us about the demands of the sport.
Thirdly, if done in an intelligent manner, the improvements in your metabolic systems incurred from aerobic training will be seen with anerobic work and strength training.
And ea, years of fighters did have it wrong, for years virtually all athletes did “roadwork” regardless of the energy demands of the sport.
[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]goldengloves wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
ugh you all are so dumb[/quote]
Only about things we know nothing about. hint…hint[/quote]
No you’re wrong, but I’m done arguing science and facts are dumb, you are all right. Man to think all the countless thousands of fighters doing their morning roadwork had it all wrong. Someone should go to to Thailand and tell them they have it wrong too.[/quote]
I don’t know, does weight training and gaining muscle mass really just make you bulky and slow? That’s the sentiment in boxing not long ago, some fighters still feel that way.
[quote]Beast Status wrote:
Sprints have their place. We drill pad work for 1.5 hours straight, jog 3-5 miles and use sprints. More for the effect of getting the heart rate up and back down. To simulate rests between rounds. Sprints dont seem to keep the gas in the tank as long as extended periods with a high heart rate. It does however accustom your heart to go from an elevated rate and then while resting back down to a lower BPM much faster. Thus giving your body better recoop in between rounds.
Also…OP is asking about kickboxing, not boxing. Not a big deal, but I didnt know if you caught that.
Are you involved with the golden gloves program? We have a great program up here in my area of vermont.[/quote]
Boxing is just my background and what I’m involved with.
I’m not involved with the GG program in that sense, I don’t have the time for it now. Once I’m finished with grad school I’d like to get certified by USA boxing and become a trainer at a nonprofit gym, currently I work with nonprofit gyms to improve their S&C “programs”. I’d also like to get involved with the amateur programs by reffing or being a judge too.
[/quote]
No I would never say lifting is bad it depends on the boxer really. Does he need to get stronger? But there are some consequences of hypertrophy (the ratio of oxidative to glycolytic muscle tissue). I tell him to do aerobic work for endurance and that anerobic isn’t really what he needs right now and suddenly I’m a troll? Whatever[/quote]
Wow. To add to wHAT MUST already rock bottome self esteem for you to be acting like this on the web, put down the science book and go gain some real world experience, and secondly virtually all elite combat trainers have embraced strength training and ANAEROBIC traINING BECAUSE of what science has taught us about the demands of the sport.
Thirdly, if done in an intelligent manner, the improvements in your metabolic systems incurred from aerobic training will be seen with anerobic work and strength training.
And ea, years of fighters did have it wrong, for years virtually all athletes did “roadwork” regardless of the energy demands of the sport.
[/quote]
Uh no bring me some legit literature explaining how the bodies energy systems work. Now go a long idiot.
I think that Sardines 12 position has been entirely misunderstood.
I do not know if he has developed his views about training independently which would be interesting but what he says is in line with a body of opinion lead in MMA by pro UFC trainer Joel Jamieson (check out www.8weeksout.com) which has resulted in a reemphasis on the primacy of aerobic training on the basis that MMA is an aerobic/ alactic sport.
There is also newer work on energy contribution in athletics showing for example that the 400m has a 40/60 aerobic /anaerobic contribution with equality in the systems coming around 75 seconds.
Whether you agree with him or not Jamieson is extremely well versed in exercise physiology and has great experience of training and testing top level pro fighters and his studies have lead to a sea change in how some fighters are prepared.
Of course he is mainly talking about 3-5 x 5 minute rounds and I think that he does concede that shorter duration bouts will require more lactic work but of course the trick is knowing how much time to devote to each.
I think that there are good points made about specific problems of gassing in fighting sports. Most people need exposure to deal with the adrenaline fuelled fatigue. Some seem relatively immune.
I also think that there is lot to be said for specificity so I would agree with those who have stressed the need to do a lot of specific work boxing and boxing related work. May be this is the most important thing to do.
