Any advice on whether or not a bodybuilding split can be beneficial to a fighter? I don’t necessarily want to be a fighter but I want to train as a sparring partner with fighters so I need to have the right kind of strength. I’ve done bodybuilding splits most of my lifting time and it’s good for strength in grappling but I’m wondering if anybody has any advice or modifications that should be made for an “aspiring” fighter. Houston Alexander, Marvin Eastman and Quinton Jackson provide some models for bodybuilding splits in MMA, but I’d like to be realistic. In other words, how can I attain GSP’s body?
Thanks a lot, much appreciated. I wasn’t asking for an outlined program from you or anything but rather just some of the main tips you have for fighter weight training. One I heard was to train easy on shoulders, high volume.
still… 100 pages rather than 120…
Do a search here you might find some stuff… but some basic shit so other can chime in.
Manage volume and intensity carefully NO PROGRAM IS EVER PERFECT FOR YOU other than the one you can adjust on the fly. Which imo is the beauty of the conjugate system (Westside/ de-me-re etc). This takes a long time of experimenting and learning your body through lifting and training
technique first. Imo you should train your technique 6-7 days week, then build up your work capacity and see if you can/where/when to fit in training other shit.
Decide what attributes you need to improve and train them GENERALLY
Train the attributes that you are weak at in a general sense
Speed = jump squats, box jumps, reactive drills, olympic lift variations, etc
strength = squat, deadlift, good morning, front squat, etc
improve mobility= stretching, dynamic movement drills, myofascial release, active release, etc
mobility can be trained everyday, speed/strength 1-2x per week. Its best if you decide which is most important and focus on that primarily for a phase then move onto the other. I like training both conjugate style but giving an obvious emphasis to one inparticular so that you dont lose the other attributes
Then just drill the shit out of the actual movement. (SPP)
shadow drill it
drill on actual opponent (just to get the motion w/ a live body)
drill on live opponent (resisting 50%)
drill on live opponent (80%)
drill on live opponent (100%)
drill 100% with faster/lighter guy
drill 100% with heavier/stronger guy
drill in fatigued state (shark bait drill or after conditioning work)
General work = 20-30% of your time.
SPP = 70-80% of your time.
You have ignored this user.
Also…everyone has the I want to be built like ______ and fight like _______ but perform like __________ in 8wks. kind of thing.
No offense bro.
dude pick a goal. Do you want to be a better fighter? Then ask me something specific that you need to work on and improve. I post here all the time, and I’ll give you fucking free info that will put your over the edge. Just cause im fucking nice.
Do you want to look like GSP? dude most people just need to put on 10lbs of muscle just training upper body then train like a triathlete and they’ll look like GSP he’s not that daunting lol.
Do you want to actually look like an intimidating motherfucker? Talk to Christian Thibaudeau or Dante of DoggCrapp Training. And put your EVERYTHING into that. Don’t be “brad pitt in fightclub”… be fucking “The incredible hulk”
Do you want to put up SICK gym #'s? Then you probably need to talk to Dave Tate and the boys at elitefts. Look at the powerlifting top 100 or top 20 and decide that you WILL break into their ranks.
But (again no offense meant) I wouldn’t train you. Why waste my time. Your GOAL is to be mediocre. You want to be a good training partner…?
The best training partners are someone their level and you won’t BE THEIR LEVEL unless you have the same mindset, much less the physical attributes that are acquired damn near immediately upon wanting to be the best.
Fighters fight other fighters, not training partners.
If you told me you would make a good training partner for me first thing i’d do is ask your credentials and who you fought.
not go
“Damn you look like GSP!”
That GSP body is as a result of him busting his asssssssssss day in and day out with superior genetics and unparalleled commitment to his sport.
I sincerely doubt he had a biceps day.
(not that there is ANYTHING wrong with that)
Not trying to be a dick… but having half assed mediocre goals is not the way to be like GSP in anyway.
Change your mindset, change your world.
anyway in the end, strength is strength is strength. what’s going to matter is how you transfer that to your sport.
