[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Cons with 3 day/week training:
-Major overlap (you have to train at least half your body per session)
-Not as many growth hormone/t-level boosts
-Usually requires training beyond “optimal anabolic window” per session (catabolism vs anabolism)
-Causes big muscle imbalances
-Rarely can do even 2 exercises per bodypart (without going “overtime”)
What is ignorant and closed minded about pointing out the obvious drawbacks such as the points above?[/quote]
Hilarious! Where did you get all of that nonsense from?[/quote]
I’m glad you found it funny.
Can you explain (instead of just calling it nonsense)…
I’m not saying 3 days per week won’t work, just that it’s not as efficient as more frequent training. I still workout 3 days per week (due to circumstances), but as soon as I can, I’ll be moving onto a 3 way split done about 5 times per week. I’ve gained at least 70lbs doing the 3 day/week routine. Done all variations (from full body, to upper/lower etc)…but one things for sure, now I need more overall exercises and fewer exercises per session to grow better…
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Cons with 3 day/week training:
-Major overlap (you have to train at least half your body per session)
[/quote]
No, not necessarily. There is going to be some overlap (show me any split that doesn’t have at least some), but depending on how you set up your split there will be varying degrees.
Also, you don’t have to train at least half your body per session. For instance a “push/pull/legs” split would have you training chest, shoulders, and tris one day, biceps, forearms, and back another, and quads, hamstrings/glutes, and calves the third.
Again, it depends on how you set up your split.
Maybe, but you also have more time for rest and recovery. It’s a trade off and I’m not saying that one is necessarily better than the other. It’s again going to depend on the individual and the way the training split is set up.
Honestly that whole “optimal anabolic window” stuff never really held all that much water IME. I know quite a few big dudes who’s workouts last well beyond 1 hr.
Really? Please explain.
Again depends on the split. In some cases that’s true, in others it’s not.
[quote]
What is ignorant and closed minded about pointing out the obvious drawbacks such as the points above?
Hilarious! Where did you get all of that nonsense from?
I’m glad you found it funny.
Can you explain (instead of just calling it nonsense)…
I’m not saying 3 days per week won’t work, just that it’s not as efficient as more frequent training. I still workout 3 days per week (due to circumstances), but as soon as I can, I’ll be moving onto a 3 way split done about 5 times per week. I’ve gained at least 70lbs doing the 3 day/week routine. Done all variations (from full body, to upper/lower etc)…but one things for sure, now I need more overall exercises and fewer exercises per session to grow better…[/quote]
BTW, not trying to convince you not to switch to a 5x per week routine. If you feel like that’s the next step you have to take in order to continue progressing, then by all means do it. Just pointing out some things you may have not considered.
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
Poor translator, my friend. You’re likely using the same one for both languages, and it shows.
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
Et qu’est-ce qui se passe avec avec la langue franÃ??Ã?§aise en ton posts?
Tu es fran�?�§ais ou pede ou quois?
[/quote]
[/quote]
I don’t think it does, my Portuguese is impeccable, because, well, I was born here. My French is a bit rusty, I’ll give you that. Seriously, you’re just trollimg around at this point. Is it so hard to remain on-topic for you?
Se pensas que nao sou portugues entao vai apanhar no cu seu frances do caralho.
Also I agree with everything sentoguy said. His example of a push/pull/legs is a good one, that and an upper/lower done on an ABA schedualle will have less overlap than some 5 way splits.
And that whole “optimal anabolic window” doesn’t really matter much on the grand scheme of things, no matter what those idiots who write for Flex say.
Again, unless you’re planning to compete on Mr O, 3 times a week, as long as you’re progressing, will give you all the mass you need.
And unless you’re doing just chest and bicep like some idiots, I don’t get how 3 times a week will develop any more muscle imbalance than 14 times a week.
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
Again, unless you’re planning to compete on Mr O, 3 times a week, as long as you’re progressing, will give you all the mass you need.
[/quote]
Well, like I said, it depends on the individual and the split.