However just to throw out something specific to consider (or discard) why not try developing your aerobic system by running for extended periods at a pulse of 130-150 for the next 4 weeks and then move into replacing 2 of the long runs with intervals over the last 4 weeks. You could do one set of intervals over 400m with 2 min rest recovery say 6 x 400m and one shorter set say 6 x 150m with walk back recovery although you do need to be careful about straining a muscle in running short sprints. You could do hills instead or 6 x 50m shuttles or try a lap or two of 50m fast/50 slow-repeat two or three times.
By the way Jamieson usually takes resting pulse as the base indicator of aerobic fitness. What is yours.
I truly think that people overcomplicate this. Run. Run long distance, run short distance, do sprints, run hills, push a prowler, flip a tire, run shuttle runs, whatever.
When you combine all of this with skill work, which is massively taxing, you’ll be ok.
Again, it’s like people talking for four different threads about Wendler’s 5/3/1. Just go fucking lift.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Run. Spar. Do padwork. Fight more.[/quote]
/thread
somebody needs to stop this
I do not think that the technical tactical and physical preparation required to produce effective performance at any decent competitive level can be reduced to the slogan of “Just do it”
As much as we may find simplicity appealing proper preparation needs careful thought and planning.
[quote]peterm533 wrote:
I do not think that the technical tactical and physical preparation required to produce effective performance at any decent competitive level can be reduced to the slogan of “Just do it”
As much as we may find simplicity appealing proper preparation needs careful thought and planning.[/quote]
exactly, imagine if boxing coaches advice was “go out and fight” it’s ridiculous.
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]goldengloves wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
ugh you all are so dumb[/quote]
Only about things we know nothing about. hint…hint[/quote]
No you’re wrong, but I’m done arguing science and facts are dumb, you are all right. Man to think all the countless thousands of fighters doing their morning roadwork had it all wrong. Someone should go to to Thailand and tell them they have it wrong too.[/quote]
I don’t know, does weight training and gaining muscle mass really just make you bulky and slow? That’s the sentiment in boxing not long ago, some fighters still feel that way.
[quote]Beast Status wrote:
Sprints have their place. We drill pad work for 1.5 hours straight, jog 3-5 miles and use sprints. More for the effect of getting the heart rate up and back down. To simulate rests between rounds. Sprints dont seem to keep the gas in the tank as long as extended periods with a high heart rate. It does however accustom your heart to go from an elevated rate and then while resting back down to a lower BPM much faster. Thus giving your body better recoop in between rounds.
Also…OP is asking about kickboxing, not boxing. Not a big deal, but I didnt know if you caught that.
Are you involved with the golden gloves program? We have a great program up here in my area of vermont.[/quote]
Boxing is just my background and what I’m involved with.
I’m not involved with the GG program in that sense, I don’t have the time for it now. Once I’m finished with grad school I’d like to get certified by USA boxing and become a trainer at a nonprofit gym, currently I work with nonprofit gyms to improve their S&C “programs”. I’d also like to get involved with the amateur programs by reffing or being a judge too.
[/quote]
No I would never say lifting is bad it depends on the boxer really. Does he need to get stronger? But there are some consequences of hypertrophy (the ratio of oxidative to glycolytic muscle tissue). I tell him to do aerobic work for endurance and that anerobic isn’t really what he needs right now and suddenly I’m a troll? Whatever[/quote]
Wow. To add to wHAT MUST already rock bottome self esteem for you to be acting like this on the web, put down the science book and go gain some real world experience, and secondly virtually all elite combat trainers have embraced strength training and ANAEROBIC traINING BECAUSE of what science has taught us about the demands of the sport.
Thirdly, if done in an intelligent manner, the improvements in your metabolic systems incurred from aerobic training will be seen with anerobic work and strength training.
And ea, years of fighters did have it wrong, for years virtually all athletes did “roadwork” regardless of the energy demands of the sport.
[/quote]
Uh no bring me some legit literature explaining how the bodies energy systems work. Now go a long idiot.[/quote]
since Im at work and have no texts with me, I did a two second google search (have you ever tried that) to give you a little “legit literature”
“Sprint training is becoming a popular way to train for elite as well as recreational exercisers because it works. Recent studies of sprint training with cyclists showed greater cardiovascular results in less time. In fact, one study found that just six sessions of four to seven all-out thirty-second sprints (with four minutes of recovery between sprints) could be as effective at improving cardiovascular fitness as an hour of daily moderate-level aerobic exercise.”
