Stronghold and I both did Zerchers as a main lift this week. We both do heavy curls regularly. We also did that other zercher thing rrjc and push were talking about earlier twice this week. Our biceps haven’t torn yet. Maybe its a delayed thing? Like tomorrow we’ll both wake up and our arms will be gone?
[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
Stronghold and I both did Zerchers as a main lift this week. We both do heavy curls regularly. We also did that other zercher thing rrjc and push were talking about earlier twice this week. Our biceps haven’t torn yet. Maybe its a delayed thing? Like tomorrow we’ll both wake up and our arms will be gone?[/quote]
Doubtful…but since you seem to have missed the 4 or 5 pages I went into the AMOUNT OF WEIGHT USED…I guess I have to rewrite all of that…again. That was why a specific weight range was given…one where more would be prone to see a tear from the lift itself.
Now, I don’t mean to be sharp or even sarcastic with you…but this has been written so many times in this thread that the only way someone could miss it is if they weren’t listening to any of it to start with.
You see, I train biceps tonight. I use a weight that by itself could cause a tear. That is why someone at that stage has to be careful of their whole routine. Something like doing back the day right before biceps could set you up…when you are curling in excess of 85lbs in one hand.
[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
Stronghold and I both did Zerchers as a main lift this week. We both do heavy curls regularly. We also did that other zercher thing rrjc and push were talking about earlier twice this week. Our biceps haven’t torn yet. Maybe its a delayed thing? Like tomorrow we’ll both wake up and our arms will be gone?[/quote]
No, like the dim-mok death touch, you never know when you’re gonna tear a bicep, but if it does happen, you know it was cause of those damn zerchers.
I think we can all agree now that zerchers have a place in EVERYONE’S training routine. With that said, I’ve been a guinea pig of sorts with the zercher. I’ve tried every variation i’ve seen and have done. From my own experience certain variations are better than others. I first started with zerchers off pins with a starting position above parallel. looking back, these were pretty much just an ego lift much like rack pulls above the knee. you can get strong at these but i don’t feel they helped my deadlift or squat much.
from my own exeperience the best variations are zercher squats where you lift the bar out of hooks, step back and then squat as low as you can go while also keeping the chest high. a common mistake is to allow the chest to drop and the hips to rise as the back rounds. there are two variations of this that i’ve done to compliment either the deadlift or the squat.
the variation to compliment the squat is done with a slightly wider than shoulder width stance. i then lower down until my forearms are resting on my thighs. i pause slightly then force the hips forward keeping the chest high and back straight. but at the top i don’t lockout the knees. i keep constant tension on the quads.
the other variation compliments the deadlift, paritcularly the sumo in my opinion. i take a very wide stance, toes pointed out. i drop ATG allowing my forearms to drop between my knees. at this point the bar is actually resting on my thighs. my knees are forced out as far as possible while my chest is still high and my back is in a neutral or slightly arched position. i typically do these with a very long pause to remove the stretch reflex. i then reverse the motion by forcing the knees out really hard and forcing the hips forward until i’m standing erect.
Meat, interesting that you mention the zerchers from pins. I do them with a slightly-wider than shoulder width stance and the pins set so that I’m right at or maybe a little above parallel and I feel they’ve really contributed to my pull. I pull sumo though, so I’m sure that’s a confounding factor.
Actually PX I read all nineteen pages. I just happen to give zero fucks about how much the dumbbells you curl weigh, how many times you curled them, when you last curled them, or even what your favorite toothpaste is.
rrjc, I’ll see your dim mok death touch and raise you that tai chi move from Hot Rod that makes grown men crap their pants…and apparently doesn’t exist on youtube…
On topic: Anyone do zerchers both with the harness and without? It seems that there is a pretty big difference between the two for me (though I haven’t done the harness ones in for.ev.er. so its not the best to compare I suppose). Anyone else notice this?
[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
Actually PX I read all nineteen pages. I just happen to give zero fucks about how much the dumbbells you curl weigh, how many times you curled them, when you last curled them, or even what your favorite toothpaste is.
rrjc, I’ll see your dim mok death touch and raise you that tai chi move from Hot Rod that makes grown men crap their pants…and apparently doesn’t exist on youtube…[/quote]
Then why did you make a comment to me at all?
Trust me, I now feel the exact same about you…and I had no ill will to you at all before this.