Imo if you’re continually improving your strength on the hammer strength incline press it wont be THAT much different than improving on the actual barbell incline when transfering to your sport.
sure you might have better stability, hypertrophy, grip, blah blah with a barbell… but did you get stronger? Was that something you actually needed to improve? Did you spend enough time training your technique that you were able to utilize this newfound strength in a way that actually mattered in the arena?
you meet that criteria i dont care if you put 10lbs on your tricep kickbacks if it made you hit harder.
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
Also…everyone has the I want to be built like ______ and fight like _______ but perform like __________ in 8wks. kind of thing.
No offense bro.
dude pick a goal. Do you want to be a better fighter? Then ask me something specific that you need to work on and improve. I post here all the time, and I’ll give you fucking free info that will put your over the edge. Just cause im fucking nice.
Do you want to look like GSP? dude most people just need to put on 10lbs of muscle just training upper body then train like a triathlete and they’ll look like GSP he’s not that daunting lol.
Do you want to actually look like an intimidating motherfucker? Talk to Christian Thibaudeau or Dante of DoggCrapp Training. And put your EVERYTHING into that. Don’t be “brad pitt in fightclub”… be fucking “The incredible hulk”
Do you want to put up SICK gym #'s? Then you probably need to talk to Dave Tate and the boys at elitefts. Look at the powerlifting top 100 or top 20 and decide that you WILL break into their ranks.
But (again no offense meant) I wouldn’t train you. Why waste my time. Your GOAL is to be mediocre. You want to be a good training partner…?
The best training partners are someone their level and you won’t BE THEIR LEVEL unless you have the same mindset, much less the physical attributes that are acquired damn near immediately upon wanting to be the best.
Fighters fight other fighters, not training partners.
If you told me you would make a good training partner for me first thing i’d do is ask your credentials and who you fought.
not go
“Damn you look like GSP!”
That GSP body is as a result of him busting his asssssssssss day in and day out with superior genetics and unparalleled commitment to his sport.
I sincerely doubt he had a biceps day.
(not that there is ANYTHING wrong with that)
[/quote]
Do you think gym strength and hypertrophy become more important when a combat athlete is trying to move up in weight classes? Just curious.
[quote]Quinnthology wrote:
… In other words, how can I attain GSP’s body?[/quote]
What is your starting point?
[quote]Nikiforos wrote:
Do you think gym strength and hypertrophy become more important when a combat athlete is trying to move up in weight classes? Just curious.[/quote]
If you cannot gain the weight through standard strength training, conditioning, and nutrition then you shouldn’t move up in weight. Controlled rep training (traditional bodybuilder training) is not the best as it results in high levels of sarcoplasmic (nonfunctional) hypertrophy. Since combat athletes are looking for a maximal strength to weight ratio, this is obviously less than ideal.
Chad Waterbury had an article a while back on this site, something like 7 keys for Fighters. Wasn’t a routine buy ya tips, and it did say focus on shoulder stability
[quote]Quinnthology wrote:
In other words, how can I attain GSP’s body?[/quote]
All you need:
- Van painted black. No windows.
- Pipe Wrench
- Dark alley
[quote]Nikiforos wrote:
Do you think gym strength and hypertrophy become more important when a combat athlete is trying to move up in weight classes? Just curious.
[/quote]
Depends on why your moving up in weight class. If your a growing boy or a natural middleweight who just can’t cut to welter weight anymore then I would say no. You probably already have the strength.
Its tough going up a weight class on hypertrophy and weight gain alone. A natural heavy is going to have the advantage over a natural light heavy who’s fighting up a class. Also fighting strategies change as you gain weight.
Welterweights have a different fight then the heavys. With that said it also depends on the sport. Boxing is a long stand up game and you will want as little excess weight as possible. Strength will trump hypertrophy, assuming there is enough stamina and one doesn’t punch himself out.
Judo is much shorter with both stand up and ground games. In the throwing and ground game sometimes being the heavier person is an advantage in its own whether its all contractile tissue or not.
[quote]Fiction wrote:
Nikiforos wrote:
Do you think gym strength and hypertrophy become more important when a combat athlete is trying to move up in weight classes? Just curious.
