Homeopathy?

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101

[quote]Gothic77 wrote:
But here’s the clincher… NOBODY WILL SELL IT TO YOU! You have to have a legitimate problem for any homeopath to treat you. You can’t be given a lethal dose because they don’t sell the higher concentrations in the health food store.
[/quote]

By “higher concentrations” do you mean “stronger according to homeopathy theory”, which would be more dilute? Of course I would not take a dose of arsenic diluted 3x, or anything else that might really be harmful, non-homeopathically speaking.

All homeopathic treatments that are for self-limiting conditions (colds, etc.) rather than serious diseases do not require a prescription. Are there lethal doses of those?

Anyway, you can get pretty much whatever you want without a prescription, as far as I can tell.

102

so what are the reasons that larry doesn’t like homeopathy? that there’re no molecules in the solution, and that the trials are not repeatable?

okay, if there’re no molecules in the solution that means that placebo did it, and the fact that the trials were unrepeatable doesn’t show its ineffectiveness. that only shows that it hasn’t been proven to be effective. the reasons for that are many. being that the understanding of homeopathic application is minute what are the possibilities that the trials just couldn’t cut it? i’d like to see a comprehensive trial wherein both the most renowned homeopathists and renowned psychiatrists, and renowned psychologists (as a control) do their thing with a group of patients. then compare results.

most people dont understand that homeopathy will either do absolutely nothing or exactly what it’s supposed to. skeptics dont like the way that works so they say it’s ineffective because results should be reproducable in everybody. i know it’s hard for adamantly scientifically minded individuals to realize that homeopathy is an individual thing (much like so many little things that we take for granted).

as for placebo, if homeopathy works on animals then the placebo hypothesis is hogwash. i know buffkillah thinks placebo can work on animals, but the way he described it was way far to inefficient to do what the results resulted. placebo could work on children, i dont care. we know it works on adults.

but the question is: how do we know if it’s placebo? for starters, placebo would not be a word in our vocabulary if it wasn’t for the need for a control with scientific investigations. this means that placebo isn’t as powerful as everybody thinks because the control are normal, random people with normal, random lives who’re told that the pill they consume once, twice, thrice a day will do such and such (yet it’s sugar).

so the placebo effect is a way of balancing the effects of that which is being studied; not a means of study itself (except when the hypothesis first arose).

truly, if anybody wanted to find clinical trials about the efficacy of homeopathy they’d only have to get the logs and such of Dr. Richard Stephen Mann and others and compare them to the statistical average. but that wont happen because homeopathy is treated more like an art than a science. my homeopathists probably doesn’t even have my records (he didn’t even bill me, and i heard he always seems to forget to bill his patients).

as far as relating placebo to my situation, that’s ludicrous at best. i know there’s no way for anybody here to know, but i am a completely different person. by this i dont mean that i have a different outlook, that im more grown up, but that i am not the same person as before (that i’d been since birth). dont glaze over the fact that i say i was headed in schizophrenia, or that i say now that i never was a happy person. i always was extremely shy, had to have others do regular things for me because i would freak out, i couldn’t take stress, couldn’t love myself, couldn’t appreciate living, the list goes on and on. all that is as if it never existed. i am as if i was born a different person. i would say that previously i was inherently unhappy, and now im inherently happy.

those effects cannot, in any way be considered placebo because placebo has never been shown to have such dramatic, long-lasting effects. but if it is all in my mind then it’s about time you realize that i am your god and you must worship and prostrate yourself before me before i realize how to use my mind so powerfully again and become Neo.

103

[quote]larryb wrote:
Gothic77 wrote:
But here’s the clincher… NOBODY WILL SELL IT TO YOU! You have to have a legitimate problem for any homeopath to treat you. You can’t be given a lethal dose because they don’t sell the higher concentrations in the health food store.

By “higher concentrations” do you mean “stronger according to homeopathy theory”, which would be more dilute? Of course I would not take a dose of arsenic diluted 3x, or anything else that might really be harmful, non-homeopathically speaking.

All homeopathic treatments that are for self-limiting conditions (colds, etc.) rather than serious diseases do not require a prescription. Are there lethal doses of those?

Anyway, you can get pretty much whatever you want without a prescription, as far as I can tell.[/quote]

i wont buy the entire debate about lethal dose of homeopathy. there is none. the lethal dose would have to be an extract of the plant or whatever the homeopathy was derived from that had too large a quantity of such and such particle that it kills.

keep in mind that there is a difference between something that is supposed to work fully right now and something that is supposed to work slightly, gradually over a long, long period of time.