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
the other variation compliments the deadlift, paritcularly the sumo in my opinion. i take a very wide stance, toes pointed out. i drop ATG allowing my forearms to drop between my knees. at this point the bar is actually resting on my thighs. my knees are forced out as far as possible while my chest is still high and my back is in a neutral or slightly arched position. i typically do these with a very long pause to remove the stretch reflex. i then reverse the motion by forcing the knees out really hard and forcing the hips forward until i’m standing erect.
[/quote]
How long of a pause are we talking about?
If the bar’s resting on your thighs and thus removing the tension, wouldn’t that act in a similar fashion to how a box would act in a box squat?
Kinda like doing a zercher off the pins from ‘resting on the thigh’ height from a dead stop, no?
Just trying to get a better idea of how you do them. I’ll look around your youtube channel to see if I can find a video since I can’t remember what page your original post in this thread was haha.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Meat, interesting that you mention the zerchers from pins. I do them with a slightly-wider than shoulder width stance and the pins set so that I’m right at or maybe a little above parallel and I feel they’ve really contributed to my pull. I pull sumo though, so I’m sure that’s a confounding factor.[/quote]
i was speaking purely from my own personal experience. i’m sure part of my problem was i got too caught up with how much weight i was lifting. IMO, they are a much better assistance exercise than a straight up ME. i’m sure my form went to shit with the heavier weight. now i concentrate on keeping the chest high and not letting my arms drop, much like in a front squat. i’m sure your form on the zerchers from pins is much better than mine was:)
have you tried them ATG with a pause at the bottom? if not, they are awesome. for my own use i keep the weight fairly light now and go for more reps while keeping my form as perfect as possible.
i’m a firm believer that everything works for someone. it’s just a matter of finding what works for you.
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
???
I could give a shit what you think about zerchers…
please show me where I have debated with you on this thread about the OP. not once. I think it is just a funny and entertaining thread…you do too…otherwise you would not have wasted some much of your valuable time you could have been doing a root canal posting in this “stupid thread”
you love this shit, everybody knows it, and the fact that there are a few guys who are now willing to go on endless debates with you about whatever is even more satisfying to you.
do you really think that anybody here believes you really hate this site and all the “stupid worthless threads” when you spend so much of your time on this site participating in them???
haha.
I used to have an issue with you…now I just think you are funny…
tweaking you is just pure entertainment at this point.
thing is, I do not really feel like any of this really bothers you…you enjoy internet bickering.
I do too sometimes…but not nearly as much as you.
I have been on the site nearly as long as you and compare our number of posts.
I know you will have to respond to this as you always have to have the last word…
so go ahead and do it…
but after that if you want to discuss any “issues” with me, do it via PM or even better,
let me know if you are ever in northern cali…and we can talk in person.
I bet you are not as big of an asshole as you try to make yourself out to be and I bet you will find out I am a pretty decent guy too.
[/quote]
I think this is a hilarious post.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
[quote]buckeye girl wrote:
Actually PX I read all nineteen pages. I just happen to give zero fucks about how much the dumbbells you curl weigh, how many times you curled them, when you last curled them, or even what your favorite toothpaste is.
rrjc, I’ll see your dim mok death touch and raise you that tai chi move from Hot Rod that makes grown men crap their pants…and apparently doesn’t exist on youtube…[/quote]
Then why did you make a comment to me at all?
Trust me, I now feel the exact same about you…and I had no ill will to you at all before this.[/quote]
I must have missed the part where I was addressing you in my original post.
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Meat, interesting that you mention the zerchers from pins. I do them with a slightly-wider than shoulder width stance and the pins set so that I’m right at or maybe a little above parallel and I feel they’ve really contributed to my pull. I pull sumo though, so I’m sure that’s a confounding factor.[/quote]
i was speaking purely from my own personal experience. i’m sure part of my problem was i got too caught up with how much weight i was lifting. IMO, they are a much better assistance exercise than a straight up ME. i’m sure my form went to shit with the heavier weight. now i concentrate on keeping the chest high and not letting my arms drop, much like in a front squat. i’m sure your form on the zerchers from pins is much better than mine was:)
have you tried them ATG with a pause at the bottom? if not, they are awesome. for my own use i keep the weight fairly light now and go for more reps while keeping my form as perfect as possible.
i’m a firm believer that everything works for someone. it’s just a matter of finding what works for you.
