Help Dr. Berardi

Some thoughts on this issue:

The evidence was in on the book well before I sent out that email - 10 of 12 Amazon reviews were positive! I wasn’t pissed at that - that’s a damn good approval rating for those who chose to post.

So why the email? Well, here’s how the free market works - people need social proof before making purchases. They want to know others like them have done what they’re considering and that those people turned out ok.

Since I have been getting at least 20 positive mails (with results and pics) regarding the book every day since it came out, to me, that’s some pretty good social proof! So I wanted to encourage these folks to make their opinions heard too.

I’ll never apologize for asking my readership to say something positive about my work or anyone else’s that they enjoy. That’s my bias - if someone’s doing something excellent, share it with everyone you know. Excellence needs to be rewarded.

Now, up to this point, I?d imagine you see nothing wrong with this? Yet here’s where the ethical question comes in.

THE ETHICAL IMPLICATIONS

Quite frankly, I wonder how many of the posters here have ever walked through their logical positions on any topic. This isn’t a dig - rather, it’s a simple comment that’s very relevant as we are talking about ethics and ethics are based on logical systems and analysis.

Before making decisions I draw a logical chart to investigate the implications of my actions. Don’t doubt for a second that I neglected this before sending my email.

Here’s the ethics/logic chart I drew up including my premises. If you’re going to criticize my conclusions you might as well first see my premises and then share yours. Here is where I began:

**Books sell well when people say good things about them. People say good things about books that are good. Therefore books that sell well are good books.

**Books don’t sell well when people say bad things about them. People say bad things about books that suck. Therefore books that don’t sell well suck.

(These represent the prevalent theory on sales ? social proof drives sales ? as discussed above).

As I feel pretty strongly that my book is good and have heard a large majority of people saying good things, I surmise that my book should be selling well (which it is).

Of course, additional premises include:

**People say bad things when they have a negative experience.

**People say good things when they have a positive experience.

**More people say bad things when they have a negative experience than say good things when they have a positive experience.

So here’s my next line of logic:

**When more people say bad things when they have negative experience than say good things when they have a positive experience, the average response is artifically skewed toward the negative.

From this:

**When positive feedback is encouraged, the average response better reflects public opinion.

Now, this is where objections are currently being raised. In other words, you’d have no beef if I just suggested opinions be shared. Yet you do think it’s unethical for me to offer reward for those opinions. Here’s your beef (your premises, a take off of what I posted above):

**Books sell well when people say good things about them. People say good things about books that are good OR WHEN AUTHORS BRIBE PEOPLE TO LIE AND SAY THEY’RE GOOD. Therefore books that sell well are good books OR THEY’RE BAD BOOKS THAT AUTHORS BRIBED PEOPLE TO SAY GOOD THINGS ABOUT.

So, if I?m not mistaken, this is where you object. You believe I bribed people to say good things about my book and that tampers with the natural, objective order of things, artifically skewing the results of opinion toward the positive.

You were ok if the mean response is skewed toward the negative. But you?re not ok if the balance is swung toward the positive ? especially if the balance was swung thru a bribe (which we can all admit is ethically questionable).

So the true issue becomes this ? was it a bribe?

Let?s define bribe: A bribe is payment made to a person in a position of trust to corrupt his judgment.

Therefore, here is the next premise:

**For my actions to be unethical, my offer would have to be a payment significant enough to corrupt one’s judgement.

I may be wrong, but I never considered a mere book chapter adequate to corrupt the judgement or integrity of man. Seriously, maybe I think too highly of fellow man. I never for one second considered my email as a bribe.

To be honest, perhaps this is where I went awry. Perhaps people can be bought with a book chapter. I never thought that would be the case.

So, here’s the logic:

**JB offered a book chapter for positive comments about his book. Offering a book chapter constitutes a bribe. Offering bribes is unethical. JB is unethical.

So, if you believe a book chapter is enough payment to corrupt individuals then, logically, my actions were ethically questionable.

My premise is that this was not significant enough a reward to have someone compromise their integrity. Therefore I don’t consider this ethically questionable. So here’s my logic:

**JB offered a book chapter for positive comments about his book. Offering a book chapter does not constitute a bribe. Offering bribes is unethical. Yet JB didn?t bribe anyone so his actions are ok.

Listen, if we come to a stalemate, at this point, it?s ok. I mean, people don?t always have the same premises. I?m comfortable with mine at this point especially because I don?t think man can be bought for a book chapter when I was asking for positive reviews regarding a book.

