'How to Train' Questions

Training
101

[quote]3rdegreebyrne wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:

In addition to this with good technique, you rarely need to be operating at more than say 20% to make a technique work properly, or to “cruise” through certain movements (BECAUSE YOUR TECHNIQUE IS EFFICIENT ENOUGH) and only go BANG 100% at the moments you choose.

Your ‘gas tank’ will be full because you never expend more energy than you need to. But if for instance you need to push hard to win a round or something you have a vast reservoir to tap into.

Just re-read this and would like to add, from my boxing experience. I know a lot of extremely fit guys who I’ve gotten in the ring with, but were new to the sport and even though our conditioning was comparable they gassed out way before me. Here’s why - if you look at a beginner in boxing when he puts his hands up, its like hes constantly holding the middle portion of a shrug. His movements are choppy, his foot placement is awkward, he lacks fluidity.

When fighting someone with experience you can see his shoulders are relaxed, his punches crisp (hes not trying to punch through you, or push you away with his punches) he doesn’t utilize a lot of extra movement, and his footwork is very efficient. He could smoke a pack a day and still not gas before you because he’s hardly expending any energy. Plus it’s so disconcerting when your going all out, and the dude your fighting is breathing like he’s sitting by the pool and moving around you like a flamingo dancer. Finally when your gassed and frustrated, he throws that 100% super sayin type shit and your running for cover ready to throw in the towel. In conclusion technique before much of anything else.[/quote]

100% agree dude. Thats why I talk to people (one tonight actually) who say things like “man i can’t keep my hands up I need to do more shrugs”. Uh… Maybe you just need to do more bagwork. “man my legs get tired shooting for a double, I need to do more squats”. Or you could…you know, shoot more doubles.

One of the guys I train with is a (former? i think) WBC muay thai champ. He’s fought in japan, etc, etc, been fighting for years. He moves like he’s ice skating. I mean literally just shadowboxing or not even throwing anything just working his footwork he’s so smooth i swear I’m not sure if he’s lifting his feet or just gliding around. And he’s BARELY winded after shadowboxing. His movements are so efficent that he’s not using much energy.

THAT is what seperates a FIGHTER from a BRAWLER. The bullrush technique only works for so long. If you can weather the onslaught you can destroy a guy like that easy after 30-40seconds. Even Wanderlei Silva, mr. fucking intensity if you watch him he’s pretty damn relaxed until he ups the intensity to 100 and smashes then he goes back to cruise control.

Fighting isn’t football. you don’t run a play and get a rest. tabata protocal won’t work. Great to get in shape but honestly there’s NO REST. The efficient fighters can bounce from 100 to 20 to 80 to 10.

Like you said about a pack a day… Sakuraba used to smoke like 3-4 packs a day lol. He’s notorious for not doing shit except sparring and stuff for cardio but I can’t recall ever seeing him really gassed. But on the flipside he’s absurdly relaxed in fights, its like the chaos actually CALMS him down. Like in someone’s avatar, he has a kimura on royce and looks over to the camera and smiles.

You see guys new to fighting and they’re 100% laser focus the entire time. Which isn’t bad, i mean be in the moment, but don’t be fucking frantic.

Thats why the NUMBER ONE THING you will hear most coaches tell a beginner in muay thai, boxing, bjj, wrestling, whatever is R-E-L-A-X… RELAX.

Burn yourself out when you’re conditioning but when you’re training your technique you want to use your energy as efficiently as possible.

That wild swinging haymaker takes more energy than a straight punch and it travels a longer distance. Use the straight right you’ll save energy for later. Etc etc

102

i think chenzen’s main point was this:

Do like bruce lee imo, take some of ferrugia’s ideas play with them, if they work for you use them if they don’t. Put them aside, look at them later and try it again maybe you just need to be in a different place to make them work.

103

I totally see where Chenzen is coming from, but for those of u who do not have the benefit of experience all we can do is look at what other people say and try and make it work for us.

