I Want My Endurance Back

Training
61

[quote]peterm533 wrote:
Am I guilty of oversimplifying an oversimplification?

The exhortation was made above to Just do it. While I accept what may have been the intent behind the quote that committing to the task and working hard must triumph over endless theoretical speculation and discussion of the minutiae of a program I cannot accept that a prescription of just working out is the most useful thing that can be said. Of course wrestlers must do a lot of wrestling and boxers a lot of boxing but
to me that really does not say anywhere near enough.

You are quite right that we know little or nothing about the OPs training so inevitably we are talking generalities but in so far as we are on a conditioning forum answering a question about cardio respiratory endurance surely we have more meaningful experience to impart than simply to urge more of everything.

Did Sardines 12 say that anaerobic energy is NOT required for fight sport endurance?
What I think he said was that boxing is an aerobic alactic sport with the MAIN (my capitals) energy system utilized being the aerobic system and that if the OPs endurance was poor he had to focus on that first. Is that not a prescription straight out of Ultimate MMA conditioning?

[/quote]
Just give it up, these guys aren’t going to listen.

62

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Just give it up, these guys aren’t going to listen.[/quote]

You’re goddamned right I’m not going to listen, YOU’VE NEVER FUCKING BOXED!!!

Who in their right mind would ever listen to you about something you know nothing about except what you’ve read in some book?

63

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Just give it up, these guys aren’t going to listen.[/quote]

You’re goddamned right I’m not going to listen, YOU’VE NEVER FUCKING BOXED!!!

Who in their right mind would ever listen to you about something you know nothing about except what you’ve read in some book?

[/quote]
When you have a poor knowledge of the bodies energy systems your experience does not matter. You also make know sense you have never boxed at a high level, yet you ignore what pretty much all top pro boxers do which is road work and long aerobic running?

64

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Just give it up, these guys aren’t going to listen.[/quote]

You’re goddamned right I’m not going to listen, YOU’VE NEVER FUCKING BOXED!!!

Who in their right mind would ever listen to you about something you know nothing about except what you’ve read in some book?

[/quote]
When you have a poor knowledge of the bodies energy systems your experience does not matter. You also make know sense you have never boxed at a high level, yet you ignore what pretty much all top pro boxers do which is road work and long aerobic running?[/quote]

So what? Pro boxers gas, even the ones who run for miles and miles.

For the last time- You don’t box. You never have boxed. Therefore, you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.

It’s like someone on welfare trying to tell you how to become a millionaire. Just fucking ridiculous.

65

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Just give it up, these guys aren’t going to listen.[/quote]

You’re goddamned right I’m not going to listen, YOU’VE NEVER FUCKING BOXED!!!

Who in their right mind would ever listen to you about something you know nothing about except what you’ve read in some book?

[/quote]
When you have a poor knowledge of the bodies energy systems your experience does not matter. You also make know sense you have never boxed at a high level, yet you ignore what pretty much all top pro boxers do which is road work and long aerobic running?[/quote]

Experience trumps science everytime. If you haven’t done the sport, you cannot knowledgeably comment on its demands.

66

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Just give it up, these guys aren’t going to listen.[/quote]

You’re goddamned right I’m not going to listen, YOU’VE NEVER FUCKING BOXED!!!

Who in their right mind would ever listen to you about something you know nothing about except what you’ve read in some book?

[/quote]
When you have a poor knowledge of the bodies energy systems your experience does not matter. You also make know sense you have never boxed at a high level, yet you ignore what pretty much all top pro boxers do which is road work and long aerobic running?[/quote]

Experience trumps science everytime. If you haven’t done the sport, you cannot knowledgeably comment on its demands.[/quote]
When you think blue is black or an orange is an apple this does not apply. It’s really not hard to understand, your understanding of what aerobic and anaerobic is, is rudimentary and flawed.

67

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Just give it up, these guys aren’t going to listen.[/quote]

You’re goddamned right I’m not going to listen, YOU’VE NEVER FUCKING BOXED!!!

Who in their right mind would ever listen to you about something you know nothing about except what you’ve read in some book?