[/quote]
Haha, I don’t know about my form being great or anything. I just know they do horrible, awful things to my upper back trying to stabilize that weight up high with these sort arms.
I’ll have to give the deep zercher squats a try sometime. I can imagine that with my t-rex arms, the ROM on those would be absolutely retarded, haha.
Am I mistaken, or is thread morphing into something productive?
I’ll have to look back on my training log…I am pretty sure that I have done a heavy back day which included chins with 50-100lbs added, and db rows 150-175lb
and the next day I have done a power clean workout, up to 150kg,
then the next day done barbell curls with upwards of 60-80kg.
and I have torn a biceps before, more specifically, I have had 3 partial tears of my right biceps brachii in my lifetime.
I have also torn just about everything else.
In fact, I have at least 3 surgeries that need to happen in the next 12 months or so (bilateral carpal tunnel release, and left torn knee meniscus repair)
Point is, X being the flaming douchebag-troll that he is aside, I actually agree with him as far as playing it safe.
I know he is probably a bit younger than me, but I bet when he is 43 he is going to feel a lot better than I do now because he spent more time training safe with machines and dumbbells and such.
I feel like I have been hit by a truck every morning when I get up.
but, with my limited genetics (short chubby guy), as meager as my accomplishments in a variety of strength sports were, I could not have gotten there by doing only “safe” movements.
to this day…the majority of my workouts stop just shy of injury…
my wife and friends think I have some sort of mental disability, where I am unable to train unless I leave a piece of me on the gym floor when I am done.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Meat, interesting that you mention the zerchers from pins. I do them with a slightly-wider than shoulder width stance and the pins set so that I’m right at or maybe a little above parallel and I feel they’ve really contributed to my pull. I pull sumo though, so I’m sure that’s a confounding factor.[/quote]
i was speaking purely from my own personal experience. i’m sure part of my problem was i got too caught up with how much weight i was lifting. IMO, they are a much better assistance exercise than a straight up ME. i’m sure my form went to shit with the heavier weight. now i concentrate on keeping the chest high and not letting my arms drop, much like in a front squat. i’m sure your form on the zerchers from pins is much better than mine was:)
have you tried them ATG with a pause at the bottom? if not, they are awesome. for my own use i keep the weight fairly light now and go for more reps while keeping my form as perfect as possible.
i’m a firm believer that everything works for someone. it’s just a matter of finding what works for you.
[/quote]
Haha, I don’t know about my form being great or anything. I just know they do horrible, awful things to my upper back trying to stabilize that weight up high with these sort arms.
I’ll have to give the deep zercher squats a try sometime. I can imagine that with my t-rex arms, the ROM on those would be absolutely retarded, haha.
Am I mistaken, or is thread morphing into something productive?[/quote]
i think the key there is that you are stablizing the weight. i feel that when i did them i was rounding my back too much and basically just doing an ego lift trying to lift as much weight as possible.
as for the t-rex arms, they can’t be any worse than mine. that was me on the losing end of King Kong in the most recent remake.
and…that’s why i posted what i did. this thread has potential without all the rest of the crap.
IMO, the best lifts one can do are ones that require the most muscle groups. regardless of whether or not your goal is hypertrophy or strength, multijoint exercises get the most bang for your buck and should i dare say are also functional.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Meat, interesting that you mention the zerchers from pins. I do them with a slightly-wider than shoulder width stance and the pins set so that I’m right at or maybe a little above parallel and I feel they’ve really contributed to my pull. I pull sumo though, so I’m sure that’s a confounding factor.[/quote]
i was speaking purely from my own personal experience. i’m sure part of my problem was i got too caught up with how much weight i was lifting. IMO, they are a much better assistance exercise than a straight up ME. i’m sure my form went to shit with the heavier weight. now i concentrate on keeping the chest high and not letting my arms drop, much like in a front squat. i’m sure your form on the zerchers from pins is much better than mine was:)
have you tried them ATG with a pause at the bottom? if not, they are awesome. for my own use i keep the weight fairly light now and go for more reps while keeping my form as perfect as possible.
i’m a firm believer that everything works for someone. it’s just a matter of finding what works for you.
[/quote]
Haha, I don’t know about my form being great or anything. I just know they do horrible, awful things to my upper back trying to stabilize that weight up high with these sort arms.
I’ll have to give the deep zercher squats a try sometime. I can imagine that with my t-rex arms, the ROM on those would be absolutely retarded, haha.
