HFT is Unpopular

Training Powerlifting
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[quote]OBoile wrote:
Olympic lifts are largely technique based. Because they need to maintain/refine their technique, they have to lift more frequently but with a lower % of their 1 rep max. If their already working on their snatch/clean and jerk why not do some squats as well.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a video of an O-lifter doing a true max effort squat. The video of Rezazadeh above looked like he was using maybe 85% of his 1 rep max. I’m not saying they don’t do it (although I’m sure they don’t do it every day like one poster above said), I’ve just never seen it - an O-lifter doing a real grinder for a single.[/quote]

that vid of mendes is a 1rm(cant speak for the rez vid but i bet its a max effort lift), they dont look like grinders because oly lifters train and compete in an explosive sport, oly lifters will take advantage of the whip of the bar and the stretch shortening cycle moreso than a pl lifter typicaly will.

the bulgarian method of weightlifting would have an o lifter maxing on at least one lift per workout with 2-3 workouts per day 6-7 days per week. john broz uses a dialed back version of the bulgarian method for his atheletes(mendes)

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ps pat mendes grinded out 800 in sept

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[quote]Crow wrote:

[quote]MisterMagoo wrote:
If you can show me a vid of Hossein handling over 600, I’d like to see it. And I’m serious. I’d LOVE to know what his best squat is. The guy’s a GOLIATH.

My point is just that Oly lifters gear their squatting toward Oly lifting. If their method of squatting was the best for increasing the squat max, PL’ers would DEFINITELY do it. I have to say that, in my experience, even something like Sheiko was just shattering after four weeks. I’m on the 5/3/1 now and I feel better than ever.

However, I love threads like this, and kudos to the OP for sparking a good discussion! :)[/quote]

You asked…I delivered

Now lets think about this, 600+ for a double with just a belt. No wraps, no monolift, no spotters, and no suit of course. And much deeper than PLer “depth”. How many powerlifters do you know can do that?[/quote]

Have you ever seen anyone squat in most raw competitions? Most raw federations REQUIRE such depth. Just because you only associate wide stance squatting with powerlifting doesn’t mean powerlifters don’t lift ATG.

And on the topic of Pat Mendez, yes he is a freakishly strong dude and would destroy anyone at any weightlifting meet. Yet, he hasn’t competed in one (lately I believe, correct me if I’m wrong). Now why wouldn’t a young man that is moving those kind of weights compete? I’ll let you make the inferences.

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Just to show you a what I mean by the ‘in between’ technique.

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I think the big problem is that a lot of Oly acolytes seem to associate powerlifting ONLY with the IPA ultra-geared types, with the monolifts and wide-out squat stances.

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[quote]iluvgmas wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:
Olympic lifts are largely technique based. Because they need to maintain/refine their technique, they have to lift more frequently but with a lower % of their 1 rep max. If their already working on their snatch/clean and jerk why not do some squats as well.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a video of an O-lifter doing a true max effort squat. The video of Rezazadeh above looked like he was using maybe 85% of his 1 rep max. I’m not saying they don’t do it (although I’m sure they don’t do it every day like one poster above said), I’ve just never seen it - an O-lifter doing a real grinder for a single.[/quote]

that vid of mendes is a 1rm(cant speak for the rez vid but i bet its a max effort lift), they dont look like grinders because oly lifters train and compete in an explosive sport, oly lifters will take advantage of the whip of the bar and the stretch shortening cycle moreso than a pl lifter typicaly will.

the bulgarian method of weightlifting would have an o lifter maxing on at least one lift per workout with 2-3 workouts per day 6-7 days per week. john broz uses a dialed back version of the bulgarian method for his atheletes(mendes)[/quote]

If it isn’t moving slowly than it isn’t a max lift. It may be close like >90% but there is simply no way people move a true max as quickly as the Rez squats above.

The bulgarian method also burned out the vast majority of lifters who used that system.

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I dunno, it’s possible that it’s a 1RM just given all the rebound they use. Five more pounds and it wouldn’t have enough upward speed to get through the sticking point. Ever seen an Oly lifter fail at the clean because it was juuuuuuust too much to blast through the squat portion?