104

I don’t have the time to respond to every person who insists they’ve proven that homeopathy works because a few people think it worked for them, or because a link was posted to one unrepeatable clinical trial sponsored by an “alternative medicine” organization that purports to have shown positive results. Unfortunately, somehow in this day and age people still want to believe that sugar pills can treat “the cause” and not just “the symptoms”, a claim which is only even appropriate to invoke if you subscribe to the notion that the cause of disease is more “spiritual” than “physical”, as the earliest promoters of homeopathy believe:

Incidentally, for those of you who insist that the sugar pills really do contain something other than sugar (or that the water from which the sugar pills are made is actually more than just water), you’re missing the point in that homeopaths don’t even claim that it DOES contain something other than water. Why you felt compelled to insist that these treatments are more than just water with a memory escapes me, since the following is the claim that homeopaths themselves make. It’s called the “Theory of Infinitesimals”:

They purport that water has a “memory” and that the “active” ingredient is imprinted onto the water. Successive dilutions only work to strengthen that “memory” and thus the potency of the preparation. They don’t claim that there will necessarily be even one molecule of the “active” ingredient in their formulations. Why do you?

Another good question would be: how does the water know the difference between a homeopathic ingredient that is dissolved in it, and any old thing like dog crap that has inevitably been at one point dissolved in that water throughout its existence on planet earth? How does the water know what to consider an ingredient that should impart some kind of an effect on a human consumer, and what substances to disregard and not store in its “memory”?

Anyway, before you go attacking people who are trying to help not just you, but others who happen to be reading this thread, maybe you should become more knowledgable yourself about the topic that you’ve chosen to so steadfastly defend.

Nobody thinks less of you for having fallen for it. I tried oscillococcinum once, before I knew what homeopathy even was. What the hell, I’m in a drug store to buy flu medicine, I see a box that claims to treat the flu and I buy it. It’s nothing to be ashamed of. Why do you seem to have so much invested in showing that this rubbish actually works? THAT’S the real question, and not the opposite.

Personally, I don’t care what you choose to piss your money away on, but others may be reading this thread and basing their opinion of homeopathy on what they read. So, by all means, eat your sugar and pat yourself on the back for being so open-minded, but don’t go getting on your high horse and accusing those who are critical of homeopathy of being stubborn and close-minded.

And did anyone even bother to read the links I posted? Specifically, the Randi link? They didn’t work when I first put them up, but they do now. For those of you who insist homeopathy works, did you know that it’s eligible for the JREF $1,000,000 prize? Why don’t you get Boiron to apply for the test? Win the million and I promise to rethink my position on the matter.

105

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
Gothic77 wrote:
Yet we HAVE proven that homeopathy works.

I’m sorry, but this statement is false. You’ve shown evidence that it may be effective in some cases, not proven that it works.
[/quote]

We’ve proven that it DOES work - in our experiences it has worked.

[quote]
Gothic, what is the cause of your migranes? How does what you take affect the root cause? I’m just curious, my brother gets them too, and the medication is a little expensive. Maybe homeopathy can help him too. He’s an engineer, though, he’d need a causal relationship to even consider giving it a try.

-Dan[/quote]

I actually don’t know the cause of my migraines. I know that migraines are familial - they tend to run in fmailies. Most are multi-causal, though. For me, it’s strong chemical odors, stress, my neck out of alignment, heat, lack of nutrients, and sometimes just plain ol’ random!

Homeopathy helped in the past, but the remedy that worked 12 years ago may be different than the one I’d need now due to a different environment, different stressors, etc.

I haven’t seen a homeopath in about 10-12 years, so I just do different stuff for it. Chiropractic has helped immensely, actually. That’s probably been the best thing for my migraines. Your brother has my sympathy.

106

[quote]larryb wrote:
Anyway, you can get pretty much whatever you want without a prescription, as far as I can tell.[/quote]

Well, I really don’t care WHAT can be purchased w/o a script. I tend not to take a gamble with my life!

107

I had no idea I’d stir up this much interest. I did meet w/ my M.D. who is also a firm believer in homeopathy. He gave me a remedy that will help w/ my asthma. I will keep everyone posted.

108

[quote]Robert Monti wrote:
I had no idea I’d stir up this much interest. I did meet w/ my M.D. who is also a firm believer in homeopathy. He gave me a remedy that will help w/ my asthma. I will keep everyone posted.[/quote]

Good deal. Looking fwd to the outcome. :slight_smile:

109

[quote]Gothic77 wrote:
I actually don’t know the cause of my migraines. I know that migraines are familial - they tend to run in fmailies. Most are multi-causal, though. For me, it’s strong chemical odors, stress, my neck out of alignment, heat, lack of nutrients, and sometimes just plain ol’ random!

I haven’t seen a homeopath in about 10-12 years, so I just do different stuff for it. Chiropractic has helped immensely, actually. That’s probably been the best thing for my migraines. Your brother has my sympathy.
[/quote]

See, that’s what I and larryb are a little worried about when it comes to homeopathy - you mentioned that the treatment took care of the root cause of your migranes, but you (and thus presumably the therapist, or he would have told you) don’t know what it is that is the underlying root.

I don’t mean to sound flippant, but what if the remedy helped considerably because you simply stopped worrying about the migranes? I’ve learned that they tend to be familial, too - I will get one on occasion, usually after a really tough deadlifting session. They go away after I pop my neck and back back into place and walk around a bit to restore proper blood flow. Sometimes during a session I can feel one coming on, and prevent it by simply taking a step back and breathing deeply, relaxing a bit, and then going back to the workout.