Remember, I was asking for positive reviews for some writing of mine. The reward was more writing of mine. A bribe has to be something of value. To someone who dislikes or is ambivalent about my work, this chapter would have little value - certainly the value wouldn’t force the person to corrupt their judgement. Again, raising the question - is this a bribe at all?

If you still think it’s a bribe - then I can see your ethical position and respect it.

If not, you can’t maintain that my providing a book chapter in exchange for a positive review unethical unless there?s some other premise you object to prior.

Ok, to wrap up - my email was carefully considered based on certain premises I hold to be accurate. Therefore I feel no remorse in my actions. If you hold a different ethical position, I can appreciate that. Yet, as I encourage my students, so I’ll encourage you - be sure your positions are based on logic not on gut feelings. Ethics reside in the brain, not the gut.

This sort of thing happened recently when a magazine publication I subscribe to asked its readership to post their thoughts on the magazine online WITH NO MATERIAL RECOMPENSATION whatsoever.

The last review for the magazine on Amazon.com had been done close to two years ago. The magazine had changed significantly during that time, and the Editor in Chief requested more updated reviews from the magazine’s readers.

Needless to say, the industry this magazine covers is dominated by l33t hax0rs who jumped all over this. Message boards were literally flooded by users bitching/moaning/whining about this, saying the magazine was buying new readers and trying to skew Amazon.com’s review system.

It came to the point where the Editor-in-Chief actually visited these message forums and became embroiled in lengthy arguments that rival the scope of the Anabolic Diet thread here on T-Mag.

I find this completely ridiculous - nothing is preventing those unhappy with the book from posting. And like John says, those who are unhappy are more likely to voice their comments.

I myself use Amazon.com primarily as a resource for finding new books, and rely heavily on readers’ reviews when making my purchases. It only makes sense to try and generate reviews from a more representative sampling of individuals.

Thank you, Dr. Berardi, for replying to this thread. It shows class.

I also believe that people should be encouraged to voice positive opinions as much as possible, especially on the Internet, for the reasons you listed. However, the question is: what form does this “encouragement” take?

I’ll agree with this, except that you should have taken the “LIE AND” and the “BAD” out of it. People say good things about books whenever there is a reward offered. People do all kinds of things when there is some sort of gain involved. (Why else would people work at jobs they hate? Why does prositution exist?) I don’t believe that the people who posted on Amazon lied for you. What I believe is that, absent the offer of something for free, they wouldn’t have posted. As, in fact, they didn’t.

If you want to encourage people to post, fine and good. If you want to give them something for doing so, well, not so fine and good. In fact, Amazon’s guidelines say, in part, that “the use of the [review] Service for commercial purposes such as advertising, promotion, or solicitation” is prohibited. (Here’s the link if you want to see for yourself: Amazon.com) Is there a commercial purpose involved? Obviously there is: to sell more books. Is it “solicitation” to offer something for positive comments? Most any reasonable definition would say yes. Is it “promotion”? Again, yes.

I’m not really sure where you got this from. I would be just as pissed off if it were one of your competitors offering people who had not liked the book something to go on Amazon and post bad reviews. Same ethical issue. But - to the best of my knowledge - no one has done that.

You gave a definition of “bribe”. (Ref?) But there are others. My dictionary, for example, says:

verb (trans)
To persuade (someone) to act in one’s favor…by a gift of money or other inducement.

noun
A sum of money or other inducement offered or given in this way.

I think that, again, there is no question that there was an inducement offered. As to the point of the inducement being worth enough to make someone act in a way that they wouldn’t normally act, well, it’s pretty obvious that it is, in fact, worth that much to a lot of people. All you have to do is look at the number of reviews. 14 (in the space of seven months) before the offer and - what? - somewhere around 100 after (in the space of a week).

If, in fact, you are okay with your moral position in this matter, I really have to ask why you would change the wording of the email (as I mentioned above) when you posted your first message on this thread. I don’t understand that at all. I also have to say that anyone (not just JMB) who tries to argue that “anyone can post, not just those with positive opinions” is being pretty disingenuous. Of course the posts are going to be positive.

In any case, my position, laid out in the manner requested, is this:

PREMISE: Products should be allowed to live or die on their own merits.
PREMISE: Advertising is fine, so long as you don’t lie.
PREMISE: Soliciting honest opinions is fine.
PREMISE: In a situation such as the Amazon reviews, it is implicitly assumed that all opinions posted are from people who were moved enough by a product, one way or the other, to get off their butts and post. It is further implicitly assumed that there is no reward for such posting. I.e., the opinions are “honest”.
PREMISE: If a reward does, in fact, exist, then the opinion posted in return for said reward can no longer be considered “honest”. This is especially true if the person reading the opinion is not aware that a reward exists. (Note that this would NOT exclude opinions that were specifically asked for, but in return for which no reward was offered. No problem with encouraging positive feedback.)
PREMISE: Anyone who offers such a reward for an opinion is not acting in a completely ethical and aboveboard manner.