If you cannot gain the weight through standard strength training, conditioning, and nutrition then you shouldn’t move up in weight.
Controlled rep training (traditional bodybuilder training) is not the best as it results in high levels of sarcoplasmic (nonfunctional) hypertrophy. Since combat athletes are looking for a maximal strength to weight ratio, this is obviously less than ideal.[/quote]
I’d actually have to somewhat disagree with sarcoplasmic hypertrophy being “nonfunctional” for a fighter. The sarcoplasm is where the muscle stores energy, and also where it creates energy. Maximal strength, while important to a fighter, actually isn’t as important as strength endurance in my experience. Unless maybe you are so much stronger than your opponent that you can end the fight very quickly.
Also gym strength will transfer to ring strength if your mechanics/technique are sound. And yes, I think those things would be important for someone trying to move up in weight classes, since they’ll likely be fighting naturally bigger, stronger opponents.
Christian Thibaudeau:
"Non-functional hypertrophy (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy) doesn�??t lead to an improvement in the capacity to produce force, but it does lead to added body weight (thus you have to carry more weight without having more strength).
…
Non-functional hypertrophy is an increase in the non-contractile elements of a muscle fiber and it has been shown to occur predominently with bodybuilding-type training
(Zatsiorsky, 1996). Non-functional hypertrophy is equivalent to increasing the weight of a car but not the strength of it�??s engine (or adding wagons to a train). So ultimately it is understandable why it is not desirable."
[quote]Fiction wrote:
Christian Thibaudau:
"Non-functional hypertrophy (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy) doesn�??t lead to an improvement in the capacity to produce force, but it does lead to added body weight (thus you have to carry more weight without having more strength).
[/quote]
“Non-functional” in terms of not improving contractile protein strength, yes. “Non-functional” in terms of not being useful, no.
First off, sarcoplasmic hypertrophy will actually increase one’s strength, as it improves the leverages across the joints (think why heavyweight powerlifters and olympic lifters also carry a good deal of “non functional” weight).
Secondly, Thib isn’t talking about a combat athlete in the above statement, or someone who needs a great deal of strength endurance. The sarcoplasm is the site where the muscle stores energy, and produces energy for contraction. For someone who is looking for sustained effort (like a fighter) the better their body is at storing and producing energy, the better.
[quote]
…
Non-functional hypertrophy is an increase in the non-contractile elements of a muscle fiber and it has been shown to occur predominently with bodybuilding-type training
(Zatsiorsky, 1996). Non-functional hypertrophy is equivalent to increasing the weight of a car but not the strength of it�??s engine (or adding wagons to a train). So ultimately it is understandable why it is not desirable."[/quote]
Once again, this is looking at performance through a very narrow lens. No, it doesn’t increase the actual contractile elements ability to produce force. And yes, it does increase the non-contractile elements size. But that’s not necessarily a bad thing.
Now I’m not saying that a fighter should train like a bodybuilder, just that doing higher rep work, or more sustained effort weight training, which builds as much the sarcoplasm as it does the contractile proteins, is very beneficial for a combat athlete.
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
Do you want to actually look like an intimidating motherfucker? Talk to Christian Thibaudeau or Dante of DoggCrapp Training. And put your EVERYTHING into that. Don’t be “brad pitt in fightclub”… be fucking “The incredible hulk”
[/quote]
I have done a lot of Thibaudeau’s programs and have found that my biggest gains come from when I do stuff he recommends, ie burnouts, rest pause, etc. That being said, I don’t really care about looking like GSP anymore, kind of just a joke. My body has enough “size” muscle to make me happy, I want to become strong as shit, the “intimidating motherfucker”. I want to know what kind of strength training I need to do to punch harder (given that technique is 90% of hitting hard), to control a guy on the ground with base strength.
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:But (again no offense meant) I wouldn’t train you. Why waste my time. Your GOAL is to be mediocre. You want to be a good training partner…?
The best training partners are someone their level and you won’t BE THEIR LEVEL unless you have the same mindset, much less the physical attributes that are acquired damn near immediately upon wanting to be the best.