1 Like
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[quote]MisterMagoo wrote:
I dunno, it’s possible that it’s a 1RM just given all the rebound they use. Five more pounds and it wouldn’t have enough upward speed to get through the sticking point. Ever seen an Oly lifter fail at the clean because it was juuuuuuust too much to blast through the squat portion?[/quote]

Are you blind? It was still a 600lbs. front squat. How many people do you know that back squat that much? Not every PL uses the wide stance technique. Watch Captain Kirk and Shane Hamman, both narrow to medium stance and minimal gear.

BTW is big Shane’s any less impressive because he dive bombs and gets “rebound”.

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[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]iluvgmas wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:
Olympic lifts are largely technique based. Because they need to maintain/refine their technique, they have to lift more frequently but with a lower % of their 1 rep max. If their already working on their snatch/clean and jerk why not do some squats as well.

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a video of an O-lifter doing a true max effort squat. The video of Rezazadeh above looked like he was using maybe 85% of his 1 rep max. I’m not saying they don’t do it (although I’m sure they don’t do it every day like one poster above said), I’ve just never seen it - an O-lifter doing a real grinder for a single.[/quote]

that vid of mendes is a 1rm(cant speak for the rez vid but i bet its a max effort lift), they dont look like grinders because oly lifters train and compete in an explosive sport, oly lifters will take advantage of the whip of the bar and the stretch shortening cycle moreso than a pl lifter typicaly will.

the bulgarian method of weightlifting would have an o lifter maxing on at least one lift per workout with 2-3 workouts per day 6-7 days per week. john broz uses a dialed back version of the bulgarian method for his atheletes(mendes)[/quote]

If it isn’t moving slowly than it isn’t a max lift. It may be close like >90% but there is simply no way people move a true max as quickly as the Rez squats above.
.[/quote]

wrong

was that not a true 1rm?
i dont know if thats a 2rm for rez or not, but oly lifters move quickly because that is the nature of the sport

burning out on the bulgarian method? thats kind of the point, if an athelete is too weak mentally to keep on pushing when he is burnt out then he has no buisness training in that manner. everyone who uses the bulgarian method/high volume training is burnt out, thats the idea.

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I have read this whole thread and I’m still confused what is being argued or supported or denied or anything here.

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[quote]dumbbellhead wrote:
I have read this whole thread and I’m still confused what is being argued or supported or denied or anything here.[/quote]

x2

seriously, wtf

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[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:

[quote]dumbbellhead wrote:
I have read this whole thread and I’m still confused what is being argued or supported or denied or anything here.[/quote]

x2

seriously, wtf[/quote]

The questions being raised are:

Should Powerlifters ever train at the same high frequency as Bulgarian Weightlifters? My answer is Powerlifters are too lazy, or stubborn to try, so no one has found out.

Is the Weightlifting style squat a legitimate technique for maximizing the squat for powerlifting? My answer is RAW yes, single ply sometimes, multi ply no.

Can you still train with high frequency if you are not squatting like a Weightlifter? My answer is yes. Others are saying no because multiply squat style does not involve high speed lifting.

Are front squats relevant to training the back squat if you are not cleaning? My answer is No.

Do Weightlifters ever max out their squat? Yes, but only for fun, and not for meets. Personally I think this is partially why they have a faster progression in squats, because they are not maxing as often, if ever, they don’t peak, and thus don’t stall.

I think thats covered everyone’s arguments so far.

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I can’t stand the term “olympic lifting” either. Oh so you lift in the olympics, ok…it’s weightlifting damn it! Simple as that.

You said, if I understood what you were saying, that very few seem to train the weightlifting the way it truly should be trained. Well, there are many ways to train for it, and since it’s such a huge challenge for the whole body, I don’t think there even are exercises that are completely irrelevant to this endeavour.

There is lots of weightlifting dogma around that I oppose strongly, and I think that some people in the community (some of the “gurus”) are spreading disinformation on purpose (no-one can really be that dumb to say what some of those people are saying), and then the amateur lifters repeat what they say. Thus, we have bunch of people who are so lost it’s ridiculous.