After a certain point of development, most people (in fact just about everyone) are going to have to train more than 3 days a week and use at least a 3 way split. Things like (true) lagging body parts, symmetry, the simple fact that they’re using huge weights and wouldn’t be able to recover from a higher frequency of training, and the like are going to pretty much mandate that they do this.
That doesn’t mean that you can’t put on a lot of muscle mass using a 3x per week or 2 way split though. It just means that if actually stepping on stage is your primary concern, you’re going to eventually need to switch to a lower frequency and more focused training split.
People have mentioned DC in this thread, but don’t forget that there are two DC splits. The “2 way” split is the one that was addressed in the article “How to build 50 lbs in 12 months” and is the one most commonly discussed/referenced when talking about DC. This is split is meant to get intermediate level BB’ers to advanced levels of development asap.
But, there is another DC split, the “3 way” split, which is done 4x a week, and is more focused on things like bringing up lagging body parts, creating symmetry, etc… This split is meant to be done by Advanced bodybuilders (guys like Dave Henry) who have basically outgrown the 2 way split, have already build a large amount of muscle, and need to focus more on refining.
So, even in terms of DC training, it’s recognized that 3x per week will only take you so far.
And obviously I’m not saying that this is the only way to get to an advanced level of development, or that a more traditional BB’ing split won’t work for beginners or intermediates. They’re just different roads to the same goal. Pick something that appeals to you, stick to it and be consistent, progress and eat/rest, and most reasonably designed programs will produce results.
So Prof X, Brick, and others are correct that training at least 4 days a week is necessary in the context that they are speaking of.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
Cons with 3 day/week training:
-Major overlap (you have to train at least half your body per session)
[/quote]
No, not necessarily. There is going to be some overlap (show me any split that doesn’t have at least some), but depending on how you set up your split there will be varying degrees.
Also, you don’t have to train at least half your body per session. For instance a “push/pull/legs” split would have you training chest, shoulders, and tris one day, biceps, forearms, and back another, and quads, hamstrings/glutes, and calves the third.
Again, it depends on how you set up your split.
Maybe, but you also have more time for rest and recovery. It’s a trade off and I’m not saying that one is necessarily better than the other. It’s again going to depend on the individual and the way the training split is set up.
Honestly that whole “optimal anabolic window” stuff never really held all that much water IME. I know quite a few big dudes who’s workouts last well beyond 1 hr.
Really? Please explain.
Again depends on the split. In some cases that’s true, in others it’s not.
[quote]
What is ignorant and closed minded about pointing out the obvious drawbacks such as the points above?
Hilarious! Where did you get all of that nonsense from?
I’m glad you found it funny.
Can you explain (instead of just calling it nonsense)…
I’m not saying 3 days per week won’t work, just that it’s not as efficient as more frequent training. I still workout 3 days per week (due to circumstances), but as soon as I can, I’ll be moving onto a 3 way split done about 5 times per week. I’ve gained at least 70lbs doing the 3 day/week routine. Done all variations (from full body, to upper/lower etc)…but one things for sure, now I need more overall exercises and fewer exercises per session to grow better…[/quote]
BTW, not trying to convince you not to switch to a 5x per week routine. If you feel like that’s the next step you have to take in order to continue progressing, then by all means do it. Just pointing out some things you may have not considered.[/quote]
I have considered all the angles
I guess it wouldn’t be a problem if I felt that training every muscle group directly only once a week was the most effective way of training. So the push/pull/lower split wouldn’t cut it with me done 3x/week. Relatively speaking, I get my best gains hitting muscle groups twice every 5 or 6 days (as long as fatigue isn’t too high). So all that stuff about overlap and going overtime is mainly based on that.
The hormone boosting effects of training is not something I’ve just made up (it’s well known and one of the main principles behind High Frequency Training…something CT and CW are fond of). So long as fatigue is managed (i.e. recovery vs stimulation) then more frequent training is better. So the whole argument about 3 training sessions per week being better for recovery is neglecting the fact that higher frequency splits don’t have to have as much volume in them. Besides that, the more frequently you train, the more your appetite goes up, and you can eat like an animal and recover better…also you’re muscle to fat ratio tends to be higher - who doesn’t want all that?