[/quote]
When you have a poor knowledge of the bodies energy systems your experience does not matter. You also make know sense you have never boxed at a high level, yet you ignore what pretty much all top pro boxers do which is road work and long aerobic running?[/quote]

So what? Pro boxers gas, even the ones who run for miles and miles.

For the last time- You don’t box. You never have boxed. Therefore, you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.

It’s like someone on welfare trying to tell you how to become a millionaire. Just fucking ridiculous.
[/quote]
Your like someone who won the lottery trying to tell people how to become a millionaire. Right is right and wrong is wrong, you are wrong, get over it.

68

Experience trumps science everytime. If you haven’t done the sport, you cannot knowledgeably comment on its demands.

…or presumably coach it both of which are I think questionable assertions.

It is wrong to believe that Sardines 12 is asserting some wildly ignorant and improbable view about the energy demands of fighting and unfortunately personality and emotion have clouded the argument.

You may not find Sardines 12 view persuasive but it is totally in line with that put forward by Joel Jamieson
who is not only extremely well versed in exercise physiology but also is a trainer of UFC pro fighters
such as Franklin, Pulver, Leben and others.

You may not agree with him, his observations, his extensive testing and his experience of training pro fighters but if as Fighting Irish has asserted you consider that MMA is not aerobic (or predominantly aerobic) you need more than simply a perception of how you feel hitting the bag to rubbish his views.

I really do understand ( as all of us who have competed in fight sports will understand) that Fighting Irish feels that boxing/MMA is anaerobic because of the severe physical demands but if you sprinted 400m you would probably be seriously gassed and yet over 40% of the energy requirement would be fuelled aerobically. If you ran 800m or say 2 minutes of effort I guarantee that you would be even more distressed but guess what? Despite your feeling of complete exhaustion the aerobic/anaerobic ratios would be at least 60/40.

69

What’s questionable about that? I wouldn’t take coaching advice from someone who hasn’t done my sport. A person doesn’t have to be a high level competitor or anything, but if they don’t have experience with it, they lack first hand knowledge to comment accurately on it, and certainly to coach it.

As for science trumping experience everytime, yes that’s questionable, I take that back, heheh. Just trying to drive a point across.

70

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
When you think blue is black or an orange is an apple this does not apply. It’s really not hard to understand, your understanding of what aerobic and anaerobic is, is rudimentary and flawed.[/quote]

To be perfectly honest, I do somewhat agree with you in the context of BJJ. I started it with a good aerobic base (1.6 miles in 9:30, just under 2hrs for a half marathon) and found that it helped with conditioning, and even pacing… on the mat. On the feet I’d gas out quickly playing takedowns, and it was more than a pacing issue (repeated explosive movement).

How does that translate to this discussion? It doesn’t, because this discussion is about boxing, which you and I haven’t done for any length of time (throwing down with your buddies in the backyard doesn’t count), and hence are not educated enough to say what type of cardio training works best.

71

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Your like someone who won the lottery trying to tell people how to become a millionaire. Right is right and wrong is wrong, you are wrong, get over it.[/quote]

How? I’ve participated in the sport extensively over the past three years. I didn’t fall into it and I’m certainly not Floyd Mayweather. I’ve built my skill and conditioning base up from being a smoker with a gut to a guy who who can go for rounds in training and then run a couple miles.

But right, you must be right. Even though you’ve offered nothing in the way of explanation or experience. What a waste. If people want to listen to somebody who’s never done it, they’re free to do so. But when they gas in round 3 because all they did was run 8 miles a day (hey Sugar Shane), it’s on you.

72

[quote]peterm533 wrote:
Experience trumps science everytime. If you haven’t done the sport, you cannot knowledgeably comment on its demands.

…or presumably coach it both of which are I think questionable assertions.

It is wrong to believe that Sardines 12 is asserting some wildly ignorant and improbable view about the energy demands of fighting and unfortunately personality and emotion have clouded the argument.

You may not find Sardines 12 view persuasive but it is totally in line with that put forward by Joel Jamieson
who is not only extremely well versed in exercise physiology but also is a trainer of UFC pro fighters
such as Franklin, Pulver, Leben and others.

You may not agree with him, his observations, his extensive testing and his experience of training pro fighters but if as Fighting Irish has asserted you consider that MMA is not aerobic (or predominantly aerobic) you need more than simply a perception of how you feel hitting the bag to rubbish his views.
[/quote]

Goldengloves gave that earlier when he said he’s trained amateurs and had success with them running sprints, etc.