Hugh, so through using short explosive bursts of energy, like those seen in ring/octaGOn we improve our long term aerobic ability. I could go and pull so much more, but the tone here has been someone who has no real interest in expanding their knowledge.
[quote]peterm533 wrote:
However just to throw out something specific to consider (or discard) why not try developing your aerobic system by running for extended periods at a pulse of 130-150 for the next 4 weeks and then move into replacing 2 of the long runs with intervals over the last 4 weeks. You could do one set of intervals over 400m with 2 min rest recovery say 6 x 400m and one shorter set say 6 x 150m with walk back recovery although you do need to be careful about straining a muscle in running short sprints. You could do hills instead or 6 x 50m shuttles or try a lap or two of 50m fast/50 slow-repeat two or three times.
By the way Jamieson usually takes resting pulse as the base indicator of aerobic fitness. What is yours.
[/quote]
that sounds like a solid plan. Hopefully the snow melts soon otherwise sprinting might be a bit difficult. resting pulse is 60 (after I’ve been sitting for about 3 minutes and I just ate something)
Arguing with someone who’s never boxed is pointless.
Yesterday I did three rounds on a 250 lb. heavy bag. Later in the workout I ran a mile and a half. The run was just a fuckin cake walk compared to working the bag hard, and really sparring and having punches come at you is twice as exhausting.
I actually thought of this thread, and of the ridiculousness of thinking that extensive aerobic work will mean you don’t gas.
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]peterm533 wrote:
I do not think that the technical tactical and physical preparation required to produce effective performance at any decent competitive level can be reduced to the slogan of “Just do it”
As much as we may find simplicity appealing proper preparation needs careful thought and planning.[/quote]
exactly, imagine if boxing coaches advice was “go out and fight” it’s ridiculous.[/quote]
Get off his coat-tail and post an understandable,valid stance for a change. I will lead by example for ya…see below.
[quote]peterm533 wrote:
I do not think that the technical tactical and physical preparation required to produce effective performance at any decent competitive level can be reduced to the slogan of “Just do it”
As much as we may find simplicity appealing proper preparation needs careful thought and planning.[/quote]
I think you’re over-simplifying what was stated. No one has excluded technical,tactical,and physical prep in exchange for “Just do it.” Remember,this “debate” is about only one aspect of what is needed for effective performance(endurance)…and the best ways to attain that.
You made an interesting post about Jamieson’s views. Most of us agree. But there was no mistaking that sardines12 thinks anaerobic energy IS NOT required for fight sport endurance…all that is needed is aerobic energy.
To quote sardines12:
“If his endurance is poor why in the world would he do sprints.”
To quote Jamieson(since he’s come up in this discussion):
“I can tell you that to successfully meet the energy demands of this type of event, an athlete must have the right balance between aerobic and anaerobic systems. This is the real key to conditioning, as well as performance in general, in my opinion.”
“When a fighter has too much development on one side or the other of this equation, they are asking for problems. A fighter with a great deal of anaerobic development and poor aerobic fitness, for example, will not be able to use his anaerobic power for very long because the aerobic side wonâ??t be there to handle the fatigue inducing byproducts of anaerobic metabolism and the fighter will gas.”
“A fighter with great aerobic development but low levels of anaerobic development, on the other hand, may not fatigue to nearly the same level throughout a fight, but they will likely have poor explosiveness and strength and may get overpowered by a stronger opponent.”
With that,I really don’t think the “Just Do It” advice of run(all types) more,spar more,and technique more is too simple for the OP. That is,if all we’re talking is building his sport-specific endurance up…which we were. Hell,you even agreed that actually boxing and doing boxing-related work might be the best thing for him in your first post.
Basically,Poster A is wrong for saying not to do any roadwork…just sprint. Poster B is wrong for saying not to do any sprints…just do roadwork. But in reality…you should do both. Especially for the OP…here’s a clue in his first post:
“unfortunately my training for the last ten weeks has been DeFrancos WS4SB. (which is an awesome program for increasing strength but does very little for conditioning).”