As regards muscle imbalances, that all depends on how many exercises you can do efficiently each workout without a trade off. If you want to cover every muscle like the often neglected calves, forearms, hamstrings, upper chest, delts etc…then you’re talking about 8+ different exercises per workout (if only doing 3 times/week). I don’t know about anyone else, but I preffer to do around 3 compound movements and a small hand full of “small” ones (per workout) - this enables me to “give it my all” and I progress better.
[quote]tribunaldude wrote:
I can’t speak for the medical profession here, but speaking as someone who has a doctorate in engineering and currently engaged in full-time research for the french government (so to speak)…some of us actually do sit in front of a computer/laptop from 9 to 6 including meal breaks, and have shockingly risen above being constantly monitored by a superior.
Unless you’re a complete bottom-feeding minion in your profession, n’importe quelle…or you just don’t have access to the internet at work, I’m surprised if you can’t surf the web meme temps que travail Factor in the midlife crisis some of us older members are going through, its no mystery why some of us DO post all day long.
[quote] wrote:
I find it amazing for someone who is a “Professor” has enough time to train so often and also has time to put on over 30000 posts. I know quite a few doctors who work in emergency and they don’t have time to do a shit!
[/quote]
[/quote]
ah ouais ben je mettrait mes bottes dans ton cus si tu travallait pour moi
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
Again, unless you’re planning to compete on Mr O, 3 times a week, as long as you’re progressing, will give you all the mass you need.
[/quote]
Well, like I said, it depends on the individual and the split.
After a certain point of development, most people (in fact just about everyone) are going to have to train more than 3 days a week and use at least a 3 way split. Things like (true) lagging body parts, symmetry, the simple fact that they’re using huge weights and wouldn’t be able to recover from a higher frequency of training, and the like are going to pretty much mandate that they do this.
That doesn’t mean that you can’t put on a lot of muscle mass using a 3x per week or 2 way split though. It just means that if actually stepping on stage is your primary concern, you’re going to eventually need to switch to a lower frequency and more focused training split.
People have mentioned DC in this thread, but don’t forget that there are two DC splits. The “2 way” split is the one that was addressed in the article “How to build 50 lbs in 12 months” and is the one most commonly discussed/referenced when talking about DC. This is split is meant to get intermediate level BB’ers to advanced levels of development asap.
But, there is another DC split, the “3 way” split, which is done 4x a week, and is more focused on things like bringing up lagging body parts, creating symmetry, etc… This split is meant to be done by Advanced bodybuilders (guys like Dave Henry) who have basically outgrown the 2 way split, have already build a large amount of muscle, and need to focus more on refining.
So, even in terms of DC training, it’s recognized that 3x per week will only take you so far.
And obviously I’m not saying that this is the only way to get to an advanced level of development, or that a more traditional BB’ing split won’t work for beginners or intermediates. They’re just different roads to the same goal. Pick something that appeals to you, stick to it and be consistent, progress and eat/rest, and most reasonably designed programs will produce results.
So Prof X, Brick, and others are correct that training at least 4 days a week is necessary in the context that they are speaking of.[/quote]
They are, but that wasn’t really the context of the thread.
And for the record, I agree with what you said.
Sure, 3 times a week can only take you to a certain point, but that point can certainly be an advanced one, so I don’t think all that tirade about 3 times not being optimal or something for people who aren’t serious about this was really necessary or even helpful to the op.
Btw, you seem to be one of the most level-headed guys around here, man. Respect.
I cannot believe this troll is tolerated, and that people are actually conversing with him as if based on his posts that were thankfully removed he deserves any respect.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I have considered all the angles
I guess it wouldn’t be a problem if I felt that training every muscle group directly only once a week was the most effective way of training. So the push/pull/lower split wouldn’t cut it with me done 3x/week. Relatively speaking, I get my best gains hitting muscle groups twice every 5 or 6 days (as long as fatigue isn’t too high). So all that stuff about overlap and going overtime is mainly based on that.