104

[quote]3rdegreebyrne wrote:
ChenZen wrote:
From RossTraining…"In the past few years, I?ve noticed a common theme emerging amongst many athletes and exercise enthusiasts. Day after day, more and more people seem to believe that they must follow a specific system EXACTLY as it is presented. Perhaps it is something they find in a book, DVD, website, or a combination of each. These people become so dedicated to a single training system that it isn?t uncommon for them to spend hours and hours defending their ?way? of training.

Never before have I seen so many people care so much about what someone else wants to do with his or her time. There have been some truly epic (and nasty) discussions on even my own message board, where different folks spend all day arguing over different strokes.

I believe it was Mark Twain who said there is more than one way to skin a cat (meaning there is more than one way to get what you want).

Twain was clearly a wise man, yet why is it so difficult for some people to abide by his simple advice? Does it really bother you to see someone do things differently than you? Why spend so much time worrying about what or why someone else chooses to do what they want to do? Did it ever cross your mind that different people have different interests and opinions?

Fans of the old Dirty Harry (Clint Eastwood) movies will appreciate his quote below.

?Opinions are like assholes, everyone has got one? -Dirty Harry

Does anyone ever really win an online debate? How are online debates scored? Does the force with which you bang on your keyboard equate to effective aggressiveness? Does post count on a message board account for extra points on the scorecards? Or perhaps the number of 3+ syllable words included in a single response? Are style points added up for effective sarcasm?

Give me a break! I know WORLD champion fighters who couldn?t tell you the difference between periodization and a quadricep. They couldn?t win an online debate with an orangutan, but they could kick the asses of most who are much craftier behind the keyboard. They have better things to do than argue with someone who trains differently. Their sole concern is improving their own ability, using those methods that work best for them specifically (News Flash: what works for one may not work for another).

So, the next time you feel inclined to slug it out with your keyboard, why not simply worry more about yourself instead? Why not focus on REAL results in the competitive arena with real (not make believe) athletes?

When I?m working with a fighter, the only competitors that we are concerned with are those standing across the ring from us in the opposing corner. The athletes don?t bang it out on a message board. They don?t have time for such nonsense. Their fights are packed with real punches, real blood, and real pain."

Exactly who were you responding too? Intelligent debate can cause epiphany and increase ones own understanding of what they do or do not know. This thread hasn’t got nearly as heated as I’ve seen other ones get, and I personally believe most of the discussion was pretty intelligent. I understand and agree with you - however I’m not quite sure how it’s relevant. Most the posts were anecdotal in nature anyway - people sharing their experiences.

Are you suggesting that people shouldn’t discuss training philosophy here? Cause that’s kinda the point of this thread isn’t it?[/quote]

Sorry guys about the randomness of the post and i wasn’t responding to anyone. I think intelligent discussion about training is what keeps the Combat forum alive and that’s why i come here, but as most of us know intelligent training discussion can easily turn into pages of garbage arguing over methodology but in hindsight i should have explained myself a bit as that wasn’t exactly the case here.

105

[quote]ChenZen wrote:

Sorry guys about the randomness of the post and i wasn’t responding to anyone. I think intelligent discussion about training is what keeps the Combat forum alive and that’s why i come here, but as most of us know intelligent training discussion can easily turn into pages of garbage arguing over methodology but in hindsight i should have explained myself a bit as that wasn’t exactly the case here.
[/quote]

Ok, that clears it up. I thought you might have been suggesting people on this thread were doing that - including me, which I thought was untrue. I actually agree with 100%.

On a side note, I hope to be back training sometime next month. I think I have posted this somewhere before - but I have had terrible trigger point problems all over my back, hips, and quads. Making it impossible to have that fluidity so coveted by many - since my muscles were constantly contracting. I actually fought like that, believe it or not.

Anyway I’ve been making break throughs lately and I CAN’T Wait to get back to the heavy bag. It’s amazing how much you can do with a little foos ball and lots of free time. I’m sure I’ll have way more to share once I am actually in the gym again. /personal anecdote, thread hijack

106

Another “How to Train” question- is jumping rope a useful tool for conditioning grapplers, or is it better left for MMA/boxing training?

EDIT: I’m economising, to afford more classes I need to get rid of my gym membership (see, I listen, more technique less weightlifting!). At home I have dumbells and a chin dip station, as well as an old leather medicine ball. Is this enough for a wannabe grappler?