I’ve found the same thing with myself, and I’ve seen fighters I’ve been around do the same.

And there’s plenty of trainers that have their fights doing the same thing in pro boxing.

I don’t know who Jamieson is and I don’t care. I know what I see first hand, and what boxing trainers themselves do. That whole “first hand” thing is lacking severely here though.

I am not saying not to run for long distances! Or that boxing is not, in part, aerobic. But the idea that he put forward saying sprints don’t have a place is fucking asinine, ESPECIALLY coming from somebody who doesn’t know what the sport requires.

And boxing (or kickboxing) is one of those sports that you really have to have first hand experience in or else you cannot understand the beating it puts on you, as well as the pyschological factors involved.

73

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]peterm533 wrote:
Experience trumps science everytime. If you haven’t done the sport, you cannot knowledgeably comment on its demands.

…or presumably coach it both of which are I think questionable assertions.

It is wrong to believe that Sardines 12 is asserting some wildly ignorant and improbable view about the energy demands of fighting and unfortunately personality and emotion have clouded the argument.

You may not find Sardines 12 view persuasive but it is totally in line with that put forward by Joel Jamieson
who is not only extremely well versed in exercise physiology but also is a trainer of UFC pro fighters
such as Franklin, Pulver, Leben and others.

You may not agree with him, his observations, his extensive testing and his experience of training pro fighters but if as Fighting Irish has asserted you consider that MMA is not aerobic (or predominantly aerobic) you need more than simply a perception of how you feel hitting the bag to rubbish his views.
[/quote]

Goldengloves gave that earlier when he said he’s trained amateurs and had success with them running sprints, etc.

I’ve found the same thing with myself, and I’ve seen fighters I’ve been around do the same.

And there’s plenty of trainers that have their fights doing the same thing in pro boxing.

I don’t know who Jamieson is and I don’t care. I know what I see first hand, and what boxing trainers themselves do. That whole “first hand” thing is lacking severely here though.

I am not saying not to run for long distances! Or that boxing is not, in part, aerobic. But the idea that he put forward saying sprints don’t have a place is fucking asinine, ESPECIALLY coming from somebody who doesn’t know what the sport requires.

And boxing (or kickboxing) is one of those sports that you really have to have first hand experience in or else you cannot understand the beating it puts on you, as well as the pyschological factors involved.[/quote]
READ WHAT I POSTED you moron.

74

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
READ WHAT I POSTED you moron.[/quote]

I did. It’s still wrong, just like it was when you posted it. Now move along nancy, or go get in a ring. Then maybe you can say otherwise.

75

hey here’s a good idea to stop the online war is have a BOXING MATCH and that should solve issues all around
between irish and sardines… and my money is on irish!

76

empty barrels make the most noise

77

Hai,

the art of fighting with out fighting

78

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]peterm533 wrote:
Experience trumps science everytime. If you haven’t done the sport, you cannot knowledgeably comment on its demands.

…or presumably coach it both of which are I think questionable assertions.

It is wrong to believe that Sardines 12 is asserting some wildly ignorant and improbable view about the energy demands of fighting and unfortunately personality and emotion have clouded the argument.

You may not find Sardines 12 view persuasive but it is totally in line with that put forward by Joel Jamieson
who is not only extremely well versed in exercise physiology but also is a trainer of UFC pro fighters
such as Franklin, Pulver, Leben and others.

You may not agree with him, his observations, his extensive testing and his experience of training pro fighters but if as Fighting Irish has asserted you consider that MMA is not aerobic (or predominantly aerobic) you need more than simply a perception of how you feel hitting the bag to rubbish his views.
[/quote]

Goldengloves gave that earlier when he said he’s trained amateurs and had success with them running sprints, etc.

I’ve found the same thing with myself, and I’ve seen fighters I’ve been around do the same.

And there’s plenty of trainers that have their fights doing the same thing in pro boxing.

I don’t know who Jamieson is and I don’t care. I know what I see first hand, and what boxing trainers themselves do. That whole “first hand” thing is lacking severely here though.