[/quote]
Cool. Again, I’m not trying to convince you to train 3x per week. Just pointing out that such programs don’t necessarily have all that much overlap. Even a Push/Pull split done on a ABA (which would be about the frequency that you’re talking about) schedule wouldn’t have much overlap if you were smart with your exercise selection.
It’s highly publicized that’s true, but if you look at the studies that are often referenced, they’re poorly designed and really not very definitive.
I’m not arguing that the more often you are able to train a muscle and recover/repair/improve from that stimulus the faster your results are gonna be. Just that, depending on the intensity of the program (which you somewhat addressed), volume, aggressiveness of your strength progression, etc… more or less recovery may be called for.
As far as the appetite eating goes, yeah, training does stimulate appetite, but it also eats up calories. So you wind up having to eat more calories to continue to stay in a caloric surplus. For some people that might not be a problem, for others it might be. Again, depends on the individual.
[quote]
As regards muscle imbalances, that all depends on how many exercises you can do efficiently each workout without a trade off. If you want to cover every muscle like the often neglected calves, forearms, hamstrings, upper chest, delts etc…then you’re talking about 8+ different exercises per workout (if only doing 3 times/week). I don’t know about anyone else, but I preffer to do around 3 compound movements and a small hand full of “small” ones (per workout) - this enables me to “give it my all” and I progress better.[/quote]
Again, it depends on how you set up your program. The push/pull/legs split that I mentioned could have you doing the following for example on Push day:
That throws in some pre-exhaust for the chest (in case your chest was lagging), hits the upper pecs, hits the anterior and medial delt heads, and hits the lateral, medial, and long heads of the triceps in 7 exercises (which really could be done in close to the same time as 6 if you supersetted the cross-overs and DB flat bench).
Again, just an example.
Or, you could rotate exercises (much like the DC 2 way split) and just do a different exercise for each body part each time you did that workout.
So, for a “Pull” day you could do:
Wed:
-Incline DB curls
-Pinwheel curls
-Lying leg curls
-Rack chins
-Rack Deads
Mon:
-Standing EZ curls
-1 arm reverse cable curls
-Romanian deadlift
-chin-ups/pull-ups
-T-bar rows
Friday:
-1 arm DB Preacher curls
-BB wrist curls
-Seated Leg curls
-HS pull-over
-Face pulls
Again, not trying to convert you. Just pointing out that it can be done.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I cannot believe this troll is tolerated, and that people are actually conversing with him as if based on his posts that were thankfully removed he deserves any respect.[/quote]
Maybe because he has formed his own opinion on how to train. What do you want him to do? Agree with every word that professor x says and keep pumping him up like you do??? Get some backbone and stand on your own two feet. The problem I see at gym’s is that everyone just asks the biggest guy in the gym how he trains and thinks that if they do the same thing then they will get just as big. Ain’t going to happen.
Maybe because he has formed his own opinion on how to train. What do you want him to do? Agree with every word that professor x says and keep pumping him up like you do??? Get some backbone and stand on your own two feet. The problem I see at gym’s is that everyone just asks the biggest guy in the gym how he trains and thinks that if they do the same thing then they will get just as big. Ain’t going to happen.[/quote]
That’s because they ask him: “hey, what are you doing there”, and not "what have you been doing for the last 10 years?
If they were to ACTUALLY DO what the biggest guy in the gym did for the last 10 years, how could they not get big? How can someone eat like there is no tomorrow for 10 years and lift progressivly heavier weights and not get big?(Barring serious injury)
How far has your own opinion, which I take it has been gleaned from anywhere BUT the big guys, gotten you?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I cannot believe this troll is tolerated, and that people are actually conversing with him as if based on his posts that were thankfully removed he deserves any respect.[/quote]
I didn’t see those posts, but anyone can see by his screen name that it’s a troll. Probably HH, it seems in line with the rest of his personalities.
