'How to Train' Questions

Chad_Waterbury · October 15, 2008, 1:44am

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:

By the way, I’m pretty sure Chad never claimed to train Rickson’s son, very much less Rickson himself (whom by all accounts doesn’t lift “weights”, fyi). On Chad’s website it states that he’s the, “director of strength and conditioning at the Rickson Gracie International Jiu Jitsu Center in West Los Angeles”. And there are several that would dispute this claim.

[/quote]

OK, so I’m late to the game for reading through these posts, but I was just notified of this statement that must be addressed as respectfully as possible.

You say there are several who would dispute the claim that I’m the director of S&C at Rickson Gracie’s school? Are you serious? Really, are you serious?

Name one person.

I was awarded that position in September of 2007 by Rickson and Kim Gracie. I’m the first person to hold that position at the school - they never had a S&C program or coach before I came on. It’s an honor and an absolute pleasure to train those guys.

Did I train Rickson during his career? Of course not! I was still in college at the time of his LAST fight against Funaki. Hell, I was still in high school when he was competing in Vale Tudo. But whenever Rickson is in town I always make a point to help him with any joint/training issues he has. Without question, his body took a beating all those years and he’s just trying to stay as strong and mobile as possible.

As for Kron, yes I’m his trainer. I have been since the winter of 2007. This is what’s frustrating for me. I make a point not to talk about who I work with, but by not talking about it I get flamed. Either way it’s a loss - that’s why you don’t see guys like me hanging out on internet forums. It’s a waste of time and a no-win situation.

Here’s what I’ve learned over the last 8 years of being on forums: no one has ever changed his mind because of an internet discussion. Whatever people currently believe is what they’ll always believe.

If people hate me, for whatever reason, they’ll always hate me, no matter what I say or do to support my methods. There’s no sense in fighting it. That’s just something that guys like me accept. It’s the negative that goes along with being a writer. But the positives far outweigh the negatives. I’ve met thousands of cool people, and the number of shitheads I’ve encountered can be counted on one hand (well, maybe two). Not bad.

Yakn_Joe · October 15, 2008, 4:06am

Amen, brother.
Just keep doing what you do.

chokeu2 · October 15, 2008, 11:15pm

Xen, well done.

I am a newcomer to these forums, but not a newcomer to training. I had my first “MMA” fight in 1991, but back then we called it Vale Tudo. I’ve been training for over 30 years, last summer I gave up owning interest in three MMA schools, one in the states, one in Brazil, and one in South Africa. My business partner was a Master level Brazilian. I’ve been around MMA from the start, literally.

That said, I have to say that Xen, brother, your posts are spot on, I would even attempt to buttress them with much. Well done.

But what I can say, is that I’ve been training MMA longer than most of the current participants have been alive. In fact, I came to this forum because I’m walking away from MMA, and coming into strength training!

Why? The two are TOTALLY separate entities. If power or strength training would work in MMA, I, or one of my guys would have found it over the years. Is there a place for certainly lifts in MMA? Absolutely. Can you add intense strength training into serious MMA training? No, certainly not.

As a “serious” MMA competitor, you have to fend off enough injuries, one would not be able to avoid injuries as a result of strength training, and then the injuries that would result due to over training.

There are too many other things that one needs to train for, that would preclude adding strength training to the mix.

There were many times that I was up against a much stronger opponent, but because I was anaerobically stronger, I win.

I’m ending MMA training so that I can focus on strength training, there is that much of a difference.

Well, that, and because every young buck that gets a couple classes under his belt thinks he’s the next champ… Too many wanna be thuggies getting into what was once a great sport.

~end rant…

Xen_Nova · October 18, 2008, 11:06pm

word.

John_S1 · October 26, 2008, 8:14am

You guys say that the training be it MMA, BJJ, Boxing, or whatever it is you are doing is to much strain on your body to do strength training. Now I understand tech is important but wouldn’t it be more benifical for a fighter instead of training his MA 6 days a week to maybe 3 days a week and 2 days of strength training?

If spending all your time strength training is considered wrong does not the same hold true to Technique training? Would it not be better to be Strong and have a good level of understanding the Technique’s then being weak and great at tech or strong/no tech.

