How Many Fighters Have a Grasp on S&C?

Training
41

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:
Maybe they are not as big as arnold because they do not have godly genetics, don’t inject massive amounts of roids from 15 years of age, don’t have time to train , money to waffle down perfect diet food etc etc.

Maybe Arnold could of got way bigger if he had worked out another way, heck BJ penn was a prodigy and multiple belt champ and mundial winner, guess his diet of cheeseburgers and workouts were the best thing, becuase he is better than most at bjj, so barely doing cardio and eating crap must be the best way, according to your logic?[/quote]

It’s very hard to understand what you are talking about

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I will pretend this is be kind to newb week, even though I am a newb myself cough

here is the deal with S&C work while training for wrestling/judo/boxing mma-

keep doing what your doing til it stops working.
its really easy.
do what ever you like - til it impacts your recovery work , skill work etc

here is the other fact no one wants to admit its two fold
its easier to get stronger or faster ( relatively easier)

then getting better at the skill part of your sport.

and its a lot easier for arm chair types to compare bench press, 40 yard dash time , broad jump or in your case,
22 reps of cable flies then it is to figure out how good a fighter they are not.

lifting x is an easier bench mark for most to wrap their heads around
vs how good - MMA guy is as being an MMA guy
see how I broke that language down in nice digestible chunks.

about the snap shot or snippets of training -lots of things in training for a fight
are boring as fuck.
like pushups , skipping rope, sprints , stairs hitting a bag, endless drills.
It doesnt make for ‘good’ articles or ‘good’ TV

but the things that some fighters might do - while peaking-
like plyos , jumping or dumb shit that sean sherk does-
look a hell of allot more interesting.

43

If Arnold could have been way bigger then there would be someone way bigger than Arnold. Yes, he may have great genes and chemical enhancement, but he’s hardly the only one. Neither of those things are sufficient to be one of the best in the world. You know what he didn’t do though? He didn’t make fucking excuses like you seem to be doing.

BJ Penn may have eaten crap, but he won. A lot. Whatever he was doing worked for him. Would you tell him to go on a super-strict diet, put him on a grinding cardio program, and generally make him hate his life when what he was doing was working? Motherfucker you just gave an example of a world champion who spent all his time rolling instead of in the weight room, and you still persist in believing that the exact rep count you use is somehow going to sink someone’s pro career?

Fuck it. Don’t listen to the fighters here. Don’t listen to the trainers. Don’t listen to Jim Motherfucking Wendler Official Website | Jim Wendler - Elite Powerlifter & Strength Coach . We must all not know what we’re talking about when we say that for a fighter strength training is GPP, and GPP should be a low priority in your training schedule.

Call me when you KO someone in a sanctioned fight.

44

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
If Arnold could have been way bigger then there would be someone way bigger than Arnold. Yes, he may have great genes and chemical enhancement, but he’s hardly the only one. Neither of those things are sufficient to be one of the best in the world. You know what he didn’t do though? He didn’t make fucking excuses like you seem to be doing.

BJ Penn may have eaten crap, but he won. A lot. Whatever he was doing worked for him. Would you tell him to go on a super-strict diet, put him on a grinding cardio program, and generally make him hate his life when what he was doing was working? Motherfucker you just gave an example of a world champion who spent all his time rolling instead of in the weight room, and you still persist in believing that the exact rep count you use is somehow going to sink someone’s pro career?

Fuck it. Don’t listen to the fighters here. Don’t listen to the trainers. Don’t listen to Jim Motherfucking Wendler Official Website | Jim Wendler - Elite Powerlifter & Strength Coach . We must all not know what we’re talking about when we say that for a fighter strength training is GPP, and GPP should be a low priority in your training schedule.

Call me when you KO someone in a sanctioned fight. [/quote]

Arnold is tiny compared to todays freaks, look how they train/arnold trained.

But again I am not saying I know more than fighters here, or that I could ever compete, I am saying that if a system is superior there should be recordable evidence, wether it is a strength program, one for flexibility etc.

Anyway, obviously I am going to get I am a better fighter than you so stfu so I will take my lame ass off to bed.

:slight_smile:

What BJ did did not work for him, he was awesome despite not working out and eating shit, he could of been a far better athlete.

It drives me crazy because if i had one ounce of his talent i would fucking dedicate my whole being to becoming the best i could be.

45

Bonnotgang - Devildog_jim’s posts more or less say everything a fighter needs to know about weight training, and its relative importance in a competitive fighter’s program. There really isnt much more to be said here

46

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
Bonnotgang - Devildog_jim’s posts more or less say everything a fighter needs to know about weight training, and its relative importance in a competitive fighter’s program. There really isnt much more to be said here[/quote]

Yea. It’s more or less been worn out.

As one of my good friends - who also happens to be a pro boxer of note - “Documentation beats conversation.”

These dudes got the documentation that it worked FOR THEM, so all the conversation around it is a waste of time.

47

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:

But again I am not saying I know more than fighters here, or that I could ever compete, I am saying that if a system is superior there should be recordable evidence, wether it is a strength program, one for flexibility etc. [/quote]

In combat sports there is. Wins/Losses. You can’t do any better in a fight than winning.

