[quote]wufwugy wrote:
…
it’s about giving a substance to a person that is experiencing symptoms nearly identical to symptoms that healthy people experience when given that same remedy.
[/quote]
Except that you don’t give them any, you give them water or oil that has a “memory” of the substance.
Anyway, does “like cures like” sound reasonable to you?
[quote]doogie wrote:
wufwugy wrote:
did you intend a different meaning than what i interpreted?
Definitely. [/quote]
enlighten.
[quote]doogie wrote:
wufwugy wrote:
do all those who thing homeopathy is garbage also think the same thing of acupuncture?
Do they take the acupuncture needles and cut them down until they are
1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000th the size of normal needles?[/quote]
no, but they do that with trees and metal.
[quote]wufwugy wrote:
honestly, i’d LOVE to find that my experience is all in my mind. that would make me feel like a fucking god!
[/quote]
Then do some research on homeopathy and the placebo effect (in general), and decide for yourself. The question is, can belief in the placebo effect work as well as belief in the placebo? It may be a lot easier to believe a big red pill can cure you than to believe your mind can cure you.
[quote]larryb wrote:
There are no active ingredients.
If any homeopathic medicine had any significant effect, this would be fairly easy to prove.[/quote]
assuming that’s true, i either took “homeopathy” and im all placebo, or i took something else that is undisclosed and it worked. i think i dont wanna worry about the latter option cuz we’ll never know or be able to prove it.
but if my experience is placebo then that means that the 1.5-.6 years of experiences ive had that are drastically different than what i’d experienced previously for many years and that which i genetically was predisposed for was caused by talking to a guy for three hours and putting about a teaspoon of tiny beeds in my mouth. or the teaspoon was something. also, i took the remedy a second time a month later and experience none of the same effects that i got from the first dose.
i cant argue for any of the science of homeopathy (or lack thereof), but im not here for that and i thought i made it evident that anecdotal experience is where i derive my ideas. if you’re willing to tell me that my experiences are placebo then i’ll be willing accept your acknowledgement of my super powers (because im sure the placebo effect has never been shown to be as powerful as my case).
[quote]larryb wrote:
wufwugy wrote:
…
it’s about giving a substance to a person that is experiencing symptoms nearly identical to symptoms that healthy people experience when given that same remedy.
Except that you don’t give them any, you give them water or oil that has a “memory” of the substance.
Anyway, does “like cures like” sound reasonable to you?[/quote]
so this is the cutoff. i think i got something while you think i didn’t. i can choose to believe the description the doc gave or i can choose to believe you.
[quote]larryb wrote:
wufwugy wrote:
honestly, i’d LOVE to find that my experience is all in my mind. that would make me feel like a fucking god!
Then do some research on homeopathy and the placebo effect (in general), and decide for yourself. The question is, can belief in the placebo effect work as well as belief in the placebo? It may be a lot easier to believe a big red pill can cure you than to believe your mind can cure you.[/quote]
but i didn’t believe it would do anything. do you wanna know how many pills i took while believing they would work wonders, yet they did zilch?
where was the placebo then? as i said, im not gonna argue if there was something in what i took or not because there is no way for me to know (many signs say there wasn’t anyway), but it cant be called placebo simply because that didn’t work when it was supposed to but worked when it wasn’t.
if that was (and is) placebo, it must be among the most elaborate placebos ever.
[quote]doogie wrote:
Please post those studies, because your assurance that it works means nothing.
[/quote]
here is some evidence i found from 5 seconds of browsing online… and i’ve read the book “Discovering Homeopathy” which has a complete history of all the most important scientific studies proving the efficacy of homeopathy, and all the times it was used successfully since its inception. there is ample proof there for the most close-minded… i hope you are not so close-minded that you will reject the evidence below:
Homeopathy Proves Effective In Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Study
Contrary to the overwhelming belief of the mainstream medical establishment, results from a recent series of trials suggest that homeopathy is more effective than an inactive pill (placebo) in treating certain ills.
Researchers studied 51 patients with perennial hay fever. Twenty-four of the study subjects received daily homeopathy and 27 received a daily placebo treatment during the 4-week study period.
The study was performed to the highest standards of scientific research, being double-blinded, randomized, and placebo-controlled.
All of the subjects kept a diary in which they recorded twice daily their nasal air flow measurements and symptoms such as sneezing, runny nose, and eye and chest symptoms.
Patients who received homeopathy had a 28% improvement in their nasal air flow whereas those in the placebo group had only a 3% improvement.