[/quote]
I’m not going to deny it, this is all I want in terms of fighting. I want to be able to be a badass who can defend himself at all times. I don’t want to be a professional fighter. I want to spend my free time in gyms working and sparring and rolling with people who fight for a living. Yeah maybe I won’t dedicate my whole life to it but there will always be guys I’m better at submission fighting than if I train BJJ. I can be an adequate sparring partner if I can kick and strike well in general. Not everyone they train with is a fighter. I think this is an understandable goal that is respectable. And all that aside, how about the initial reasoning, I want to be able to fight if it ever, God forbid, comes to me and I can’t run away.
noble enough…
might seem like i’m oversimplifying it but it really is nearly this easy…
It’s like 90% technique, good hips, etc… So you’re best off spending your time working that.
This should be reflected in your time spent training per week. less than 20% should be spent on general strength training imo if youre primary goal is to be a better fighter.
I’ll exclude conditioning for now as you should know how important that is. If you can’t outright beat someone you can always out work them… anyway
for your strength in the ground game important things are
mobility, flexibility
static strength/endurance
grip strength/endurance
standup
mobility, flexibility
explosive power
Ground game things like parallette training, static holds, long time under tension…those exercises work best.
Standup, you have to identify what attributes you’re weak at in the power equation strength or speed. Then prioritize training that attribute while training others on a maintence level.
several “bang for your buck” exercises that imo are nice little measuring sticks to determine potential punching power are
1 arm jerk
1 arm snatch
power starts through 2 legs, expressed through the end of 1 limb. Also one is back musculature (antagonist of punching motion- the recoil… snatch) other is the same musculature involved in throwing the punch (jerk).
I’m not saying that if you can do big#'s in those that you can hit hard, but I have seen a possible correlation between the two.
That said its a great big bang for your buck if you’re strength/speed levels are the same (strength, deep a2g squat or DL… speed, jump squats)… then you can bring up both attributes at the same time or individually.
and its nearly 3 am and i lost my train of thought so… i’ll finish up more later after i get some sleep
Moritz Klatten likes the incline press chinup pushjerk and vertical jump
Here is a schedule I have kind of planned to organize training. It’s based somehow loosely on GSP’s workout in the Status magazine. Biggest exception being that GSP only lifts weight twice a week and I lift four days a week.
Monday
11AM: (Morning drills)
- stretching - 45 minutes
- jump roping/shadowboxing circuit
- Horse stance punches, knives, elbows
- tumbling
- kicking lines
3PM:
Weights - Chest
8-9:30 PM - BJJ
Tuesday
11AM:
(Morning drills)
3PM: Weights - 5x5Squats, Leg Press, lying leg curls, etc
6:30 PM
If not in the mood for BJJ class, then:
(Night drills)
- stretching
-45 minutes - tumbling
- shadow submission drills
- kicking drills
-individual technique practice
-kicking line drills
Wednesday
(Morning drills) + contact sparring
3PM: Weights - Bic/Tri/Core
8:00 PM BJJ
Thursday
(Morning drills) + hilly bike ride
6:30 PM BJJ
Friday
(Morning drills) + contact sparring
3PM - Back/Traps/Shoulders… weighted pulls, seated cable rows, straight arms pull downs, light high volume shoulder work, clean and press
(Night drills)
Saturday
10:30-12:30: BJJ
Sunday
(Morning drills)
HIIT
(Night drills)
It seems like everyone does stretching prior to working out despite the wealth of evidence that it decreases force production, increases muscle damage, and a wealth of other negative things.
Why?
[quote]Fiction wrote:
It seems like everyone does stretching prior to working out despite the wealth of evidence that it decreases force production, increases muscle damage, and a wealth of other negative things.
Why?[/quote]
Because I think it’s bullshit.
People always say that, but to me it’s the same thing as the “Fighters shouldn’t run long distances” myth, or the “athletes succeed IN SPITE of their programs.”
Forgive me for possibly being dogmatic, but I think alot of things athletes have done for a long time have been done for a long time because, quite simply, they work.
I doubt you’re any more likely to get injured if you stretch before or after. I have, however, hurt myself when I wasn’t “warmed up”. Most times, stretching figures into that warming up.