107

[quote]Roundhead wrote:
Another “How to Train” question- is jumping rope a useful tool for conditioning grapplers, or is it better left for MMA/boxing training?

EDIT: I’m economising, to afford more classes I need to get rid of my gym membership (see, I listen, more technique less weightlifting!). At home I have dumbells and a chin dip station, as well as an old leather medicine ball. Is this enough for a wannabe grappler?[/quote]

Lets put it this way, a jump rope couldn’t hurt you. I personally love them - and even though I am no grappler myself, boxer/kickboxer, and a few of the guys I wrestled with swore by them. There cheap, and better cardio than running in my opinion.

In thailand they had me jump rope for 30 minutes straight everyday - thats a little overkill in my opinion but incorporating bursts, double unders, and coordination drills with them would probably help you.

I’d use your dumbells to do circuit training with - best form of combat conditioning I’ve come across. Mix it up with them too, heres a circuit I used to do.

One-Legged Pushups -15 one side (when you repeat you do other side)
Man-Makers(renegade row) -1:00, or for reps you can switch it up
Burpee’s holding dumbells - 15
Single Leg Deadlift w/db - 15 one side, other side when you repeat
Jump Lunges (w/ or w/o weight) - 10 ea side.
Start with 2 rounds and increase rounds, or decrease time it takes you to do it.

Killer for conditioning. Takes like aprox 15 minutes to complete - great if your in a crunch for time. Sometimes we would switch out burpess for 50 double unders,man makers for medicine ball slams, jump lunges with walking lunges, or swiss ball pushups for one-legged pushups.

A pretty basic GPP template - but in all reality thats all you’ll need for a long time. Just playing around with reps, rounds, intensity, and a limited number of exercise variations gives you everything you’ll need.

108

Can you develop enough lower body strength using this sort of training? I suppose pistols are the way to go right?

109

Dude, try walking the day after doing 15 burpees with db’s and 20 regular or weighted jump lunges. Combine that with single leg deadlifts - your ass will be so sore you’ll think Bubba broke out of prison and gave it to you last night. Also one-legged pushups require an isometric hold in the legs. Trust me you hit your legs plenty in the above.

Obviously it won’t build ME strength in your legs - but thats not what it’s designed for anyway (been over this already I think). It’ll blast your cardio through the rough and develope lactic thresholds to no end however. But ya pistols never hurt.

110

Yeah I see what you’re saying, the reason I brought up pistols is its the only ME exercise I can think of for the lower body with the kit I have.

111

Xen, I agree with a lot of what you are writing.

Mauricio, (Roger Gracie’s Dad, Rolls Gracie Blackbelt and for me one of the best BJJ instructers in the world,) has said to me on more than one occasion that weak guys will pick up the basics of jiujitsu way quicker than strong guys because they have to get the technique right to have the effect.

That said, I have to take issue with a couple of points that you are making.

Yes a beginner should 100% be focussing on technique over strength training, however by the time we are getting to serious training max strength will become a factor.

I am a purple belt and have recently started lifting again after 12 months not training any specific strength. I am really working over guys that I used to have some issues with so the added max strength has had a real benefit.

When you say that Marcelinho is not that strong, I think you would be amazed if you got on the mat with him. Most of the top BJJ and MMA guys that I have trained with use the basic lifts (Bench, Squat, Dead) and quite often Oly lifts (or the power versions) as part of their training.

Roger might have an amazing level of technique but that is coupled with freaky natural strength just ask Drysdale about having his brand new gi sleave ripped in half at last years Mundials.

The final thing that I have to take issue with is your claim that Tabata intervals do not help for Combat Sports. You claim that there is no rest in a round of MMA or boxing, which is plainly absurd.

You are not going 100% bell to bell, you are working flurries of strikes, sweep or sub atempts with active recovery (circling, clinching, jabing) inbetween. This is exactly the energy pattern that you will be using on a versaclimber tabata for instance.