Sounds to me he should be the poster boy to follow the simplicity of Run more…Spar more…Technique more. Keeping in mind what Jamieson states,WS4SB is not going to give him endurance needed for kickboxing…by itself. Neither will road work…by itself.
It’s always a challenge with these type threads…because we really don’t have all the facts about a person’s training. How often are they sparring?? Working technique?? If so,for how long?? Do they just show up to spar and not do enough padwork?? You really can’t give any advice beyond the basics without knowing more about them.
Also,it doesn’t help when people post things they obviously don’t have experience with. Not saying I’m an expert on these things. But,when these people are called out and asked to elaborate…they can’t…and resort to childish “I’m right,you are wrong” crap and tuck tail…sardines12. They’re not looking to help…they just want to be right and “prove” everyone else wrong. Advice from experience is always more helpful than hypothetical “They say do this…so do that” recommendations. I would take the advice from someone who just runs hills and spars 10 rounds every week than the person quoting Charlie Francis. Just saying.
What works for one person…doesn’t for the next. That is,if we get beyond the basics of training for their particular fight sport. Too much talk on these threads about 5/3/1…or Crossfit. No one really mentions their actual fight sport training. Critique your bag work?? Shit…lets critique your pad work…your sparring…your shadowboxing…your timing sparring(effective as fuck). Efficient technique is big component of endurance as well. I’m not picking on anyone…just painting a picture.
sigh I could rant on forever…as I haven’t posted much in a while. I will cut this…and just say the we agree…a lot.
Great, great post Big Boss.
And that’s the thing- being efficient in your technique will save more energy than anything else.
You can run 12 miles a day and sprint all night, but if you’re fighting with clenched fists and going for a KO with every punch, you’ll gas inside four rounds. Ask George Foreman.
These are things, however, that won’t be learned from some fuckin book written by a doctoral candidate, but you’ll pick them up in two rounds of heavy bag work and listening to a video of Roger Mayweather on youtube.
By the way, I just switched to 5/3/1 and love it. It doesn’t drain me as much as Westside for skinny bastards did, and gives me way more time for boxing work and conditioning.
Partybison,
Jamieson has a pulse rate in the low 50’s as a good indicator of aerobic fitness (unless genetically you simply have a very low pulse rate to start with) so by his reckoning you do need to improve your aerobic fitness.
Hopefully you will be able to run intervals when the time comes but if not you should be able to find
a short space to run a series of shuttles with suitable rests between series.
If not that you will I guess need to rely on short intensive circuits if the sparring does not suffice.
Just to elaborate on the 400’s should you or anyone else decide to do them. The aim is to finish the whole set with the prescribed rest period so you do run them at a decent effort to be taxing but not all out so that you cannot recover to run the next within the 1-2 minutes rest period. I generally say that you need to go fast enough so that your breathing is stressed but not so fast that you lose control of your form.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
[quote]peterm533 wrote:
I do not think that the technical tactical and physical preparation required to produce effective performance at any decent competitive level can be reduced to the slogan of “Just do it”
As much as we may find simplicity appealing proper preparation needs careful thought and planning.[/quote]
I think you’re over-simplifying what was stated. No one has excluded technical,tactical,and physical prep in exchange for “Just do it.” Remember,this “debate” is about only one aspect of what is needed for effective performance(endurance)…and the best ways to attain that.
You made an interesting post about Jamieson’s views. Most of us agree. But there was no mistaking that sardines12 thinks anaerobic energy IS NOT required for fight sport endurance…all that is needed is aerobic energy.
To quote sardines12:
“If his endurance is poor why in the world would he do sprints.”
To quote Jamieson(since he’s come up in this discussion):
“I can tell you that to successfully meet the energy demands of this type of event, an athlete must have the right balance between aerobic and anaerobic systems. This is the real key to conditioning, as well as performance in general, in my opinion.”
“When a fighter has too much development on one side or the other of this equation, they are asking for problems. A fighter with a great deal of anaerobic development and poor aerobic fitness, for example, will not be able to use his anaerobic power for very long because the aerobic side wonÃ?¢??t be there to handle the fatigue inducing byproducts of anaerobic metabolism and the fighter will gas.”