3rdegreebyrne · October 26, 2008, 5:43pm

[quote]John S. wrote:
You guys say that the training be it MMA, BJJ, Boxing, or whatever it is you are doing is to much strain on your body to do strength training. Now I understand tech is important but wouldn’t it be more benifical for a fighter instead of training his MA 6 days a week to maybe 3 days a week and 2 days of strength training?

If spending all your time strength training is considered wrong does not the same hold true to Technique training? Would it not be better to be Strong and have a good level of understanding the Technique’s then being weak and great at tech or strong/no tech.[/quote]

Have you read any of the posts on this thread? Honestly. Come on. Before I repeat anything that the more experienced guys have said already - go back and read. And the short answer NO.

John_S1 · October 26, 2008, 7:14pm

[quote]3rdegreebyrne wrote:
John S. wrote:
You guys say that the training be it MMA, BJJ, Boxing, or whatever it is you are doing is to much strain on your body to do strength training. Now I understand tech is important but wouldn’t it be more benifical for a fighter instead of training his MA 6 days a week to maybe 3 days a week and 2 days of strength training?

If spending all your time strength training is considered wrong does not the same hold true to Technique training? Would it not be better to be Strong and have a good level of understanding the Technique’s then being weak and great at tech or strong/no tech.

Have you read any of the posts on this thread? Honestly. Come on. Before I repeat anything that the more experienced guys have said already - go back and read. And the short answer NO.[/quote]

I have read everything in this thread. But from my experience it isn’t as you guys are saying. When I went to basic we did GFT, now we had people who did BJJ exclusively but we had one guy who did BJJ part time and lifted part time. He told me he did 3 days a week bjj and 2 days a week lifting like I said. Now ill let you guess who won every time.

Now every time the bjj guys would tell me how strength wasn’t important and that there technique could carry them through guys who where much stronger but everytime they rolled with this monster they got crushed. This was not only in gft but when we rolled around in the barracks.

Now this is from a Legend in the field maybe you have heard of him Randy Couture on his upcoming fight with brock lesnar.

ï¿½??When you get stuck underneath those guys, I donï¿½??t care how good your jiu-jitsu is, theyï¿½??re not going to give up submissions, theyï¿½??re not going to get caught,ï¿½?? he said. ï¿½??So now youï¿½??re down there underneath a big guy getting hit. I think I switched back to that wrestling mentality where when I get on my back, I want to scramble, fight, scrap, do whatever I have to do to get off my back, just like I would in a wrestling match.ï¿½??

http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=7233&zoneid=13

Now that is a link to the site where he said that.

From what I have seen and what others have said I have found that the guy who is strong and knows the tech will destroy the guy who is very strong/no tech or weak/very good tech.

This is my argument for doing both, I do respect what everyone else has said I am just saying this is what I have seen.

3rdegreebyrne · October 26, 2008, 8:17pm

[quote]John S. wrote:
3rdegreebyrne wrote:
John S. wrote:
You guys say that the training be it MMA, BJJ, Boxing, or whatever it is you are doing is to much strain on your body to do strength training. Now I understand tech is important but wouldn’t it be more benifical for a fighter instead of training his MA 6 days a week to maybe 3 days a week and 2 days of strength training?

If spending all your time strength training is considered wrong does not the same hold true to Technique training? Would it not be better to be Strong and have a good level of understanding the Technique’s then being weak and great at tech or strong/no tech.

Have you read any of the posts on this thread? Honestly. Come on. Before I repeat anything that the more experienced guys have said already - go back and read. And the short answer NO.

I have read everything in this thread. But from my experience it isn’t as you guys are saying. When I went to basic we did GFT, now we had people who did BJJ exclusively but we had one guy who did BJJ part time and lifted part time. He told me he did 3 days a week bjj and 2 days a week lifting like I said. Now ill let you guess who won every time.

Now every time the bjj guys would tell me how strength wasn’t important and that there technique could carry them through guys who where much stronger but everytime they rolled with this monster they got crushed. This was not only in gft but when we rolled around in the barracks.

Now this is from a Legend in the field maybe you have heard of him Randy Couture on his upcoming fight with brock lesnar.