In comments to Reuters Health, study author Dr. David Reilly of the Glasgow Homoeopathic Hospital states “There are two ways of interpreting the fact that four trials in a row have produced positive results,” Either homeopathy works, in which case “we need to explore the clinical potential and the scientific challenges, (or) homeopathy does not work (and) the clinical trial is proving an unreliable tool capable of worrying false positive results.”
In an accompanying editorial, Tim Lancaster of the Oxford Institute of Health Sciences and Andrew Vickers of Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York City, acknowledge that the methods employed by Dr. Reilly and his colleagues “were rigorous and it is unlikely that their results arose from methodological bias.”
They also admit that if this study can be confirmed by a larger trial it could really change the thinking of mainstream medicine towards homeopathy.
British Medical Journal August 19, 2000;321:471-476.
(Dr. Mercola's Censored Library (Private Membership) | Dr. Joseph Mercola | Substack)
To the surprise of most, the first double blind crossover study ever performed
was done concurrently in eleven different cities on fifty-on subjects. This particular experiment consisted of 665 pages, which was the Research Provings of Belladonna.
Also, at the turn of the century a book was published called “The Logic of Figures or Comparative Results of Homeopathic and Other Treatments”. This book provides dozens of charts comparing dis-ease and death rates in Homeopathic and Allopathic Hospitals. This also included the epidemic diseases of scarlet fever, yellow fever, typhoid, etc… The Homeopathic Hospitals usually had 50 - 80% less deaths per 100 people, depending on the disease compared.
Another early double blind study was sponsored by the British Government during World War II. This experiment demonstrated that those given Homeopathic remedies experienced significant improvement in burns form mustard gas in comparison to those given a placebo. A 1982 review provided further substantiation of the statistical significance of the research.
Laboratory Evidence
The number one criticism in the scientific community has been the “infinitesimal” nature or the dilution principle of Homeopathy. Homeopaths do agree that once a remedy is diluted beyond 24S or 12C potencies, they are diluted beyond Avogadro’s Number (6.02 x 10) which theoretically indicates that no molecules are present from the original substance. However, both laboratory and clinical results over the last 190 years have demonstrated definite effectiveness with remedies beyond this dilution.
A Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR) study showed that all twenty-three different Homeopathic remedies and potencies tested in the study had distinctive readings of submolecular activity, while the placebos did not. This demonstrates that Homeopathy’s function is not so much chemical, but energetic. As Chiropractors, you will observer dramatic clearing of sensory nerve interference and pathological reflex activity causing chronic recurring subluxation activity and dis-ease.
Antiviral
A study has also shown the antiviral effect of homeopathic remedies. Eight of the ten remedies tested inhibited viruses in chicken embryos from 50 to 100%, depending on the potencies used.
Heavy Metals
The respected journal, human toxicology, published a study showing Homeopathic doses of arsenic eliminated crude doses of trapped arsenic that had been previously fed to rats.
Lowered Serum Cholesterol
Four German scientist at a Veterinary College showed the Homeopathic ingredient Chelldonium had lowered serum cholesterol when given twice a day to rabbits on a cholesterol rich diet.
Reduced Labor Problems
British Veterinarian, Christopher Day, had conducted several pilot studies demonstrating how Homeopathic remedies had reduced labor problems in cattle, still births in pigs, and mastitis in cattle.
Anti-Cancer
The Cancer Research Center in India found that of 77 mice receiving a transplant in Fibrosarcoma, 52 % survived more than one year with Homeopathy. The 77 mice that were untreated, died within 10 - 15 days.
Pain Control
Scientist at a British School of Pharmacy found that rodents given Hypericum were able to inhibit pain responses. Rodents were able to remain on a hot plate longer than the control group. When given Naloxone, which inhibits pain killing endorphins, the protective effects of Hypericum was reduced, showing that Homeopathic Hypericum activates endorphins when needed. Please not that these rodents were free to walk off the hot plate whenever discomfort was noticed.
Allergies
Homeopathic ingredients Apis and Histamine have a significant effect on reducing the release of certain allergy-causing chemicals from Basophils, which demonstrates on reason for Homeopathy’s positive effects on allergies.
Improved Immune Function
A respected pharmacological journal showed that the Homeopathic ingredient Silica had a significant effect on stimulating Macrophages in mice, which destroy foreign particles, bacteria, and old cells.
Rheumatoid Arthritis
Clinical Evidence: The British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology published a double-blind experiment on patients with Rheumatoid Arthritis. An Impressive 82% of those given a Homeopathic medicine experienced some relief of symptoms, while only 21% of those given a placebo experienced any similar degree of improvement.
