How Useful is Pre-Exhaust Training?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

Do any serious bodybuilders use pre-exhaust training successfully and for what purpose? The way I see it, if the target muscle is fatigued you will lift less weight, that means less overload and less of the stimulation needed to achieve maximal size and strength. If you aren’t training for endurance why would anyone pre-exhaust a muscle?

Some trainers say to help them ‘feel’ the muscle, others just like a good pump from an isolation exercise that allows you to lift a very minimal amount of weight. Is there any other reason apart from, increasing the nervous system’s ability to recruit the muscle more efficiently since you are using it more? (Which is a point you can argue for any type of training)…

2

This is one of those training methods I never feel “advanced” enough to use, even after lifting more than 10 years. Maybe it works. I don’t know.

I agree with what you said in your first paragraph,I just feel like lifting heavier or doing a certain weight more times would be more beneficial.

3

I’ve always felt that if you know how to make use of it, it is an invaluable approach in targeting an area that may just seem stubborn, or that you’re biomechanically inclined to have difficulties with.

My delts and tris have always been very dominant, as such I’ve incorporated pre-exhaust methods in my training over the years to bring up my medial delts, and chest while working around the stronger front delt and tricep muscles. Yes, utilizing heaveir weights is a good thing, but if the target muscle group is not receiving the brunt of the stimulation, then as a ‘bodybuilder’, you will be missing out.

S

4

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I’ve always felt that if you know how to make use of it, it is an invaluable approach in targeting an area that may just seem stubborn, or that you’re biomechanically inclined to have difficulties with. My delts and tris have always been very dominant, as such I’ve incorporated pre-exhaust methods in my training over the years to bring up my medial delts, and chest while working around the stronger front delt and tricep muscles. Yes, utilizing heaveir weights is a good thing, but if the target muscle group is not receiving the brunt of the stimulation, then as a ‘bodybuilder’, you will be missing out.

S[/quote]

what sort of pre-exhaust work did you do with your medial delts? Side raises before your presses? and with your chest training didn’t you feel once the chest was pre-exhausted that you were limiting the amount of work you could put into it and for lack of a better word ‘wasted’ energy on the smaller movement?

i have tried pre-exhausting a bunch of muscle groups and shoulders have worked the best for me. maybe because it was for a different part of the shoulder muscle as opposed to an actual muscle group, if that makes sense. (Side delt> Press which exhausts one part of the shoulder- not Pec fly> Press, which exhausts the chest, an entire muscle group). I found an article CT wrote on having a smaller torso and bigger limbs which applies to me. I tried pre-exhausting my lats with straight arm pulldowns followed by pullups and I felt a good pump in my lats. however I don’t think the results were nearly as good as progressively overloading the body with heavier pullups.

In the recent dr clay article he mentioned doing inclines flies supersetted with Incline presses and it got me thinking… has anyone had success with this type of training? you don’t hear about it very much even though it was very popular with the big boys in the past… how did your chest training work out when you were using this method stu?

5

[quote]thrasher_09 wrote:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I’ve always felt that if you know how to make use of it, it is an invaluable approach in targeting an area that may just seem stubborn, or that you’re biomechanically inclined to have difficulties with. My delts and tris have always been very dominant, as such I’ve incorporated pre-exhaust methods in my training over the years to bring up my medial delts, and chest while working around the stronger front delt and tricep muscles. Yes, utilizing heaveir weights is a good thing, but if the target muscle group is not receiving the brunt of the stimulation, then as a ‘bodybuilder’, you will be missing out.

S[/quote]

what sort of pre-exhaust work did you do with your medial delts? Side raises before your presses? and with your chest training didn’t you feel once the chest was pre-exhausted that you were limiting the amount of work you could put into it and for lack of a better word ‘wasted’ energy on the smaller movement?

i have tried pre-exhausting a bunch of muscle groups and shoulders have worked the best for me. maybe because it was for a different part of the shoulder muscle as opposed to an actual muscle group, if that makes sense. (Side delt> Press which exhausts one part of the shoulder- not Pec fly> Press, which exhausts the chest, an entire muscle group). I found an article CT wrote on having a smaller torso and bigger limbs which applies to me. I tried pre-exhausting my lats with straight arm pulldowns followed by pullups and I felt a good pump in my lats. however I don’t think the results were nearly as good as progressively overloading the body with heavier pullups.

