Because he acts like an expert no one else on this forum does but Chad and i know he trains the gracie camp rickson etc…
[quote]drewh wrote:
Because he acts like an expert no one else on this forum does but Chad and i know he trains the gracie camp rickson etc… [/quote]
Rickson’s is and has been in Brazil for the past couple of years.
More broadly: I’m wondering if you have anything substantive to say about Xen’s post? It’s pretty well reasoned. Is there a flaw in his logic? If so, where?
I am in between CW’s and Xen’s posts. I do think maximal strength is a big weakness in fighters, as Waterbury notes. The problem is how one incorporates max strength when max strength work bangs up your joints (which are already usually wrecked in some way from fighting) and where there are so many other attributes to train.
It’s easy to say, “Fighters need to get stronger.” Sure, who can disagree?
In practice, it’s much more challenging.
Xen gets the award for “longest and most thought-provoking posts” in this forum. Nice work, man.
CW, nice to see you posting in this specific thread. Your Hammer Down Series really helped me when I began training BJJ/Muay Thai 2 years ago.
It’s still just theory for Xen how is anyone supposed take what he says seriously if he can’t back up logic with practice Waterbury can and yes read his articles it says he has been working with rickson and his son.
[quote]drewh wrote:
It’s still just theory for Xen how is anyone supposed take what he says seriously if he can’t back up logic with practice Waterbury can and yes read his articles it says he has been working with rickson and his son.[/quote]
Go back and do some reading. Xen’s spoke often about his training and some of his fights…
I’m not a strength coach, never claimed to be… I could name drop people I train(ed) with and people I’ve helped to train for fights, but it would just be dick waving at this point… I would never seek to gain internet points from someone (that I’ve seen post a handful of times) with their name because I was never their bonafide big swinging dick s&c coach, I just help out my friends.
There are plenty who have read my previous posts, know me personally, I’ve helped via pm, and others that are awaiting a response from Mr. Waterbury with interest who know my “resume”. A couple fellow Nibiru warriors, a guy who likes to tell people to google shit, a man who wears wigs, and a few fellow Nak Muay… and that is a very personal shout out to those reading.
All that said… Chad has a much better pedigree than me, he knows his shit, and has top notch clientle. Shit, read his site, he’s the official S&C coach for Rickson’s school. If you read that outloud make sure you say it with an echo because thats how fucking fresh that is… You’re correct in assuming I don’t know dick. Pretty much the first rule for reading anything on the internet. But please, attack the argument not the person. If something I said was in error, I’ll gladly discuss it with you. PM me or even make another thread if you’d like.
By the way, I’m pretty sure Chad never claimed to train Rickson’s son, very much less Rickson himself (whom by all accounts doesn’t lift “weights”, fyi). On Chad’s website it states that he’s the, “director of strength and conditioning at the Rickson Gracie International Jiu Jitsu Center in West Los Angeles”. And there are several that would dispute this claim.
Practical application is born from logic, and the very machinations of logic are found within practical application.*
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Point is… I’m still entitled to my opinion, but from the very beginning I stated that I was NEVER personally attacking Chad Waterbury, I was NEVER attacking his programs… they were just the one’s with the acronyms that I could remember (kudos to Chad for good marketing, i should have said EDT). MY ENTIRE PREMISE from that ONE FUCKING COMMENT was that generally, (random fucking # being 99% of the time) cookie cutter BODYBUILDING routines are NOT OPTIMAL for COMBAT SPORT ATHLETES.
And I stand by that.
- yes i just made that shit up lol.
This always gets me. When you have, say, a foot ball coach who trains top athletes, people say, “Oh, shit, those athletes do well IN SPITE of their training, not BECAUSE of it.” Why? Because some theory says otherwise.
There are lots of people training MMA guys who really have no business doing so. Does this mean I’d listen to them? Not really.
There are probably 50,000 personal trainers in this country. How many would I listen to?
Are you starting to see the point?
Yes, practical experience is relevant. I would never suggest otherwise. Theory has a role, too.
Xen’s intial post, by the evidence, evidenced practice. How?
I always see people talking about MMA guys needing to lift more weights. That’s a good theory. Then you get a guy who has some injury (pretty much every serious MMA fighter), and you realize that you can’t always just throw in max strength work. MMA guys are already beaten up, and heavy lifting is often abuse on top of abuse.
Interestingly, some would say that the initial “Hammer Down” serious was based too much on theory, and not nearly enough on practice. There was way too much lifting and conditioning sessions for an MMA fighter.