I am not saying not to run for long distances! Or that boxing is not, in part, aerobic. But the idea that he put forward saying sprints don’t have a place is fucking asinine, ESPECIALLY coming from somebody who doesn’t know what the sport requires.

And boxing (or kickboxing) is one of those sports that you really have to have first hand experience in or else you cannot understand the beating it puts on you, as well as the pyschological factors involved.[/quote]

What you originally said was: Boxing is not aerobic. MMA is even less so.

You now say: Boxing is IN PART ( my capitals) aerobic.

Whether you still believe that MMA is not aerobic is not clear.

You say that you are not saying not to run long distances which is fair enough but you appear to be attacking Sardines for asserting that sprints do not have a place.

Honestly he made no such assertion. He made it clear that boxing is primarily an aerobic alactic sport and that if the OPs problem was poor endurance then he had to concentrate on improving his aerobic capacity. He specifically said that sprints can be helpful.

I do understand that the demands of boxing are severe but I also tried to explain that subjective feeling about the energy systems being utilised is not necessarily a good indicator
of the contributions being made by the aerobic and anaerobic systems.

I do not think this is about long distance running v sprints or aerobic v anaerobic training.
Clearly both have their part to play. It is I think about making an assessment of the energetic requirements of the sport AND attributes of the individual and making training recommendations which address the needs of the athlete.

Recent work on the energy systems and the work of Jamieson who you are wrong to dismiss
suggests strongly that the aerobic system needs more attention than previously thought.

I think that people here might like to consider not attacking the messenger and think more about the message. If you have strong reasons to believe that the analysis of the metabolic
demands of boxing/MMA etc is wrong or that a leading pro UFC trainer has no idea what he talking about then I am open to hear that reasoning.

79

Sprinting is going to be your number one way to get back in shape for a fight for kickboxing. It’s going to help a lot in terms of maintaining explosive power throughout the match.

If you’re going to do long runs, limit it to 1-2 times a week and use the rest for sprinting. Obviously, this is outside of your normal sparring, pad/bag work, and strength training.

As an experienced kickboxer, I can say that running does help for in between rounds (1 minute break, 2 minute rounds), but sprints made a huge difference in my ability to keep explosive power during the actual match. I’ve tried a few different training routines, and the one that worked best for me was 1 long distance/steady pace run per week, with sprinting on any day that I didn’t need to recover on.

Also, if you’re gassing out by your third round, you need to pace yourself a little better… or find that little extra bit of desire to finish the match. Fighting has a massive psychological aspect to it as well, don’t ever doubt your conditioning. Good luck in your fight.

80

[quote]peterm533 wrote:
Am I guilty of oversimplifying an oversimplification?

The exhortation was made above to Just do it. While I accept what may have been the intent behind the quote that committing to the task and working hard must triumph over endless theoretical speculation and discussion of the minutiae of a program I cannot accept that a prescription of just working out is the most useful thing that can be said. Of course wrestlers must do a lot of wrestling and boxers a lot of boxing but
to me that really does not say anywhere near enough.

You are quite right that we know little or nothing about the OPs training so inevitably we are talking generalities but in so far as we are on a conditioning forum answering a question about cardio respiratory endurance surely we have more meaningful experience to impart than simply to urge more of everything.

Did Sardines 12 say that anaerobic energy is NOT required for fight sport endurance?
What I think he said was that boxing is an aerobic alactic sport with the MAIN (my capitals) energy system utilized being the aerobic system and that if the OPs endurance was poor he had to focus on that first. Is that not a prescription straight out of Ultimate MMA conditioning?

[/quote]

Like I already mentioned…we don’t know enough about the OP’s training. If he hasn’t been training his fighting sport for past 10 weeks,the prescription before concentrating on whatever is making him gas is getting back to doing more kickboxing training(padwork,sparring,etc).

I’m not judging the OP,but anyone who has been consistently working pads,sparring,etc for some time is not going to gas two rounds into sparring. Which leads us back to square one…we don’t know enough about the OP’s training. He needs to clarify if he’s done nothing but lift weights for 10 weeks and not done any padwork,skillwork,or sparring in that time span.

Then we can say…hey you need to do more roadwork…OR sprints…OR BOTH…or whatever.