The stress response is ridiculously powerful, especially when active for prolonged periods. I’m certainly not belittiling your migranes, as I know there are other factors involved, but reducing the stress in your life through the treatments may have had the same effect that chiropractic (and subesquent muscular relaxation and spinal alignment) are having now.

Ridding one’s self of the stress response also shows dramatic improvements in health and well-being. That’s been shown in more than enough studies with the immune system among other physical systems.

I really don’t think the pills have any direct physical effect, though the treatment holistically may be/is of great benefit to some, even if simply as a mitigator of the stress response.

-Dan

110

Well, I’ve been reading and researching like topics for about 10 years now. My college studies in psychology were basic and barely scratched the surface.
I’ve read Llyal Watson’s Beyond Supernature, Paul Davies’ God and The New Physics, and David Chalmers’ The Conscious Mind: The Search for a Fundamental Theory.

Some heavy reading, but lately I’ve been interested in the notion that we can potentially create our own reality through quantum physics.
I haven’t read enough about homeopathy to say yea or nay, but I approach any topic with an open mind.

111

All right guys, here’s the scoop:

My M.D. has 30 years experience homeopathy and I asked him to prescribe a homeopathic rememedy for my asthma. I took it every day till the bottle was empty.

Bottom line: It works!

My asthma is not eliminated completely but my am/pm weezing is significantly reduced. I don’t have to buy my albuterol inhalers nearly as much which is damn fine by me.

I will follow up w/ my Dr. and see what steps I can take to keep the progess going.

If you can find a competent Dr. near you, I’d suggest looking into it.

112

Hey, good for you. I’m glad that after all had been said on this thread, you had the guts to make up your own mind about the matter. Just like I said: something can work very well even though science doesn’t know how yet.

By the way, what’s the name, both commercial and latin, of your medicine?

113

yeah, seriously, good for you. despite the pro homeopathy arguments i and others put forth on this thread, i became kinda convinced that there’s a possibility that we were wrong. i think it’s that i’ve opened up to the possibility that placebo is much different and much more powerful than i ever thought. that’s why i tried to take the discussion in that direction because we weren’t getting anywhere arguing that homeopathy is essentially nothing yet many experience its benefits.

i think it boils down to the fact that anecdote is essentially meaningless for the masses, despite the results. i’d still like to see studies down with lifelong homeopathists who prescribe treatment on one on one bases, and their results contrasted with conventional therapy.

but really, good for you for trying it and im pleased it worked.

114

You know, I can’t say the full name. It was of the arsenic variet but my dr’s handwriting on the bottle is so poor, I’m not sure what it says.

When I do find out, I’ll repost.

115

check out these sites:

these sites both monitor the huge amount of quackery in both respective disciplines.

remember that homeopaths and naturopaths are not even CLOSE to being doctors. remember that MDs and RDs and RNs are all regulated by the government, and NDs and homeopaths are not. and there is a reason homepaths and NDs cannot work in hospitals, prescribe medecine, and are rarely covered by insurance.

both fields are mainly composed of quacks.

116

don’t get me wrong, there are obviously many natural compounds out there which have been shown in countless clinical studies to have this effect on that or that effect on this, and they can contribute to whatever it is someone’s trying to do.

i.e. caffeine increasing mental alertness, suagr drinks prolonging performance during exercise, vitamins b-12 and folate given to pregnant women to promote healthy fetal development, etc…

but homeopathy and naturopathy try to sell ‘natural’ cures for everything, and this simply isn’t the case. there’s tons and tons and tons of bullshit and bad advice in those fields. personally, i would never see a homeopath or naturopath, they aren’t doctors, and they are even scientists.

117

Hey guys, that was me on Zell’s name. Zell’s an old pal/training partner of mine back when I used to do MMA.

118

[quote]hueyOT wrote:
don’t get me wrong, there are obviously many natural compounds out there which have been shown in countless clinical studies to have this effect on that or that effect on this, and they can contribute to whatever it is someone’s trying to do.

i.e. caffeine increasing mental alertness, suagr drinks prolonging performance during exercise, vitamins b-12 and folate given to pregnant women to promote healthy fetal development, etc…

It worked for me and it was cheaper than the presriptions my alergist prescribes.

but homeopathy and naturopathy try to sell ‘natural’ cures for everything, and this simply isn’t the case. there’s tons and tons and tons of bullshit and bad advice in those fields. personally, i would never see a homeopath or naturopath, they aren’t doctors, and they are even scientists.[/quote]

119

Bullshit.

120

[quote]doogie wrote:
Bullshit.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4183916.stm[/quote]

from the link… “It has been established beyond doubt and accepted by many researchers, that the placebo-controlled randomised controlled trial is not a fitting research tool with which to test homeopathy.”

well then, what is?