112

[quote]Roundhead wrote:
Yeah I see what you’re saying, the reason I brought up pistols is its the only ME exercise I can think of for the lower body with the kit I have.[/quote]

And by all means do them, they’re absolutely great. It may be difficult top get all that in and still have left over for ME, if your training and doing conditioning all in one week. It’s easy to over train in the beginning.

113

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

When you say that Marcelinho is not that strong, I think you would be amazed if you got on the mat with him. Most of the top BJJ and MMA guys that I have trained with use the basic lifts (Bench, Squat, Dead) and quite often Oly lifts (or the power versions) as part of their training.

Roger might have an amazing level of technique but that is coupled with freaky natural strength just ask Drysdale about having his brand new gi sleave ripped in half at last years Mundials.

The final thing that I have to take issue with is your claim that Tabata intervals do not help for Combat Sports. You claim that there is no rest in a round of MMA or boxing, which is plainly absurd.

You are not going 100% bell to bell, you are working flurries of strikes, sweep or sub atempts with active recovery (circling, clinching, jabing) inbetween. This is exactly the energy pattern that you will be using on a versaclimber tabata for instance.

[/quote]

What I meant Marcelo and Roger not being “strong” is that like BJ Penn, they won’t put up amazing fucking powerlifting #'s.
They are strong where it counts though. Like I think I mentioned here (maybe elsewhere) guy might be 150lbs but will use their weight to feel like you’re rolling with Brock.

The Tabata thing I mean this… watch a crossfit vid for instance… and you see people doing tabata protocal 20s work and complete rest 10s… if you want to be more realistic for a fight you never go from 10 to 0, you go from 10 to maybe 5 but you’re never going to be at 0. (if you understand what I’m saying) which is why i think distance running is very beneficial or at least medium distance (20-30min run). It teaches you to work for time under that 40-50% pace. So you learn to manage stress and perform at that level. When maintaining that is easy training yourself to hit the 100 peaks is ok.

Fighting isn’t 100% all the time, it shouldn’t be, you should be efficient enough to not HAVE to go 100% all the time. But while fighting isn’t 100% all the time you’re not resting either. Even if you’re just circling the guy, you’re under stress for one and secondly you’re still moving at the very least you’re operating at 20% and thats even if your lay n pray’ing. Even what you described is active rest. I agree with active rest but 20s. fast on a versaclimber, 10s stop? no no more like 20s fast, 10s keep moving…

114

I think you would be suprised at how many of the top guys do lift and at the numbers they put up (most of the guys who ‘I never lift weights’ in iterviews are lieing.)

As for the Tabata thing, I was mistaken, I thought standard Tabata protocol called for active rest, not complete rest. I would always use active rest between work sets on Tabatas. Check out Taku Intervals for a pretty good progression scheme.

115

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Check out Taco Intervals for a pretty good progression scheme.[/quote]

Can they be performed with burritos?

116

[quote]3rdegreebyrne wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Check out Taco Intervals for a pretty good progression scheme.

Can they be performed with burritos?[/quote]

Bearing in mind my location, am I alowed to call racism on that post :wink:

117

I’m pretty familiar with Taku, he and I messaged back and forth a while years ago (shit I was still in high school). He influenced a lot of what I considered for conditioning.

And yes I’d totally agree that most of those guys who say they don’t lift are lying. Or they DID lift and by saying they “don’t” anymore they mean not like they used to.

118

Taku is a top bloke (though I have cursed his name before now as I collapsed off a versaclimber.)

It’s almost like a badge of honor thing with some guys that they like to claim that they are huge and muscly without actually lifting weights. Odd.

119

Yea, they believe its a testament to their genetics i assume.

120

By what percentage would the dialogue improve if no one who had never had at least one MMA fight could comment?

All this bullshit about optimal strength, why no one should do any longer runs, etc. would be flushed down the toilet.

Most don’t realize that the guys writing articles have NEVER had even one fight, competed in a single grappling tournament, or even earned a blue belt in BJJ.

Yet people find those with ZERO personal experience reliable. It’s like taking stock advice from a guy who has never invested a dollar in the stock market. And people wonder why the world is going to shit.

People need to consider the source. Guys who actually compete say one thing. Guys who don’t compete and have never competed are saying something else. LOL.