ï¿½??When you get stuck underneath those guys, I donï¿½??t care how good your jiu-jitsu is, theyï¿½??re not going to give up submissions, theyï¿½??re not going to get caught,ï¿½?? he said. ï¿½??So now youï¿½??re down there underneath a big guy getting hit. I think I switched back to that wrestling mentality where when I get on my back, I want to scramble, fight, scrap, do whatever I have to do to get off my back, just like I would in a wrestling match.ï¿½??

http://www.mmaweekly.com/absolutenm/templates/dailynews.asp?articleid=7233&zoneid=13

Now that is a link to the site where he said that.

From what I have seen and what others have said I have found that the guy who is strong and knows the tech will destroy the guy who is very strong/no tech or weak/very good tech.

This is my argument for doing both, I do respect what everyone else has said I am just saying this is what I have seen.[/quote]

You needed to qualify your statement. There is a huge difference between someone who is doing BJJ in basic, and someone who is training to be a pro or even amateur fighter. The training isn’t even close. I know a kid who just graduated basic who won all his combatives in JJ, who didnt really lift weights at all and wasn’t even all that good at JJ. From what I’ve gathered, it sounds like your weightlifting BJJ guy is a big fish in a small pond. Obviously lifting weights works for him in that situation.

And ya a stronger dude, when skill is approximately the same is gonna have an advantage no doubt. But if your training for a fight, you want to have time on the mat, not time in the weight room. It makes you tired for sparring, fatigues the CNS etc.

Also bout’ Randy - he fights in the heavy weight division, which is an open weight class. He is relatively small for a heavy weight - and ya if you’ve got a dude that’s strong as hell and 50lbs heavier than you (I.E Tim Sylvia, I don’t remember the exact difference in weight) its gonna make a difference. But notice how Randy didn’t say the solution was to train in maximal strength? He is one of the biggest proponents of barbell complexes for anaerobic endurance in the sport.

If your gonna be training in MMA, chances are you have some background in wrestling, or high school sports or something. Your not gonna have “weak” guys that become prominent fighters. It just isn’t gonna happen. Wrestling and JJ have shown to cause hypertrophy, similar to weightlifting. So this strong vs weak scenario is really valid. It’s more like strong vs stronger. Where the dude with more technique will probably come out on top.

Not to say that strength training isnt beneficial at all, but you asked if it is more beneficial than 5-6 days of tech training. Which it most definitely is not. Particularly since you included boxing in your question - maximal strength training has very little to do with how good a boxer you are. Just cause you saw one dude who lifted weights beat some guys at JJ, doesn’t mean fighters should replace tech days with strength training.

EDIT: Randy Couture also took Tim Sylvia to school in there fight, through a flawless blending of skill and style.

John_S1 · October 27, 2008, 2:15am

[quote]3rdegreebyrne wrote:
John S. wrote:
3rdegreebyrne wrote:

You needed to qualify your statement. There is a huge difference between someone who is doing BJJ in basic, and someone who is training to be a pro or even amateur fighter. The training isn’t even close. I know a kid who just graduated basic who won all his combatives in JJ, who didnt really lift weights at all and wasn’t even all that good at JJ. From what I’ve gathered, it sounds like your weightlifting BJJ guy is a big fish in a small pond. Obviously lifting weights works for him in that situation.

And ya a stronger dude, when skill is approximately the same is gonna have an advantage no doubt. But if your training for a fight, you want to have time on the mat, not time in the weight room. It makes you tired for sparring, fatigues the CNS etc.

Also bout’ Randy - he fights in the heavy weight division, which is an open weight class. He is relatively small for a heavy weight - and ya if you’ve got a dude that’s strong as hell and 50lbs heavier than you (I.E Tim Sylvia, I don’t remember the exact difference in weight) its gonna make a difference. But notice how Randy didn’t say the solution was to train in maximal strength? He is one of the biggest proponents of barbell complexes for anaerobic endurance in the sport.

If your gonna be training in MMA, chances are you have some background in wrestling, or high school sports or something. Your not gonna have “weak” guys that become prominent fighters. It just isn’t gonna happen. Wrestling and JJ have shown to cause hypertrophy, similar to weightlifting. So this strong vs weak scenario is really valid. It’s more like strong vs stronger. Where the dude with more technique will probably come out on top.

Not to say that strength training isnt beneficial at all, but you asked if it is more beneficial than 5-6 days of tech training. Which it most definitely is not. Particularly since you included boxing in your question - maximal strength training has very little to do with how good a boxer you are. Just cause you saw one dude who lifted weights beat some guys at JJ, doesn’t mean fighters should replace tech days with strength training.