Dental Neuralgia
Another double blind trial was conducted on patients with dental neuralgic pain following tooth extraction. An impressive 76% of those given the Homeopathic medicines Arnica and Hypericum experienced relief of pain.
Vertigo and Nausea
The respected German Pharmacological Journal demonstrated a statistically significant improvement in reducing vertigo and nausea with a Homeopathic combination formula.
If I drink 1 liter of Vodka I get absolutely shitfaced (very drunk)but when I drink 1 liter of beer I feel nothing!!!
If the principles of homeopathy where correct brinking beer should be MORE intoxicating than vodka! The alcohol is more diluted.
Maybe if I really believe…
“They also admit that if this study can be confirmed by a larger trial it could really change the thinking of mainstream medicine towards homeopathy.”
Not bloody likely. There is a great line…I think it comes from some famous physicist. It basically says that you never convince anyone of anything really new. The only way new ideas get accepted is that the older generation dies off and the newer generation grows up taking it for granted.
I don’t think homeopathy really makes any differance but if it works for an individual for whatever reason—Great.
Whoa, lovers and haters here. I agree sometimes that the theories they use to explain their result may be outdated, if not outright wrong. But one thing you can’t deny, its the results people keep having. Placebo effect? Maybe some, but then why not placebo effect with regular medecine?
It’s common to see someone suffering from an ailment being prescribe a painkiller without knowing it and coming to the Dr saying he’s all okay now. And on top of that, I’d like someone here to tell me how a placebo, which, according to you, is the power of positive thinking, can work on children and animals? Homeopathy is being used more and more by vets an pediatricians alike.
So, how do you convince a cow it’s inflammation will go away? Or do the same with a toddler who can only master babble so far? I wouldn’t blindly thrust an homeopath, but I sure as hell would give it a try. Cheaper than medecine, at any rate. What bugs me the most here, is people unwilling to give it the benefit of the doubt, especially in the scientific community. Many a time, an hypotesis wasn’t right, but it led to further understanding of a phenomenon. The absence of proof isn’t a proof in itself.
If there is no scientific way to prove that homeopathy works, such as Jacques Benveniste attempted, it chould not discredit the result homeopath keep ahving with their clients. Science will come around to an explanation one day or another, that’s all. We here in the iron community should be more understanding of that, as many thing that were done didn’t have scientific proof until recently. Hell, doctors of old would say that bodybuilding was a dangerous practice, and I’m not refering to aas use here. In the end, until a satisfactory scientific proof is discovered, it all comes down to the benefit of the doubt.
[quote]silencer wrote:
A Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR) study showed that all twenty-three different Homeopathic remedies and potencies tested in the study had distinctive readings of submolecular activity, while the placebos did not.
[/quote]
I assume this refers to the Conte study. These results were not repeatable.
“… we have shown that it is likely that Conte’s original results are attributable to experimental artifact originating in the glassware used for the manufacture of the NMR tubes.”
“In conclusion, published results from NMR research on homeopathy indicating differences between homeopathic solutions and control samples could not be reproduced.”
Since people keep bringing it up, building tolerance to a substance in very small doses is called Hormesis.
There is a good article on a recent revisit of studies of hormesis effect in the archives of Chemical&Engineering News.
[quote]Zen warrior wrote:
If there is no scientific way to prove that homeopathy works, such as Jacques Benveniste attempted, it chould not discredit the result homeopath keep ahving with their clients.
[/quote]
Forget about NMR results and effects on cells in a petri dish. If it worked, the effect on patients should be clear, and repeatable studies would reliably show that it did work. This is not the case. I’m not sure why researchers are searching for a “cause” for a non-existent effect.
there is a scientific here in quebec that took millions of em’ homeopathist told him he was going to die, guess what nothing happen.
[quote]Zen warrior wrote:
Placebo effect? Maybe some, but then why not placebo effect with regular medecine?
[/quote]
Yes, the placebo effect in conventional medicine also has a large impact. That is why placebo controls are necessary in drug testing. Surgery is a more difficult case. Only a few types of surgery have been tested against “fake surgery”. Some common procedures may be ineffective or more harmful on average than doing nothing.
http://www.mindbodyhealth.com/kneesurgery.htm
I suspect that people who “don’t trust doctors” or “don’t like pills” may not benefit much from the placebo effect of conventional treatments.