“A fighter with great aerobic development but low levels of anaerobic development, on the other hand, may not fatigue to nearly the same level throughout a fight, but they will likely have poor explosiveness and strength and may get overpowered by a stronger opponent.”
With that,I really don’t think the “Just Do It” advice of run(all types) more,spar more,and technique more is too simple for the OP. That is,if all we’re talking is building his sport-specific endurance up…which we were. Hell,you even agreed that actually boxing and doing boxing-related work might be the best thing for him in your first post.
Basically,Poster A is wrong for saying not to do any roadwork…just sprint. Poster B is wrong for saying not to do any sprints…just do roadwork. But in reality…you should do both. Especially for the OP…here’s a clue in his first post:
“unfortunately my training for the last ten weeks has been DeFrancos WS4SB. (which is an awesome program for increasing strength but does very little for conditioning).”
Sounds to me he should be the poster boy to follow the simplicity of Run more…Spar more…Technique more. Keeping in mind what Jamieson states,WS4SB is not going to give him endurance needed for kickboxing…by itself. Neither will road work…by itself.
It’s always a challenge with these type threads…because we really don’t have all the facts about a person’s training. How often are they sparring?? Working technique?? If so,for how long?? Do they just show up to spar and not do enough padwork?? You really can’t give any advice beyond the basics without knowing more about them.
Also,it doesn’t help when people post things they obviously don’t have experience with. Not saying I’m an expert on these things. But,when these people are called out and asked to elaborate…they can’t…and resort to childish “I’m right,you are wrong” crap and tuck tail…sardines12. They’re not looking to help…they just want to be right and “prove” everyone else wrong. Advice from experience is always more helpful than hypothetical “They say do this…so do that” recommendations. I would take the advice from someone who just runs hills and spars 10 rounds every week than the person quoting Charlie Francis. Just saying.
What works for one person…doesn’t for the next. That is,if we get beyond the basics of training for their particular fight sport. Too much talk on these threads about 5/3/1…or Crossfit. No one really mentions their actual fight sport training. Critique your bag work?? Shit…lets critique your pad work…your sparring…your shadowboxing…your timing sparring(effective as fuck). Efficient technique is big component of endurance as well. I’m not picking on anyone…just painting a picture.
sigh I could rant on forever…as I haven’t posted much in a while. I will cut this…and just say the we agree…a lot. [/quote]
AMEN
Silverdan7,
I am not writing for Sardines 12 but to put his argument in context you do have to appreciate that after years of emphasising anaerobic glycolytic training there has been something of a recent shift away from a heavy reliance on sprint type work for fight training (or perhaps more correctly for MMA) to an emphasis on the importance of the development of the aerobic system.
I know that you will read a lot about the need for anaerobic training and you made reference knowingly or not to the Tabata study but I tried to point you in the direction of the work of Joel Jamieon and more recent research on energy production to balance this. So whether or not you agree with him, he is representing what is pretty much a recent approach to MMA/fight training.
Am I guilty of oversimplifying an oversimplification?
The exhortation was made above to Just do it. While I accept what may have been the intent behind the quote that committing to the task and working hard must triumph over endless theoretical speculation and discussion of the minutiae of a program I cannot accept that a prescription of just working out is the most useful thing that can be said. Of course wrestlers must do a lot of wrestling and boxers a lot of boxing but
to me that really does not say anywhere near enough.
You are quite right that we know little or nothing about the OPs training so inevitably we are talking generalities but in so far as we are on a conditioning forum answering a question about cardio respiratory endurance surely we have more meaningful experience to impart than simply to urge more of everything.
Did Sardines 12 say that anaerobic energy is NOT required for fight sport endurance?
What I think he said was that boxing is an aerobic alactic sport with the MAIN (my capitals) energy system utilized being the aerobic system and that if the OPs endurance was poor he had to focus on that first. Is that not a prescription straight out of Ultimate MMA conditioning?
Boxing is not aerobic. MMA is even less so. The basis for his bullshit is wrong, and therefore nothin else in the argument matters.