Sento is probably aware, but as long as he gets to make his (good) point, what’s the difference who asked the question.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I have considered all the angles
I guess it wouldn’t be a problem if I felt that training every muscle group directly only once a week was the most effective way of training. So the push/pull/lower split wouldn’t cut it with me done 3x/week. Relatively speaking, I get my best gains hitting muscle groups twice every 5 or 6 days (as long as fatigue isn’t too high). So all that stuff about overlap and going overtime is mainly based on that.
[/quote]
Cool. Again, I’m not trying to convince you to train 3x per week. Just pointing out that such programs don’t necessarily have all that much overlap. Even a Push/Pull split done on a ABA (which would be about the frequency that you’re talking about) schedule wouldn’t have much overlap if you were smart with your exercise selection.
It’s highly publicized that’s true, but if you look at the studies that are often referenced, they’re poorly designed and really not very definitive.
I’m not arguing that the more often you are able to train a muscle and recover/repair/improve from that stimulus the faster your results are gonna be. Just that, depending on the intensity of the program (which you somewhat addressed), volume, aggressiveness of your strength progression, etc… more or less recovery may be called for.
As far as the appetite eating goes, yeah, training does stimulate appetite, but it also eats up calories. So you wind up having to eat more calories to continue to stay in a caloric surplus. For some people that might not be a problem, for others it might be. Again, depends on the individual.
[quote]
As regards muscle imbalances, that all depends on how many exercises you can do efficiently each workout without a trade off. If you want to cover every muscle like the often neglected calves, forearms, hamstrings, upper chest, delts etc…then you’re talking about 8+ different exercises per workout (if only doing 3 times/week). I don’t know about anyone else, but I preffer to do around 3 compound movements and a small hand full of “small” ones (per workout) - this enables me to “give it my all” and I progress better.[/quote]
Again, it depends on how you set up your program. The push/pull/legs split that I mentioned could have you doing the following for example on Push day:
That throws in some pre-exhaust for the chest (in case your chest was lagging), hits the upper pecs, hits the anterior and medial delt heads, and hits the lateral, medial, and long heads of the triceps in 7 exercises (which really could be done in close to the same time as 6 if you supersetted the cross-overs and DB flat bench).
Again, just an example.
Or, you could rotate exercises (much like the DC 2 way split) and just do a different exercise for each body part each time you did that workout.
So, for a “Pull” day you could do:
Wed:
-Incline DB curls
-Pinwheel curls
-Lying leg curls
-Rack chins
-Rack Deads
Mon:
-Standing EZ curls
-1 arm reverse cable curls
-Romanian deadlift
-chin-ups/pull-ups
-T-bar rows
Friday:
-1 arm DB Preacher curls
-BB wrist curls
-Seated Leg curls
-HS pull-over
-Face pulls
Again, not trying to convert you. Just pointing out that it can be done.[/quote]
Thanks for the response. I understand you aren’t trying to convert me lol, I’m also just replying why I feel the way I do. I do like the push pull type split, which is why I’ll be doing that on the 3 way split (done 4-6 times/week…depending on recovery). I think it’s one of the best ways to minimise overlap (train muscle when they’re more recovered), and spread the load better.
e.g.
Day 1 - Pull
Day 2 - Push
Day 3 - off
Day 4 - Lower + Delts
Day 5 - off
Day 6 - repeat
The other thing I love about the 3 way split (done more than 3 times per week) is the fact that you can take off days whenever you need it without it effecting the routine too much (routine is more flexible). Whereas, with the 3 days per week routine, the days are more rigid and if taking one day off (for whatever reason) it effects the rest of the week and gives a bit too much time between training muscle groups.
I don’t think that splitting up the routine more is necessarilly just for those who are advanced. You mentioned that as you get more advanced, a more split routine, like a two way to a three way is needed to bring up lagging parts etc…but on my stated example routine, you can train muscle groups just as frequently (if not more), and the exercises are more spread out compared to the 3x/week routine (if you wanted to train muscle groups as frequently as I’ve mentioned). I think that the 3 way split (done frequently) is superior to a two way done just 3 times a week (i.e. the advancement from 2 way to 3 way isn’t just for advanced individuals).