Am I mistaken, or is thread morphing into something productive?[/quote]
Dude, don’t say that, you’ll jinx the thread and conjure another shit-storm.
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
I’ll have to look back on my training log…I am pretty sure that I have done a heavy back day which included chins with 50-100lbs added, and db rows 150-175lb
and the next day I have done a power clean workout, up to 150kg,
then the next day done barbell curls with upwards of 60-80kg.
and I have torn a biceps before, more specifically, I have had 3 partial tears of my right biceps brachii in my lifetime.
I have also torn just about everything else.
In fact, I have at least 3 surgeries that need to happen in the next 12 months or so (bilateral carpal tunnel release, and left torn knee meniscus repair)
Point is, X being the flaming douchebag-troll that he is aside, I actually agree with him as far as playing it safe.
I know he is probably a bit younger than me, but I bet when he is 43 he is going to feel a lot better than I do now because he spent more time training safe with machines and dumbbells and such.
I feel like I have been hit by a truck every morning when I get up.
but, with my limited genetics (short chubby guy), as meager as my accomplishments in a variety of strength sports were, I could not have gotten there by doing only “safe” movements.
to this day…the majority of my workouts stop just shy of injury…
my wife and friends think I have some sort of mental disability, where I am unable to train unless I leave a piece of me on the gym floor when I am done. [/quote]
Dude, you can’t possibly compare your injuries with his lack of injuries - like you said, you were a strength sport athlete - you did shit like squats, DLs, cleans - X (and many bodybuilders) almost never do squats and DL’s, basically the two most physically taxing movements you can do.
Your training was BASED AROUND spinal loaded, heavy ass movements. X (and many bodybuilders) avoid that.
I’d bet a large sum of money that if you took the absolute best PLer in the world and compared his list of injuries with the best BBer in the world, the PLers would be significantly larger. Same with comparing a strongman competitor’s injuries to a BBer’s injuries. I’d even say the same about an oly lifter’s injuries being more than an equally competitive (at their respective sports, obviously).
I know you get this already, as your 'I couldn’t have done this without doing those “safe” lifts" I’m just saying it’s like comparing apples to a seared steak, lol.
I think the overall trend in PLing is leaning towards your “don’t take unnecessary risk” recently. We’re seeing many PLers start to give a shit about mobility, prehab/rehab work, keeping BF levels in check, neoprene knee/elbow sleeves, etc… I, for one, think it’s a good thing.
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
the other variation compliments the deadlift, paritcularly the sumo in my opinion. i take a very wide stance, toes pointed out. i drop ATG allowing my forearms to drop between my knees. at this point the bar is actually resting on my thighs. my knees are forced out as far as possible while my chest is still high and my back is in a neutral or slightly arched position. i typically do these with a very long pause to remove the stretch reflex. i then reverse the motion by forcing the knees out really hard and forcing the hips forward until i’m standing erect.
[/quote]
How long of a pause are we talking about?
If the bar’s resting on your thighs and thus removing the tension, wouldn’t that act in a similar fashion to how a box would act in a box squat?
Kinda like doing a zercher off the pins from ‘resting on the thigh’ height from a dead stop, no?
Just trying to get a better idea of how you do them. I’ll look around your youtube channel to see if I can find a video since I can’t remember what page your original post in this thread was haha.[/quote]
at the bottom when i’m using a wide stance and the bar is on my thighs the weight is definitely off my arms but since there’s no box under me it’s a lot like a paused front squat. at that part of the lift i’m removing the stretch reflex from hamstrings. they are in no way like a box squat:) there’s nothing supporting and you still have to stablize everything down there.
i don’t think you will find a vid of the wide stance ones. i have one of the more narrow stance though. i actually just posted it in the brotherhood of iron thread. actually that is what promted me to post this info. in here.
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
i think the key there is that you are stablizing the weight. i feel that when i did them i was rounding my back too much and basically just doing an ego lift trying to lift as much weight as possible.
as for the t-rex arms, they can’t be any worse than mine. that was me on the losing end of King Kong in the most recent remake.
and…that’s why i posted what i did. this thread has potential without all the rest of the crap.
IMO, the best lifts one can do are ones that require the most muscle groups. regardless of whether or not your goal is hypertrophy or strength, multijoint exercises get the most bang for your buck and should i dare say are also functional. [/quote]
We should start a club, haha.