In the recent dr clay article he mentioned doing inclines flies supersetted with Incline presses and it got me thinking… has anyone had success with this type of training? you don’t hear about it very much even though it was very popular with the big boys in the past… how did your chest training work out when you were using this method stu?[/quote]

Just on the topic of the incline flyes to incline press… for a long time I had a none existent chest but overdeveloped delts. I’m also 6’3 with long ass arms, and was having problems feeling my chest work. I began using the flyes to presses pre exhaust and saw appreciable results within 6 months. I’m now back to doing an upper lower split and only use barbell and db presses for chest and am seeing continued development in my chest. So for me they were definitely worth it, I now feel my chest being worked on presses alone, and gaining size two things I couldn’t do prior.
On the flip side straight arm lat pulldowns pre exhaust didn’t do jack for my back so maybe it’s all in the individual.

6

It was one of the best tools I ever used to bring up my pecs and hams.

Does anyone serious use this? Yeah, a very serious man; his name is Dorian Yates.

7

[quote]thrasher_09 wrote:
Do any serious bodybuilders use pre-exhaust training successfully and for what purpose? The way I see it, if the target muscle is fatigued you will lift less weight, that means less overload and less of the stimulation needed to achieve maximal size and strength. If you aren’t training for endurance why would anyone pre-exhaust a muscle?

Some trainers say to help them ‘feel’ the muscle, others just like a good pump from an isolation exercise that allows you to lift a very minimal amount of weight. Is there any other reason apart from, increasing the nervous system’s ability to recruit the muscle more efficiently since you are using it more? (Which is a point you can argue for any type of training)…[/quote]

First off, pre-exhaust is NOT a method used for maximal strength! Besides, bodybuilders aren’t concerned first and foremost with maximal strength; that’s for powerlifters.

Bodybuilders are concerned with maximal size - which is gained by getting stronger in the lifts they do.

If you’re interested in maximal strength, take on powerlifting, because you’re never gonna be as strong as you can be on a bodybuilding program.

(This is where others will chime in and say, “But… but… you can be strong and big at the same time. Whatcha talkin’ about you can’t be strong being a bodybuilder?”

That’s NOT what I’m saying. I said, “Strong as you can be.”

It is not just a matter of a pump! In so many cases, even in this thread, people do not get well-developed pecs by doing the standard workout starting with flat barbell bench presses, and the fact that you’re talking about this shows that you don’t know that.

Many people are arms-dominant and DON’T have barrel-like torsos a la Arnold, Franco Columbu, Ronnie Coleman, Ryan Kennelly, and Bill Kazmier - all guys who get a pump in their chest from warming up with 135.

The purpose of pre-exhaust is to create intramuscular pressure and innervation in a muscle so that when a compound exercise is performed after an isolation one, there’s more activation in that muscle.

Then goes the played-out thought and question, “But I think that it can hurt your performance in the big lifts and it doesn’t make sense to me.” I say, “Keep thinking.”

I ask you people then:

  1. Who the hell says that because you perform an isolation exercise FIRST in a workout for a muscle that you don’t see to break PRs in that exercise at nearly all workouts?
  2. Who the hell says that you don’t see to break PRs in the compound exercise you perform after?

True, if you do flies before bench, your bench will be lighter than than had you performed it first? BUT WHO SAID YOU DON’T SEEK TO IMPROVE BOTH EXERCISES FROM WORKOUT TO WORKOUT, WHETHER YOU’RE PERFORMING PRE-EXHAUST OR NOT?!

Why don’t you watch Blood and Guts to see that Dorian Yates - a “serious” dude - does leg extensions before leg presses, leg curls before stiff-legged deadlifts, pullovers before lat pulldowns, and incline curls before barbell curls? See if he’s just pulling out all the stops and just coasting through the rest of his workouts after all those isolation exercises.

8

[quote]Nards wrote:
This is one of those training methods I never feel “advanced” enough to use, even after lifting more than 10 years. Maybe it works. I don’t know.

I agree with what you said in your first paragraph,I just feel like lifting heavier or doing a certain weight more times would be more beneficial. [/quote]

What does performing more reps in an exercise have to do with this? If someone performs bench presses and decide to do 15 reps rather than 6 to 8 reps, will this compensate for long arms and a small rib cage or the dominance of some muscle groups over others?

9

It is the single best thing I’ve done for my quads and pecs.

Search the Tcel for the thread on it.

10

Trevor Smith used pre-exhaust for EVERY muscle group, and he sure wasn’t coasting through isolation OR compound exercises, regardless of where in the workout they were performed.

11

You gotta mix things up to see how they work for you. I tend to do my compound movements first in a workout, but I will also do isolation exercises first if I reach a sticking point in my compound lifts. Case in point today- been struggling with my bench for a while, so I went and did cable crossovers first today and managed to beat my bench by 10kg.

12

And, to top that, managed to beat my cable crossovers into the bargain.