EDIT: Randy Couture also took Tim Sylvia to school in there fight, through a flawless blending of skill and style.[/quote]

Did we do BJJ in basic yes, but that is not what I am saying these people did. The examples I am giving are people who trained outside of basic in BJJ. These people where training for the very thing most of the people in this section are.

There are many things to a fight Strength, Endurance, Tech, mindset, tactics. Working all of these should be your main goal. Becoming a complete fighter is what you should strive for. I’m more impressed with the fighter who can choke me out 5 different ways and has the strength to hang with me then the fighter who can choke me out 50 different ways but can’t even dent me.

Now don’t get me wrong I respect the hell out of the guy who trains bjj or what ever martial arts he is doing 6 days a week, But I do believe that he would do much better by working all areas.

PHGN · October 27, 2008, 5:02pm

I don’t know if it’s been mentionned already but there is a really interesting article on elitefts.com about a competitive powerlifter making the change to MMA. Good read.

millasur · October 27, 2008, 8:44pm

[quote]John S. wrote:

There are many things to a fight Strength, Endurance, Tech, mindset, tactics. Working all of these should be your main goal. Becoming a complete fighter is what you should strive for. I’m more impressed with the fighter who can choke me out 5 different ways and has the strength to hang with me then the fighter who can choke me out 50 different ways but can’t even dent me.

Now don’t get me wrong I respect the hell out of the guy who trains bjj or what ever martial arts he is doing 6 days a week, But I do believe that he would do much better by working all areas.[/quote]

Some great posts in here:

Anyone with a brain can clearly see that MMA has evolved into an all around competition, you need striking, grappling, wrestling skills for takedown and takedown defense and more to be a complete fighter. If you have enough time (or are good enough) to train all of these things effectively and still have the power and capacity in your body to lift HEAVY weight 2wice a week, I salute you.

The problem I would consider would be WHEN to focus on what skills - eg imagine an up n coming amateur, won 2 or 3 fights, fighting his way (perhaps a strong wrestler, fight starts, takedwon, G n P, tko win). If they only develop their wrestling and takedown skills, there will be a fight soon come where they’ll take the guy down, and get submitted from guard. Or knocked out - whatever, you see where I’m going with this.

You ALWAYS need skills, or to improve the skills you have.

If you are posting about giving up some training days to lift and blah blah blah, you are in the wrong sport - how do boxers get better at boxing? Oh yea, they box. What about gymnasts? They do gymnastics. Champion Cyclists? They run! Obviously! (of course they don’t, they fucking cycle.)

And to that Drew idiot, you don’t HAVE to have past experience to be good at teaching something, ever herad of Joe Calzaghe? He’s not bad (lol), his dad had never boxed in his life but has trained him his whole life. And if you had an ounce of common sense you’d realise that there is always good information and bad information, if you’re too stupid to take what you need or locate for yourself what’s important, you don’t deserve to be reading posts from Xen or Mr. Waterbury.

Bram_Wiley · October 27, 2008, 10:10pm

[quote]John S. wrote:
Did we do BJJ in basic yes, but that is not what I am saying these people did. The examples I am giving are people who trained outside of basic in BJJ. These people where training for the very thing most of the people in this section are.

There are many things to a fight Strength, Endurance, Tech, mindset, tactics. Working all of these should be your main goal. Becoming a complete fighter is what you should strive for. I’m more impressed with the fighter who can choke me out 5 different ways and has the strength to hang with me then the fighter who can choke me out 50 different ways but can’t even dent me.

Now don’t get me wrong I respect the hell out of the guy who trains bjj or what ever martial arts he is doing 6 days a week, But I do believe that he would do much better by working all areas.[/quote]

I thought the same way for a long time. I train at a very good BJJ academy, we have numerous gold medalists in the pan-ams and world championships of BJJ at the blue through brown belt levels.

The only thing that the top guys at my academy have in common is that they train a ton of Jiu-Jitsu and they do zero to almost no strength training. I’m including bodyweight drills in this as well as stuff they don’t do.

Literally, every guy in the gym who is a true beast, doesn’t seem to do anything weight related. They just train a ton.