Actually my point was “there are a lot of better fighters than you, and trainers, who all seem to think you’re a moron. Enough that we can call it a professional consensus.”

Motherfucker, he was a world champion in both BJJ and the UFC, in two weight classes. I’m not sure what you mean by “did not work for him,” you can’t get much better than that. And I don’t even like him.

Instead you wank off on internet forums about what he should do, when you could be making the most of your talent, genetics, and resources.

I know nothing about your body, your personal training, or your circumstances in life. But just from your attitude in this thread I can tell you that you will never be great. Too many excuses. Even your mma fanboy posts are whiny excuses for why you can’t do it.

48

Ignore this Fool OP

he is a 19 yo kid who has trained for about a minute

Devildog Jim- great work.

thank you

49

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:

In combat sports there is. Wins/Losses. You can’t do any better in a fight than winning.
[/quote]

This reminds me of an argument I had a couple years ago - and I think it’s still in the “How I Train” sticky - about Ali versus Foreman. Guy kept telling me that Foreman was a better fighter based on common opponents.

I kept saying, “But they fought. And not only did Ali win, he knocked him out. It was cut and dried.”

That line of argument, and the fact that the two fighters met and Ali destroyed him, meant nothing to this guy.

You can’t argue with stupid. You just can’t. It’s not possible.

But if he ate right, could he have won in SEVEN weight classes???

Clearly u dOnTT nOw yeR shitttt LOLZZZzzz

50

LOL the critiscm for BJ’s work outs where there because find any other area you could say this guy is bad. Find me one where his game needed work? They have to say something and this is what they went with for well he needs work here.

All the sudden it turns into BJ doesnt train hard. Fuck that you dont push GSP like he did nor beat 170lb fighters when your trying to get bigger to fight at that weight. As an old aging fighter he has chances to beat Jon Fitch. A top ten 170lb guy. He almost beat Machida who is a 205er. The guy could flat out fight.

Also I think he is a dick and lost alot of respect for him with the way he went about the second GSP fight. That was just bad form.

Also Irish I will always love Fraiser and hate Ali. Its just how life goes.

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LOL the critiscm for BJ’s work outs where there because find any other area you could say this guy is bad. Find me one where his game needed work? They have to say something and this is what they went with for well he needs work here.

All the sudden it turns into BJ doesnt train hard. Fuck that you dont push GSP like he did nor beat 170lb fighters when your trying to get bigger to fight at that weight. As an old aging fighter he has chances to beat Jon Fitch. A top ten 170lb guy. He almost beat Machida who is a 205er. The guy could flat out fight.

Also I think he is a dick and lost alot of respect for him with the way he went about the second GSP fight. That was just bad form.

Also Irish I will always love Fraiser and hate Ali. Its just how life goes.

52

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:
Maybe they are not as big as arnold because they do not have godly genetics, don’t inject massive amounts of roids from 15 years of age, don’t have time to train , money to waffle down perfect diet food etc etc.

Maybe Arnold could of got way bigger if he had worked out another way, heck BJ penn was a prodigy and multiple belt champ and mundial winner, guess his diet of cheeseburgers and workouts were the best thing, becuase he is better than most at bjj, so barely doing cardio and eating crap must be the best way, according to your logic?[/quote]

They are not as big as Arnold because they are not as good at BODYBUILDING. I would listen to the guy with the results, before I listen to the smaller “trainer” writing a thesis on why single leg squats are scientifically more effective, or applicable blah blah blah.

BJ’s diet may very well be helping him from a mental standpoint. Perhaps he trains harder, smarter and longer when he allows himself to eat junk food.

I used to be one of those guys that would hit the gym 4-5 times a week while training BJJ. Now I do some calisthenics/sprinting every morning, and lift once (deadlift, OHP). I also train BJJ more often. As a result, I’m MUCH better than I was a year ago.

What’s my point? S&C isn’t as important, or scientific, as you seem to think dude. You have GSP out there, one of the most well conditioned athletes in this sport, saying his S&C regimen isn’t the reason he never gasses and is so explosive. Indeed, according to his former S&C guy Jon Chaimberg, Georges had trouble doing 8 chinups after he lost to Serra. You’d never know it looking at the way he fought.

So if your guy is doing sets of 22, well, awesome. Maybe it work for him. I myself do one off sets of 30 dips and it’s definitely made a difference as far as strength endurance and mobility for BJJ. I wouldn’t have thought that back when I was lifting on an Upper-Lower split.

53

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:

What BJ did did not work for him, he was awesome despite not working out and eating shit, he could of been a far better athlete.
[/quote]

This annoys the hell out of me. What about his diet implies that he ate like shit? Soy milk has never been the key to producing the best athletes in the world.

54

To address the question posed in the title: “How many fighters have a grasp on S & C?”

It has been my experience that most really high level athletes have only the most rudimentary grasp on S & C (and nutrition for that matter). On the nutrition side, while working in a supplement store, I had a National Team rower come in and ask me for a some low carb protein bars. When I asked him why he wanted low carb he said “they’re better aren’t they?”