I asked for proof of your “water memory” nonsense. Instead you posted a study from 2000 dealing with treating allergies (not “water memory”)that has since been discredited. The rest of that the stuff you posted is just someone saying it works with no studies to back up anything.
Again, do you have any proof of this electromagnetic change in water?
[quote]silencer wrote:
doogie wrote:
Please post those studies, because your assurance that it works means nothing.
here is some evidence i found from 5 seconds of browsing online… and i’ve read the book “Discovering Homeopathy” which has a complete history of all the most important scientific studies proving the efficacy of homeopathy, and all the times it was used successfully since its inception. there is ample proof there for the most close-minded… i hope you are not so close-minded that you will reject the evidence below:
Homeopathy Proves Effective In Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled Study
Contrary to the overwhelming belief of the mainstream medical establishment, results from a recent series of trials suggest that homeopathy is more effective than an inactive pill (placebo) in treating certain ills.
Researchers studied 51 patients with perennial hay fever. Twenty-four of the study subjects received daily homeopathy and 27 received a daily placebo treatment during the 4-week study period.
The study was performed to the highest standards of scientific research, being double-blinded, randomized, and placebo-controlled.
All of the subjects kept a diary in which they recorded twice daily their nasal air flow measurements and symptoms such as sneezing, runny nose, and eye and chest symptoms.
Patients who received homeopathy had a 28% improvement in their nasal air flow whereas those in the placebo group had only a 3% improvement.
In comments to Reuters Health, study author Dr. David Reilly of the Glasgow Homoeopathic Hospital states “There are two ways of interpreting the fact that four trials in a row have produced positive results,” Either homeopathy works, in which case “we need to explore the clinical potential and the scientific challenges, (or) homeopathy does not work (and) the clinical trial is proving an unreliable tool capable of worrying false positive results.”
In an accompanying editorial, Tim Lancaster of the Oxford Institute of Health Sciences and Andrew Vickers of Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York City, acknowledge that the methods employed by Dr. Reilly and his colleagues “were rigorous and it is unlikely that their results arose from methodological bias.”
They also admit that if this study can be confirmed by a larger trial it could really change the thinking of mainstream medicine towards homeopathy.
British Medical Journal August 19, 2000;321:471-476.
(Dr. Mercola's Censored Library (Private Membership) | Dr. Joseph Mercola | Substack)
To the surprise of most, the first double blind crossover study ever performed
was done concurrently in eleven different cities on fifty-on subjects. This particular experiment consisted of 665 pages, which was the Research Provings of Belladonna.
Also, at the turn of the century a book was published called “The Logic of Figures or Comparative Results of Homeopathic and Other Treatments”. This book provides dozens of charts comparing dis-ease and death rates in Homeopathic and Allopathic Hospitals. This also included the epidemic diseases of scarlet fever, yellow fever, typhoid, etc… The Homeopathic Hospitals usually had 50 - 80% less deaths per 100 people, depending on the disease compared.
Another early double blind study was sponsored by the British Government during World War II. This experiment demonstrated that those given Homeopathic remedies experienced significant improvement in burns form mustard gas in comparison to those given a placebo. A 1982 review provided further substantiation of the statistical significance of the research.
Laboratory Evidence
The number one criticism in the scientific community has been the “infinitesimal” nature or the dilution principle of Homeopathy. Homeopaths do agree that once a remedy is diluted beyond 24S or 12C potencies, they are diluted beyond Avogadro’s Number (6.02 x 10) which theoretically indicates that no molecules are present from the original substance. However, both laboratory and clinical results over the last 190 years have demonstrated definite effectiveness with remedies beyond this dilution.
A Nuclear Magnetic Resonance (NMR) study showed that all twenty-three different Homeopathic remedies and potencies tested in the study had distinctive readings of submolecular activity, while the placebos did not. This demonstrates that Homeopathy’s function is not so much chemical, but energetic. As Chiropractors, you will observer dramatic clearing of sensory nerve interference and pathological reflex activity causing chronic recurring subluxation activity and dis-ease.
Antiviral
A study has also shown the antiviral effect of homeopathic remedies. Eight of the ten remedies tested inhibited viruses in chicken embryos from 50 to 100%, depending on the potencies used.
Heavy Metals
The respected journal, human toxicology, published a study showing Homeopathic doses of arsenic eliminated crude doses of trapped arsenic that had been previously fed to rats.
Lowered Serum Cholesterol
Four German scientist at a Veterinary College showed the Homeopathic ingredient Chelldonium had lowered serum cholesterol when given twice a day to rabbits on a cholesterol rich diet.