Bram_Wiley · October 27, 2008, 10:11pm

[quote]PHGN wrote:
I don’t know if it’s been mentionned already but there is a really interesting article on elitefts.com about a competitive powerlifter making the change to MMA. Good read.[/quote]

thanks for the heads up

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/powerlifting_to_mma.htm

John_S1 · October 27, 2008, 10:33pm

[quote]Bram Wiley wrote:
PHGN wrote:
I don’t know if it’s been mentionned already but there is a really interesting article on elitefts.com about a competitive powerlifter making the change to MMA. Good read.

thanks for the heads up

http://www.elitefts.com/documents/powerlifting_to_mma.htm
[/quote]

Thanks for the link it was very informitive. And to your other post I still stand by what I have seen, just as you stand by what you have seen. The guy in this artical could afford to spend all his time on tech because he was already a beast, but you put that strength into someone who is already very skilled in MMA and you got yourself a future champion.

chokeu2 · October 29, 2008, 3:21pm

[quote]
Did we do BJJ in basic yes, but that is not what I am saying these people did. The examples I am giving are people who trained outside of basic in BJJ. These people where training for the very thing most of the people in this section are.

There are many things to a fight Strength, Endurance, Tech, mindset, tactics. Working all of these should be your main goal. Becoming a complete fighter is what you should strive for. I’m more impressed with the fighter who can choke me out 5 different ways and has the strength to hang with me then the fighter who can choke me out 50 different ways but can’t even dent me.

Now don’t get me wrong I respect the hell out of the guy who trains bjj or what ever martial arts he is doing 6 days a week, But I do believe that he would do much better by working all areas.[/quote]

I’m a former Army guy, but stayed involved from a combatives training stand point. The combatives training in the military is weak at best. But I do see the point that you are trying to make. You’ve attempted to make it in a very well written fashion mind you, well done.

That said, trained correctly, a BJJ/MMA guy doesn’t need to “strength” train. He will get that training via his time on the mats. Strength specific training certainly builds over all strength, but it doesn’t optimize the strength paths and CNS response required to be explosive in a fight.

To me, the difference is crystal clear. I’m in the process of leaving a nearly 30 year walk in the martial arts, to train for strength and shape. I had my first MMA fight in 1991. The methodologies are different. Strength is great, and it is a required tool, but it needs to be fostered and conditioned in a fashion that duplicates movement on the mat.

Stength for the sake of strength weakens the over all ability of a fighter to carry on in a long fight. Now, a fighter who’s strength comes from movements that mimic what he does on the mat, will be strong in all of the “right ways”. I realize that is an ambiguous way of stating my point, but there is a huge difference in training.

Strength is but one tool, just like a take down, just like a choke, just like an armbar, etc.

Sport specific conditioning, technique, and positioning win the day on the mats or in the cage.

Roundhead · October 30, 2008, 1:05pm

Does this discussion not assume a certain level of baseline strength though? I mean someone coming totally new to the game and pretty much untrained would surely be better off with three days a week of tech training and maybe three days of strength and conditioning?

3rdegreebyrne · October 30, 2008, 3:25pm

[quote]Roundhead wrote:
Does this discussion not assume a certain level of baseline strength though? I mean someone coming totally new to the game and pretty much untrained would surely be better off with three days a week of tech training and maybe three days of strength and conditioning?[/quote]

Well personally I would agree with you. My former comments on this thread were aimed more at debunking the the theory that “fighters” (not newbs) that trained 6 days a week would be better served dropping tech days to focus on max strength.
I believe someone had a comment along the lines of “I’m more impressed with the guy who can choke me out 5 ways and is strong enough to hang with me than dude that can choke me out 50 ways and can’t even dent me”. As if he wouldn’t lose against a very skilled BBJ fighter who didn’t include specific MS days, because the dude wasn’t beefy enough to “put a dent in him”.

I do, however, believe that periodization is the key. When a fighter is just starting out, or for someone reason is a long way out from a fight - ya working on some MS would be beneficial. Combine skill and strength and you have a dangerous combo. However once you get past your newb gains in strength, or your program starts to stagnant or whatever, its better just to drop it and work on skill+conditioning rather than spending weeks troubleshooting to get the extra 10 pounds on your bench.