We talked about the rest of his diet and of course the low carb thing made no sense when your “real” food is 9000+ cals/day and mostly carbs. My point is he had no idea and was just going by what he had heard somewhere. Most of the more elite athletes I have had the chance to talk with have a similarly half assed understanding of S & C and yet they perform at the highest levels. The just bust their asses and do what their coaches tell them and, go figure, they win.

My point is, this guy knew how to row. He rowed 21x/week. He didn’t really know (or care) about anything else. I guarantee he did not know the ideal rep range to induce hypertrophy in fast twitch muscle fibres. He just knew how to row and how to work. His coaches, some of the best in the world, thought that was good enough. Probably because when it comes to getting to the podium, nothing else really matters.

55

[quote]Airtruth wrote:

[quote]BonnotGang wrote:

What BJ did did not work for him, he was awesome despite not working out and eating shit, he could of been a far better athlete.
[/quote]

This annoys the hell out of me. What about his diet implies that he ate like shit? Soy milk has never been the key to producing the best athletes in the world.[/quote]

Erm in his book he states he eate crap, would not train that hard etc etc

56

Hmmm…BJ’s nickname is “The Prodigy” for a reason.

57

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Hmmm…BJ’s nickname is “The Prodigy” for a reason. [/quote]
Agreed.

But (and I’m not agreeing with Bonnot at all. At… all…) but wasn’t BJ frequently criticized for gassing out in several fights? That would be the one, and only one, leg to stand on that a “better” conditioning program might have made him an even “better” or more effective/dangerous fighter.

Though, at some point, it’s kinda like debating if Tera Patrick was hotter before or after her implants. You can only improve awesomeness oh-so-much.

Unrelated P.S. - Congrats on the new princess, Boss man. :wink:

58

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Hmmm…BJ’s nickname is “The Prodigy” for a reason. [/quote]
Agreed.

But (and I’m not agreeing with Bonnot at all. At… all…) but wasn’t BJ frequently criticized for gassing out in several fights? That would be the one, and only one, leg to stand on that a “better” conditioning program might have made him an even “better” or more effective/dangerous fighter.

Though, at some point, it’s kinda like debating if Tera Patrick was hotter before or after her implants. You can only improve awesomeness oh-so-much.

Unrelated P.S. - Congrats on the new princess, Boss man. ;)[/quote]

Thanks bro. Very proud fella.

Oh…and I agree that BJ’s conditioning(maybe diet…but Hawaiian food is the bomb…can’t blame him)…could have been the area to make him more dangerous. I even agree with BonnetGangster in that aspect. But you recognize what I’m focusing on(and I’m sure you see it in your field)…dude was just a freak. You can’t train someone to use their legs like extra arms…lol.

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[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Thanks bro. Very proud fella.

Oh…and I agree that BJ’s conditioning(maybe diet…but Hawaiian food is the bomb…can’t blame him)…could have been the area to make him more dangerous. I even agree with BonnetGangster in that aspect. But you recognize what I’m focusing on(and I’m sure you see it in your field)…dude was just a freak. You can’t train someone to use their legs like extra arms…lol.[/quote]
Yep, for sure. When several aspects of a fighter’s game are at a redonkulous level, they can certainly “get away with” having one or two traits that are on par with mere mortals.

60

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Hmmm…BJ’s nickname is “The Prodigy” for a reason. [/quote]
Agreed.

But (and I’m not agreeing with Bonnot at all. At… all…) but wasn’t BJ frequently criticized for gassing out in several fights? That would be the one, and only one, leg to stand on that a “better” conditioning program might have made him an even “better” or more effective/dangerous fighter.

Though, at some point, it’s kinda like debating if Tera Patrick was hotter before or after her implants. You can only improve awesomeness oh-so-much.

Unrelated P.S. - Congrats on the new princess, Boss man. ;)[/quote]

Thanks bro. Very proud fella.

Oh…and I agree that BJ’s conditioning(maybe diet…but Hawaiian food is the bomb…can’t blame him)…could have been the area to make him more dangerous. I even agree with BonnetGangster in that aspect. But you recognize what I’m focusing on(and I’m sure you see it in your field)…dude was just a freak. You can’t train someone to use their legs like extra arms…lol.

[/quote]

This is an execllent point that I feel like people are skipping over in this thread. He was a BJJ world champion in under 3 years of training. What he did or didn’t do isn’t really all that relevant to the rest of us unwashed jackasses, because he clearly had something special about him. It’s not like him “spending all his time rollig” is what made him champion; he picked apart guys with a lifetime spent rolling.

Winning shouldn’t be the only thing that matters to a fighter. If that were the case then Jon Fitch should be considered a much better fighter than BJ (16-8 vs 23-4). What’s behind the result is pretty important (who you foght, what decided the outcome). And behind BJs results you see a fighter that had a ton of upside, but lacked something in his game when it came to strength and endurance.

Obviously, S&C is GPP to fighters (or any other skill sport), but that doesn’t mean that improving it won’t help make you better at your sport, especially if it is the weakest part of your game. How much of a priority it should have depends on what your strengths and weaknesses are, and whether you like to spend time doing what you’re already good at or working on the stuff you suck at.