13

Damn Brick, you didn’t leave anything for me to answer(rant?!) about here! -lol

People need to not always focus on how much weight they lift. Yes, as you get stronger, you will undoubtedly get larger (barring simple neurological adaptations of course), but the body is designed to work as a unit, and bodybuilding is about developing things evenly. The problem lies in that everyone has slightly different strengths and weakness, and sometimes the heavy, basic compound movements will not cause the incorporated body parts to develop at an even pace… hence various methods of isolation and specialization.

S

14

[quote]Beara33 wrote:

Just on the topic of the incline flyes to incline press… for a long time I had a none existent chest but overdeveloped delts. I’m also 6’3 with long ass arms, and was having problems feeling my chest work. I began using the flyes to presses pre exhaust and saw appreciable results within 6 months. [/quote]

this. exactly. (except i aint 6’3" and have short arms).

i am a total rookie, and not lifting heavy yet at all, and i have made the best progress with my chest so far, after reading something brick wrote about pre-exhaust months ago.

one of the best tools i have used so far, so i dont think you have to be advanced to use it at all. but i learned from these guys so, OP, listen to them.

15

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
Damn Brick, you didn’t leave anything for me to answer(rant?!) about here! -lol

People need to not always focus on how much weight they lift. Yes, as you get stronger, you will undoubtedly get larger (barring simple neurological adaptations of course), but the body is designed to work as a unit, and bodybuilding is about developing things evenly. The problem lies in that everyone has slightly different strengths and weakness, and sometimes the heavy, basic compound movements will not cause the incorporated body parts to develop at an even pace… hence various methods of isolation and specialization.

S[/quote]

Sorry dude. :frowning:

16

thanks for the posts. I might try using them for my chest and see how it works out. I am a natural and sometimes I just think these methods are used by blokes on gear, who can get great results with any training program if they put the effort in.

Brick, I understand that maximal weights lifted aren’t the primary goal, only one possible way of increasing size, but for a natural gym rat I think more of an anabolic release comes from increasing on compounds and not lifting lighter weight on two different exercises completed in a pre-exhaust fashion. Yes you can increase in weight with these exercises, though the increases most of the time are a lot smaller than if you concentrated on a compound because more muscle groups are being used.

I understand the argument of “creating intramuscular pressure and innervation” which is basically saying that you are using a muscle. It can be argued for any training method that this is the case but whether it is a more effective training tool because of this reason, who knows…

17

[quote]thrasher_09 wrote:
thanks for the posts. I might try using them for my chest and see how it works out. I am a natural and sometimes I just think these methods are used by blokes on gear, who can get great results with any training program if they put the effort in.

Brick, I understand that maximal weights lifted aren’t the primary goal, only one possible way of increasing size, but for a natural gym rat I think more of an anabolic release comes from increasing on compounds and not lifting lighter weight on two different exercises completed in a pre-exhaust fashion. Yes you can increase in weight with these exercises, though the increases most of the time are a lot smaller than if you concentrated on a compound because more muscle groups are being used.

I understand the argument of “creating intramuscular pressure and innervation” which is basically saying that you are using a muscle. It can be argued for any training method that this is the case but whether it is a more effective training tool because of this reason, who knows…[/quote]

What a surprise. You just parroted back - almost verbatim - what I thought you’d say and what I hear people constantly saying about pre-exhaust. I hope you read my post in which I addressed this.

I’m a natural lifter myself who had awesome gains with pre-exhaust. And your view on roid use is flawed, because a method doesn’t just all of the sudden work so great because someone uses drugs. Drugs ENHANCE the effect someone would get without them, provided they know how to train and eat.

What is an anabolic release? If you’re referring to GH and T releases during exercises, those are TRANSIENT and NEGLIGIBLE.

You wrote, “I think…” twice.

Have fun thinking.

18

[quote]thrasher_09 wrote:
thanks for the posts. I might try using them for my chest and see how it works out. I am a natural and sometimes I just think these methods are used by blokes on gear, who can get great results with any training program if they put the effort in.

Brick, I understand that maximal weights lifted aren’t the primary goal, only one possible way of increasing size, but for a natural gym rat I think more of an anabolic release comes from increasing on compounds and not lifting lighter weight on two different exercises completed in a pre-exhaust fashion. Yes you can increase in weight with these exercises, though the increases most of the time are a lot smaller than if you concentrated on a compound because more muscle groups are being used.

I understand the argument of “creating intramuscular pressure and innervation” which is basically saying that you are using a muscle. It can be argued for any training method that this is the case but whether it is a more effective training tool because of this reason, who knows…[/quote]

So what are your thoughts on raising orphaned emperor penguins since you so much enjoy talking about things you dont know much about?

19

How about you go try it for a couple weeks then report back in.

20

Another guy who wanted to strike up a conversation for conversation’s sake, get a bunch of intelligent replies from knowledgeable and intelligent people, and then DISREGARD what all these intelligent people had to say.

You’re welcome - INGRATE.