Stuff like this should be done sparingly, like maybe a 2-3 month meso cyle in the beginning (If you have never lifted in your life, if your already a lifter going into it you don’t need this), followed by maybe a 5-6 week cycle once a year in a self-designated off-season. Like I said before, I was talking more about how fighters should not drop skill days to add strength days at any other point than those 2 exceptions.

Even still this goes more for MMA,and BJJ. Boxers really don’t need to lift weights. I’m not saying it would hurt them, I’m just saying the way the weight classes are structured and the technical nature of the sport, you can develop the necessary capacities without lifting.

Xen_Nova · October 31, 2008, 8:01pm

Allow me to interject.

I’m going to divide this into different posts so I have time to think/organize my thoughts.

If you’re a super raw beginner, meaning no prior athletic experience. You can develop a lot of the strength you ‘need’ just THROUGH your technique training. You’re still moving, lifting, stretching, pulling, performing isometic movements, and making various bodyweight adjustments.

That said…

** TECHNIQUE IS BASED ON TECHNIQUE, NOT STRENGTH… Especially in jujitsu. All the techniques are designed to MINIMIZE your reliance on muscular ‘strength’.

Brazilian jiujitsu/Gracie Jiujitsu was designed specifically so that weaker opponent can overcome a stronger one. IF YOU’RE MUSCLING YOUR TECHNIQUE THAN MORE THAN LIKELY YOU"RE DOING IT WRONG!!! If you need to bench more to improve your heel hook then you’re doing it wrong.

Wrestling is the same thing, you need a higher level of strength and conditioning to keep the furious pace, and pressure your opponent, but generally speaking 99% of wrestling moves are “easy” and you shouldn’t have to muscle… if you do muscle it you’re body was probably in the wrong position.

Boxing is very similar in that respect as 3rd degree mentioned. Boxer can benefit a lot more from weight training in theory because of the ballistic nature of the sport. But most of the greatest boxers did NO WEIGHT TRAINING WHATSOEVER:

Rocky marciano, muhammed ali, floyd mayweather, hatton, roy jones, etc… Keep in mind most of them did a LOT of bodyweight conditioning but I’m pretty sure they have no idea what they can bench.

I say this over, and fucking over on threads…it’s my fucking mantra now… but a PROPER thai kick, even low, not high (not what you usually see in the UFC) is more akin to a ballet movement than any weight lift.

The closest that comes to it is a full olympic snatch but even that is arguably easier. To generate force in something so technique intensive you have to focus on your improving, streamlining and producing more efficient TECHNIQUE.

This is why 108lb thai kids can generate literally bone shattering force with the majority of their strikes. Why in the clinch (plumb) they throw you all over the place and tangle you up in positions you didn’t know were possible while throwing knee’s to your floating ribs.

Force generation in the human body is a result of proper kinetic linking through extremely efficient technique.

Your 500lb squat is going to MARGINALLY increase the power in your strikes if you can’t generate the force in the right way. But take someone who CAN generate tremendous amounts of force and then give them a bigger engine (500lb squat) and you’ll witness a damn atomic bomb everytime they hit something.

That said, my best counter point is Bernard Hopkins (or evander holyfield take your pick). Older guy, added strength training, and turned an already methodical assassin into healthier more powerful version of what he already was.

It’s my opinion that the strength training he began to include is part of what is giving him the longevity he is now enjoying in the sport. He is now able to retain a lot of athletic attributes that normally would slip away with age but proper strength training has kept him fresh.

But that strength training couldn’t be utilized if he didn’t already have the world beater capacity… if didn’t already have the

TECHNIQUE.

Xen_Nova · October 31, 2008, 8:51pm

[quote]Roundhead wrote:
Does this discussion not assume a certain level of baseline strength though? I mean someone coming totally new to the game and pretty much untrained would surely be better off with three days a week of tech training and maybe three days of strength and conditioning?[/quote]

No. All technique first. For the reasons I mentioned previously… basically you’ll get all you need initially from just training your sport. I would consider strength and conditioning shit something reserved for more advanced athletes actually.

Most people don’t come from a background where they did NO sports so most everyone does have a baseline strength level. Rarely will you encounter someone with NO athletic background at all. At the very least you had P.E. in school.

This brings up several other questions though:

how much strength is really necessary?

In jiujitsu? Minimal. Hell less is more. How strong do you think Marcello Garcia is? I seriously doubt he can bench his own bodyweight and he’s arguably the best grappler in the world.