Most MMA fighters are training MMA/wrestling/boxing/BJJ five days a week. And that skills training MUST come first. How then do you just “sprinkle” 6-8 different workouts - including heavy weight training workouts - in? In theory, you can. In practice, you’d have a guy so beat up that he wouldn’t be able to train at all.
By the way, here is what I think is the “right” take on max strength work. I could go on and on, but I’ll keep it short and see if you feel me.
Each person has a sort of “base” strength he can readily obtain. By “base,” I mean that level of strength you get during the first 6-12 months of lifting. When you gain 50-100 pounds on your big lifts.
Generally, we start lifting, get to that “base” and then the struggle to get stronger happens. This struggle can be a lifetime thing. But fighters have other priorities than adding 5 pounds to their dead lift maxes.
I think every fighter should train to get that “base” strength. Most fighters do not do this, and thus benefit greatly from some max strength work. Take a guy who has never lifted, get him dead lifting, and he’ll be slamming his way out of triangles in a few months. This IS good.
But after this “base” is reached, max strength would should be extremely limited. Going to higher and higher maxes would mean that skills training would suffer. It would also make it more likely for an injury to occur.
In that sense, I think it’s right to say that fighters should train max strength. I think the limiting principle is what most S&C coaches/personal trainers miss.
When you have a hammer, everything you see is a nail. With S&C coaches/PTs, everything you see is a weight. But that’s wrong. You need weights up to a point. But you must balance everything - conditioning, skills training, injury prevention and recovery, and max strength. Thus, attention to max strength work should be limited.
[quote]drewh wrote:
Because he acts like an expert no one else on this forum does but Chad and i know he trains the gracie camp rickson etc… [/quote]
oh jeez, here we go with the Rickson stuff again…
[quote]drewh wrote:
It’s still just theory for Xen how is anyone supposed take what he says seriously if he can’t back up logic with practice Waterbury can and yes read his articles it says he has been working with rickson and his son.[/quote]
This is the same sort of logic that says that a good NFL football coach should have made it to the Super Bowl as a player, or that it’s a necessity that to be a good track and field coach, one must have held a world record at one point.
I understand wanting to see what kind of practical application a particular person may/may not have had, but if his assertions are ones that make sense (which Xen’s are), then the questioning is unnecessary.
I’m not sure if this is the right place, but it seems ok. Its Rich Franklins workout, sorry if everyone has seen it but it is worth watching twice.
Xen, the more of your posts I read the more impressed I am. You write with both clarity and humility; a good example for many on this site.
[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
Xen, the more of your posts I read the more impressed I am. You write with both clarity and humility; a good example for many on this site.[/quote]
Yeah, Xen knows his stuff. No doubt. He has a lot of experience in MMA and BJJ gyms - training 6 days a week or more.
What many do not realize is that some of us have or continue to train at very serious gyms with fighters who have recognizable names (though they are just training partners to us in the gym). We know how people actually train, and how it’s almost impossible for a guy who seriously trains MMA to do a lot of max strength work. Thinking people who train MMA seriously can add two days a week of max strength work is theory at best, folly at worst.
Those of you who barely make it to BJJ 2-3 times a week can of course do two days of heavy lifting. No problem.
I think the disagreement in this thread is that many commenting have no clue how fighters actually train.
Go do a couple of sessions of pad work and grappling three days in a row, and then see how 90% or more of your 1RM feels on your joints. Then do some wrestling the next day. See how long you actually last before your joints rip.
Is the answer to periodize your lifting? I used to think so. But when you’ve on the mat long enough (how many people posting about why max strength is so important are even BJJ blue belts), you realize that guys with 3 years of experience will almost always tool a guy with 2 years of experience - even if the other guy is stronger. That is because every hour on the mat counts.
An hour of training is not just an off spent off the mats; it’s many hours, as the use and abuse detracts from your overall training.
Hell, how much can Houston Alexander bench? I’ve heard 400+, and that would not surprise me.
How much good has that done him on the mat?
Now, of course, I do not think that max strength work should be ignored. I lift. It helps me. I just think that people here give it way too much credit. Once your BJJ starts getting good, and you really start tooling bigger and stronger guys, you start to “get it.” Yes, technique trumps strength. So that’s what you need to focus on.
No, this does not mean every 150 lb. guy can beat every 200 lb. guy. But if you brought a powerlifer into the gym with a legit small blue belt, his back would be taken and he’d be choked out so fast, you wouldn’t even know what you saw.