My girlfriend (Buckeye) is getting her MAT and was getting ready to go out earlier today and we were discussing the length of her skirt. She said it wouldn’t be school appropriate since it didn’t pass the “fingertip test” (I know you’re a PE teacher so you have to be familiar with this, I’m sure). I jokingly held my arms down at my sides, and I kid you not, shorts would be able to pass the “fingertip test” for me and still leave my wedding tackle hanging out the leg. My arms are that short, LOL.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
[quote]maraudermeat wrote:
i think the key there is that you are stablizing the weight. i feel that when i did them i was rounding my back too much and basically just doing an ego lift trying to lift as much weight as possible.
as for the t-rex arms, they can’t be any worse than mine. that was me on the losing end of King Kong in the most recent remake.
and…that’s why i posted what i did. this thread has potential without all the rest of the crap.
IMO, the best lifts one can do are ones that require the most muscle groups. regardless of whether or not your goal is hypertrophy or strength, multijoint exercises get the most bang for your buck and should i dare say are also functional. [/quote]
We should start a club, haha.
My girlfriend (Buckeye) is getting her MAT and was getting ready to go out earlier today and we were discussing the length of her skirt. She said it wouldn’t be school appropriate since it didn’t pass the “fingertip test” (I know you’re a PE teacher so you have to be familiar with this, I’m sure). I jokingly held my arms down at my sides, and I kid you not, shorts would be able to pass the “fingertip test” for me and still leave my wedding tackle hanging out the leg. My arms are that short, LOL.[/quote]
either you have really short arms or a really long babies arm my friend.
as for the school appropriate attire, i think a lot of girls these days in the public schools have really short arms. i’m sure that’s what it is.
[quote]rrjc5488 wrote:
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
I’ll have to look back on my training log…I am pretty sure that I have done a heavy back day which included chins with 50-100lbs added, and db rows 150-175lb
and the next day I have done a power clean workout, up to 150kg,
then the next day done barbell curls with upwards of 60-80kg.
and I have torn a biceps before, more specifically, I have had 3 partial tears of my right biceps brachii in my lifetime.
I have also torn just about everything else.
In fact, I have at least 3 surgeries that need to happen in the next 12 months or so (bilateral carpal tunnel release, and left torn knee meniscus repair)
Point is, X being the flaming douchebag-troll that he is aside, I actually agree with him as far as playing it safe.
I know he is probably a bit younger than me, but I bet when he is 43 he is going to feel a lot better than I do now because he spent more time training safe with machines and dumbbells and such.
I feel like I have been hit by a truck every morning when I get up.
but, with my limited genetics (short chubby guy), as meager as my accomplishments in a variety of strength sports were, I could not have gotten there by doing only “safe” movements.
to this day…the majority of my workouts stop just shy of injury…
my wife and friends think I have some sort of mental disability, where I am unable to train unless I leave a piece of me on the gym floor when I am done. [/quote]
Dude, you can’t possibly compare your injuries with his lack of injuries - like you said, you were a strength sport athlete - you did shit like squats, DLs, cleans - X (and many bodybuilders) almost never do squats and DL’s, basically the two most physically taxing movements you can do.
Your training was BASED AROUND spinal loaded, heavy ass movements. X (and many bodybuilders) avoid that.
I’d bet a large sum of money that if you took the absolute best PLer in the world and compared his list of injuries with the best BBer in the world, the PLers would be significantly larger. Same with comparing a strongman competitor’s injuries to a BBer’s injuries. I’d even say the same about an oly lifter’s injuries being more than an equally competitive (at their respective sports, obviously).
I know you get this already, as your 'I couldn’t have done this without doing those “safe” lifts" I’m just saying it’s like comparing apples to a seared steak, lol.
I think the overall trend in PLing is leaning towards your “don’t take unnecessary risk” recently. We’re seeing many PLers start to give a shit about mobility, prehab/rehab work, keeping BF levels in check, neoprene knee/elbow sleeves, etc… I, for one, think it’s a good thing.[/quote]
I totally get where you are coming from…
but I will say this…at best, I was an average strength athlete…and I am half crippled now that I am only in my 40’s
I did NOT have the genetics to be strong.
I ruined my body trying to be (strong)
If I had played it safer, did more BBing, I probably would look a lot better now, and be able to go to the park and play soccer with my kids today, but frankly I cannot.