Reduced Labor Problems
British Veterinarian, Christopher Day, had conducted several pilot studies demonstrating how Homeopathic remedies had reduced labor problems in cattle, still births in pigs, and mastitis in cattle.
Anti-Cancer
The Cancer Research Center in India found that of 77 mice receiving a transplant in Fibrosarcoma, 52 % survived more than one year with Homeopathy. The 77 mice that were untreated, died within 10 - 15 days.
Pain Control
Scientist at a British School of Pharmacy found that rodents given Hypericum were able to inhibit pain responses. Rodents were able to remain on a hot plate longer than the control group. When given Naloxone, which inhibits pain killing endorphins, the protective effects of Hypericum was reduced, showing that Homeopathic Hypericum activates endorphins when needed. Please not that these rodents were free to walk off the hot plate whenever discomfort was noticed.
Allergies
Homeopathic ingredients Apis and Histamine have a significant effect on reducing the release of certain allergy-causing chemicals from Basophils, which demonstrates on reason for Homeopathy’s positive effects on allergies.
Improved Immune Function
A respected pharmacological journal showed that the Homeopathic ingredient Silica had a significant effect on stimulating Macrophages in mice, which destroy foreign particles, bacteria, and old cells.
Rheumatoid Arthritis
Clinical Evidence: The British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology published a double-blind experiment on patients with Rheumatoid Arthritis. An Impressive 82% of those given a Homeopathic medicine experienced some relief of symptoms, while only 21% of those given a placebo experienced any similar degree of improvement.
Dental Neuralgia
Another double blind trial was conducted on patients with dental neuralgic pain following tooth extraction. An impressive 76% of those given the Homeopathic medicines Arnica and Hypericum experienced relief of pain.
Vertigo and Nausea
The respected German Pharmacological Journal demonstrated a statistically significant improvement in reducing vertigo and nausea with a Homeopathic combination formula.
(http://www.homerunhealth.com/homeopathicresearch.htm)
[/quote]
I’ve posted this once before, but it bears repeating:
If you want the skinny on homeopathy, check out the following:
Taken directly from the Quackwatch article above (read it, it will blow your mind):
Homeopathic products are made from minerals, botanical substances, and several other sources. If the original substance is soluble, one part is diluted with either nine or ninety-nine parts of distilled water and/or alcohol and shaken vigorously (succussed); if insoluble, it is finely ground and pulverized in similar proportions with powdered lactose (milk sugar). One part of the diluted medicine is then further diluted, and the process is repeated until the desired concentration is reached. Dilutions of 1 to 10 are designated by the Roman numeral X (1X = 1/10, 3X = 1/1,000, 6X = 1/1,000,000). Similarly, dilutions of 1 to 100 are designated by the Roman numeral C (1C = 1/100, 3C = 1/1,000,000, and so on). Most remedies today range from 6X to 30X, but products of 30C or more are marketed.
A 30X dilution means that the original substance has been diluted 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. Assuming that a cubic centimeter of water contains 15 drops, this number is greater than the number of drops of water that would fill a container more than 50 times the size of the Earth. Imagine placing a drop of red dye into such a container so that it disperses evenly. Homeopathy’s “law of infinitesimals” is the equivalent of saying that any drop of water subsequently removed from that container will possess an essence of redness. Robert L. Park, Ph.D., a prominent physicist who is executive director of The American Physical Society, has noted that since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30,000,000,000 times the size of the Earth.
Bottom line: any TRUE homeopathic product is eligible for the $1,000,000 prize from The Amazing Randi’s JREF foundation. It involves an objective third-party performing a test agreed upon by both the JREF and the applicant. To date, no homeopathic “remedy” has succeeded in winning the money. In fact, Randi himself has staged many public “mass suicides” where he and others have taken massive doses of so-called homeopathic remedies while the manufacturers insisted that doing so would be harmful, and of course no effect was observed at all. Your oscillococcinum is sugar, my friend. If anyone appeared to get better after taking it, you can rest ASSURED that this was unrelated to having ingested those sugar pellets.
Homeopathy is a huge scam. Shame on the FDA for cracking down on ephedra and pro-hormones, but ignoring worthless crap like this. If that’s not proof that the FDA is a politically motivated organization that’s unconcerned with truly watching out for the American people, then I don’t know what is.
[quote]wufwugy wrote:
do all those who think homeopathy is garbage also think the same thing of acupuncture?[/quote]
They are considering abolishing acupuncture in California due to all of the fraud.