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[quote]forevernade wrote:

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:

[quote]dumbbellhead wrote:
I have read this whole thread and I’m still confused what is being argued or supported or denied or anything here.[/quote]

x2

seriously, wtf[/quote]

The questions being raised are:

Should Powerlifters ever train at the same high frequency as Bulgarian Weightlifters? My answer is Powerlifters are too lazy, or stubborn to try, so no one has found out.

Is the Weightlifting style squat a legitimate technique for maximizing the squat for powerlifting? My answer is RAW yes, single ply sometimes, multi ply no.

Can you still train with high frequency if you are not squatting like a Weightlifter? My answer is yes. Others are saying no because multiply squat style does not involve high speed lifting.

Are front squats relevant to training the back squat if you are not cleaning? My answer is No.

Do Weightlifters ever max out their squat? Yes, but only for fun, and not for meets. Personally I think this is partially why they have a faster progression in squats, because they are not maxing as often, if ever, they don’t peak, and thus don’t stall.

I think thats covered everyone’s arguments so far.[/quote]

Dude if you read my first post I was agreeing with you. I can not argue with your opinions, there are pretty spot on. OLers do “work” harder in terms of volume than Plers. Remember heavy squats are typically their second or third lift of the training session and not the first. PLer’s and BB’s have a “squat” day that they get all geeked up for and treat it like a holiday. OLer’s squat every freaking day! I think narrow/OL style is better for raw squatting.

BTW I use the term “olympic lifting” purely for clarification.

I also question MisterMagoo’s training and more importantly competition lifting experience. I have competed numerous times in OL, PL, and strongman for the last 10years. I know the difference between the training methods and how they feel.

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As Jesse Marunde would say:

SQUAT MORE!!

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Guess I am just lazy.

Or stubborn.

I’m gonna go with stubborn.

Why is this an argument? If squatting heavy once a week is leading to gains and improvement, keep it up. If its not, up the volume.

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I feel like it’s not an arguement, just a discussion on squatting.

A geared lifter may not want to squat more frequently because it’s a hassle. And weightlifters grind less because, as it’s been said, not helpful to grind a clean or snatch.

IME, I wouldn’t do something everyday unless it was for a specified reason for a short period. I generally stive to do things twice a week. My father, who introduced me to powerlifting, always told me, if I sucked at something, do it more often.

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This frequency topic is something that really gets me thinking…

We all know that one can reach a huge squat by doing both low frequency training(once a week) or high frequency (6, maybe more times a week). People always use the example of olympic lifters to prove the point that powerlifters could squat way more often than they think they can. But what if we thought the oposite? If the poundages oly lifters squat can be attained by squating once or twice a week, maybe they could train the squat less often and devote that time and energy to the more technical fast lifts. Its like muay thai fighters who distance run 6 days a week, twice a day, more than many running athletes.

Maybe i’m talking nonsense, cause i dont know nothing about oly lifting, but its a theory i would like to see tested.

39

Americans typically don’t spend enough time on the classic lifts. Bulgurians on the other hand have taken the sport specificity approach to OLing to the extreme. 4 lifts only, snatch, clean & jerk, front squat, and back squat. Ivan Abj. said by the end of his coaching career his best lifters didn’t even back squat anymore. They would train to a daily max on all lifts, then possibly a percent off that (yet usually 90% or greater).

If we look at strength as a skill and not a physical trait that make sense. You must practice skills (i.e. motor patterns) very often to get great (not just good) at them. Performing accessory or supplemental lifts can negatively affect the motor patterns of the classic lifts. Yeah, I know they are great for improving “weak points” or preventing “imbalances”, we’ve all been told that. But I contend they also negatively affect our recovery ability, create different sticking points, and train new unnecessary motor patterns.

40

The norwegian PL team seem to train with a quite high frequency and get good results, their juniors seem especially impressive. I’m not sure about the specifics but I think they squat 3-4 times per week and deadlift is a bit lower frequency. Their weights are kept pretty low on the raw training, no idea about their gear training so they might go heavier there for all I know.

I also know there are some swedish lifters who have tried similar training lately with decent results.

[quote]Crow wrote:
BTW is big Shane’s any less impressive because he dive bombs and gets “rebound”.[/quote]

I’m glad you mentioned Shane, probably my favorite squatter ever. His form and his speed on the descent is just incredible…