One thing I never mentioned is the “active recovery” component of training more frequently (unless you do cardio on your off days on a 3x/week frequency).
I do buy into the hormone boosting effects of more frequent training. I have noticed a big difference in how I feel with more frequent training (feel more pumped, energetic, gain weight faster etc…so long as I don’t overdo it). And although more calories are burned during the more frequent exercise, it’s the effects on hormones after the exercise which makes the difference (kind of like HIIT). Gaining more muscle to fat during a bulk is what everyone wants. I’m pretty sure this happens in the real world, not just theory.
One important point to restate is the fact that it’s not necessarilly much more volume, it moreso spread out. So on the days where you would normally have a rest, you are getting the hormone boosting effects again if you trained (this is brief training, compared to 3x/week). Even if it was just a boost in metabolism, that’s still superior to no boost on what would normally be a rest day.
[quote]knee-gro wrote:
His example of a push/pull/legs is a good one, that and an upper/lower done on an ABA schedualle will have less overlap than some 5 way splits.
[/quote]
I thought he meant overlap within the session (i.e. chest+delts+tris = something is likely going to suffer, though exercise selection etc can help to some degree and this kind of thing is easier to pull off with a low-volume approach or when doing things the way CT has been talking about lately…).
its_just_me I’m in the process of writing a new program entirely for you.
It will feature 7-days-a-week training, 6 sessions per day, full body each session with 5 exercises per muscle-group and very high volume per exercise.
You will grow better on it than on your current routine because it will make it impossible for you to spend time discussing stuff completely irrelevant to your level of training experience in intricate detail for 12 hours a day.
Your strength will double on everything within a week simply because your Nervous System will no longer be constantly fried from trying to cope with the pseudo-intellectual overkill here…
So… What do you say? Wouldn’t you like to finally be able to move past the pink dumbbell on kroc rows?
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
its_just_me I’m in the process of writing a new program entirely for you.
It will feature 7-days-a-week training, 6 sessions per day, full body each session with 5 exercises per muscle-group and very high volume per exercise.
You will grow better on it than on your current routine because it will make it impossible for you to spend time discussing stuff completely irrelevant to your level of training experience in intricate detail for 12 hours a day.
Your strength will double on everything within a week simply because your Nervous System will no longer be constantly fried from trying to cope with the pseudo-intellectual overkill here…
So… What do you say? Wouldn’t you like to finally be able to move past the pink dumbbell on kroc rows?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I cannot believe this troll is tolerated, and that people are actually conversing with him as if based on his posts that were thankfully removed he deserves any respect.[/quote]
Maybe because he has formed his own opinion on how to train. What do you want him to do? Agree with every word that professor x says and keep pumping him up like you do??? Get some backbone and stand on your own two feet. The problem I see at gym’s is that everyone just asks the biggest guy in the gym how he trains and thinks that if they do the same thing then they will get just as big. Ain’t going to happen.[/quote]
Ahhh, you really just don’t get it do you…
But thanks for letting me know I can ignore your posts as well as the racist’s posts, who you are defending.
Good job buddy.
And nice fake e-stats dude, you should be on stage at those numbers, winning shows.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
its_just_me I’m in the process of writing a new program entirely for you.
It will feature 7-days-a-week training, 6 sessions per day, full body each session with 5 exercises per muscle-group and very high volume per exercise.
You will grow better on it than on your current routine because it will make it impossible for you to spend time discussing stuff completely irrelevant to your level of training experience in intricate detail for 12 hours a day.
Your strength will double on everything within a week simply because your Nervous System will no longer be constantly fried from trying to cope with the pseudo-intellectual overkill here…
So… What do you say? Wouldn’t you like to finally be able to move past the pink dumbbell on kroc rows?