Also again refer to my example regarding thaiboxers for standup.

What KIND of strength should you aim to develop?

Eddie Bravo calls it the “Squeeze” in his books. Anyone who’s rolled with a high level jj guy knows what he’s talking about. He says guys like Marcello have a world class “Squeeze” meaning if they go for a choke, or a triangle,

or sometime similar they have the ability to crush whatever they’re attacking almost instantly. Actually, let him explain it himself:

Between squeeze and grip strength, the rest of what you “need” is just straight conditioning.

Which brings us to another point:

STRENGTH AND CONDITIONING ARE INTERTWINED

In combat sports in general this is true, but MMA it holds even more value. MMA is not a sport of power, or just plain endurance. A sport about just pure force generation would be power lifting.

If you want to learn how to create more pure muscular FORCE, study powerlifting. Plain ol’ endurance to be able to just GO forever at a steady pace… marathon running or triathalons are the ticket…

But MMA is about POWER ENDURANCE…

You want to be able to move with precision, power, and skill for a certain prescribed amount of time. It’s not about how hard you can hit ONCE. You’re not throwing one punch and sitting down. No you have to throw multitude of punches over a certain period.

Sidebar:
if you’re smart about it you either increase your efficiency on those punches (anderson silva style) or you push your opponent and overwhelm him threw volume (GSP style) and have a rhythm (riddum) so intense it makes me more efficient percentage wise.

It’s kind of like game theory. Meaning if I can take you down 2 out of 10 times, but i only try 3 times then I didn’t at all reach my potential … but if did attempt 10 takedowns then percentage wise i should have taken you down twice.

Again if you’re smart you’ll approach that from both ends (conjugate) and attempt to increase my takedown percentage from 20% but also increase the volume of your takedowns so that you give yourself more opportunities to succeed.

In punching meaning if you have a 33% accuracy rating attempt to get your accuracy to the 50% range but you can increase your success by also throwing a higher volume of punches as well.

</end sidebar>

I’ve written about this too many times to go into it again but this example should clear it up (for the most part):

the force production exercise everyone knows is the power clean. Cool. having a max power clean of 315 is fucking great that puts you way above most folks. But MMA is how many times you can power clean in 3 rounds of 5min…

So if you’re only using 115 to power clean over that 5min you’re not near your potential. Then lets say the guy that can clean 225 is using 115 over the same 5 min. His expression of power is greater than yours! His 51% over 5min to your 37% over the same 5min period.

This doesn’t seem like much of a difference at first. Because you view yourself as still stronger. Frankly you’re not. Or at least you only are at the beginning of the round. If he can survive your intial onslaught then he’s going to slaughter you. He operates at a higher percentage of his maximal strength than you do.

This is ESPECIALLY going to mean a lot when it comes to the uniquely complex kinetic linking required in proper striking or grappling. Before we were talking power clean technique, now we’re talking striking/grappling technique, vastly different.

Even if you both have the same level of technique, if he’s operating at 51% power when you’re operating at 37% he’s going to seem soooooo much stronger than you it can break you mentally.

But If you can perform the same amount of power cleans in 5 min with 225 as someone else can with 115 THEN you’ve increase your useable “mma strength”…which is tied so closely with your conditioning that the two terms are interchangeable.

The goal ultimately is to be able to produce ridiculous amounts of force so that operating at only 30% for you is someone elses’s 50%… thus when you are able to actually operate at 50-60% you’re so high above everyone else that you’ll be able to crush their will just through your ferocity…

combine this with flawless technique and we’ll have to start calling you The Juggernaught (bitch!).

In addition to this with good technique, you rarely need to be operating at more than say 20% to make a technique work properly, or to “cruise” through certain movements (BECAUSE YOUR TECHNIQUE IS EFFICIENT ENOUGH) and only go BANG 100% at the moments you choose.

Your ‘gas tank’ will be full because you never expend more energy than you need to. But if for instance you need to push hard to win a round or something you have a vast reservoir to tap into.

3rdegreebyrne · November 3, 2008, 7:24am

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
Roundhead wrote:
Does this discussion not assume a certain level of baseline strength though? I mean someone coming totally new to the game and pretty much untrained would surely be better off with three days a week of tech training and maybe three days of strength and conditioning?