Yes, there are weight classes for a reason. And if I had the choice between having a strength deferential or a skills deferential within my weight class, I know what I would choose. It’s not even debatable.
Again, for the slow of reading: This does not mean a person should not lift heavy weights. It simply means that lifting has a cost. It wears your body down. For most, the cost is not worth the benefit.
I think there will always be these debates, and so this will be my last post. I’ve realized that those who train seriously do not need to be told what I’ve typed. And that those who do not train seriously will argue with me.
Why should I argue with someone who’s not training seriously? The person who isn’t spending dozens of hours a week in the gym really does not have a valid viewpoint. Just fairy tales and fantasies.
First off I don’t train, wish I lived somewhere that I could but I don’t. However, from what I’ve heard from a few people is that they will lift several days a week but only do one exercise each day and preferably before their fight training.
An example would be Bench Monday morning and have BJJ/Boxing in the evening. The people that have told me about this setup say that it allows them to lift heavy and really forces them to focus on technique later in the day cause they are still a little tired.
The fighter that was really adamant about this system would usually do Bench, Front Squat, Deadlift, or an Olympic lift. Just thought I’d throw that out there…hope it helps.
one lift a day Dan John style, i dig that.
The current Men’s Fitness has an article on Forrest Griffin and it’s a pretty accurate account of what a week of training for him looks like. Notice there isn’t a huge focus on strength training. It’s all tailored towards MMA-specific drills like sparring and technique.
First off huge props to Xen for taking the time give everyone so much quality intel. I would not be suprised if I’ve walked by you 1/2 a dozen times at Pan Ams and other tourneys. Same goes to Californialaw.
Heres my take on “maximal strength” or whatever. I will begin by tell you the story of my first day of BJJ.
At 6’5’’ 260 with a 380 bench ect ect I strolled into this particular academy ready to dominate anybody and everybody. Guess what happend the first time I rolled with the assistant instructor, a purple belt who was all of 165? If you guessed I got the snot choked out me, over and over again, you were correct.
No let me ask you all some questions:
- Ever watch BJ Pen workout?
- Have you googled Fedor’s workout? Or Nogueira’s? Or maybe tried to find out how Xande and Roger train?
- Watched the Roger Gracie Ron Waterman fight?
- Watch the Mitch Franklin workout on youtube, then watch the Franklin Silva fight?
My point in all of this is, why do people like Rickson (and if you havent watch the documentary Choke, put it on netflix now) Xande, Fedor, Marcello Garcia, Pe Da Pano, Saulo, Roger, Jacre, ect ect ect win? Is it because they have some secret strength training program, or is because they are really really fucking good at what they do? Followed by, why are the so good? Is it because Fedor does maximal strength training and one rep max on bench, or because he trains non-stop?
Personal question to you all: When you lose on the mat or in the ring or whatever, how often can you honestly, and I mean honestly say “I only lost because that guy was stronger then me?” When I lose its because they are better then me, or because Ive gassed from lack of conditioning.
Californialaw put it perfectly: “Yes, there are weight classes for a reason. And if I had the choice between having a strength deferential or a skills deferential within my weight class, I know what I would choose. It’s not even debatable.”
To end this debate: Worry about additional lifing, oh I don’t know, when you get your Purple belt. Until then get on the mat and train. Every day, until your gi so soaked with your sweat you could use it to wash your car after a trip through the desert.
+1, excellent post
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
I think the disagreement in this thread is that many commenting have no clue how fighters actually train.
Go do a couple of sessions of pad work and grappling three days in a row, and then see how 90% or more of your 1RM feels on your joints. Then do some wrestling the next day. See how long you actually last before your joints rip.
[/quote]
My rotator cuffs are coming back. Only a year or so of rehab this time. But I’ve learned to be more careful with the lifting and think I’ll get started up again this January.
Though sprints, especially up stairs can do things for your system. You just have to avoid running down stairs which can ruin your knees.
[quote]Elaikases wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
My rotator cuffs are coming back. Only a year or so of rehab this time. But I’ve learned to be more careful with the lifting and think I’ll get started up again this January.
Though sprints, especially up stairs can do things for your system. You just have to avoid running down stairs which can ruin your knees.
[/quote]
Elaikases,
I did my rotator cuff and that injury is no joke. My successful approach to getting back into lifting:
Lots of over head lunges/squats with a rubber band, turkish get ups, random cable excercies on one foot, and light one arm snatches. I also only do push ups on gymnastic rings to work my chest, with some occasional pullovers.