These are my premises. I think that the conclusion to be drawn is self-evident.

Again, I want to say that while I object to the way that this particular issue has been handled, I have nothing but respect for Dr. Berardi otherwise. I just think that this is a misstep.

If you want to encourage people to post, fine and good. If you want to give them something for doing so, well, not so fine and good. In fact, Amazon’s guidelines say, in part, that “the use of the [review] Service for commercial purposes such as advertising, promotion, or solicitation” is prohibited. (Here’s the link if you want to see for yourself: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/14279631/002-4633231-0109660 ) Is there a commercial purpose involved? Obviously there is: to sell more books. Is it “solicitation” to offer something for positive comments? Most any reasonable definition would say yes. Is it “promotion”? Again, yes.


Here are the Amazon Guidelines For Reviews:

Review Guidelines

The recommended length is 75 to 300 words.

Your comments should focus on the product. You must also include a valid e-mail address, but you can opt not to display your e-mail address if you do not want others to have access to it. The best reviews include not only whether you liked or disliked a product, but also why. Feel free to mention other products that you consider similar and how this product rates in comparison to them. Comments that are not specific to the product or that violate our guidelines in any way, may be removed from the Amazon.com Web site at any time, at our discretion. Please limit yourself to one comment per item.

Amazon.com wants to know about your product safety issues. If you have safety concerns about the product you are reviewing, please e-mail us at product-safety@amazon.com. Please make sure to include all information about the product (product title, and ASIN or manufacturer’s SKU) and the details of the incident.

Amazon.com is proud to provide this forum for you to air your opinions on your favorite (or not-so-favorite) products. While we appreciate your time and comments, we respectfully request that you refrain from including the following in your review:

Comments on other reviews or features visible on the page. (This information, and its position on the page, is subject to change without notice.)

Notification that our catalog has typos in it. If you’d like to tell us about a specific problem, please e-mail us.

Profanity, obscenities, or spiteful remarks

Time-sensitive material (e.g., promotional tours, seminars, lectures, etc.)

Single-word reviews. We want to know why you liked or disliked the product.
Comments focusing solely on the actors, directors, authors, or artists.

No spoilers! Please don’t reveal crucial plot elements.

Phone numbers, mail addresses.

More than one URL.

Availability, price, or alternative ordering/shipping information.

Solicitations for helpful votes.

Any review in violation of these guidelines might not be posted or could be removed from the Amazon.com Web site at any time.

**So, the only thing in the review section is solicitation and Im not quite so sure, based on the definition of solicitation, that this occurred. For sure I solicited reviews from readers of the book. Why wouldn’t I ask for their positive reviews? But the prohbition is to solicitation IN the reviews. So I don’t think Im crossing any of Amazon’s boundaries.


You gave a definition of “bribe”. (Ref?) But there are others. My dictionary, for example, says:

verb (trans)
To persuade (someone) to act in one’s favor…by a gift of money or other inducement.

noun
A sum of money or other inducement offered or given in this way.

I think that, again, there is no question that there was an inducement offered. As to the point of the inducement being worth enough to make someone act in a way that they wouldn’t normally act, well, it’s pretty obvious that it is, in fact, worth that much to a lot of people.

All you have to do is look at the number of reviews. 14 (in the space of seven months) before the offer and - what? - somewhere around 100 after (in the space of a week).


You’re right in that they changed their actions regarding posting reviews. But was it the chapter or simply the request to post positive reviews if you liked the book?

Yes, I agree that the influx of reviews was promoted by my mail. But I can’t see why asking my readers to put their reviews in a public place objectionable.

Of course, the free chapter for doing so is the real area of contention. So, to object, I believe you have to think that the offering of the chapter caused both an influx of reviews AND a series of false positive reviews.

Personally, I imagined that I would have gotten a similar number of positive reviews without the chapter offering. However, in a snap decision, as I have a new project on the horizon, I threw it out there as a “thank you” - again, not expecting the chapter to sway opinion.

And I maintain it didn’t. I believe the email would have generated a similar response with our without chapter. I can’t see a free chapter compromising a man’s integrity.


If, in fact, you are okay with your moral position in this matter, I really have to ask why you would change the wording of the email (as I mentioned above) when you posted your first message on this thread. I don’t understand that at all. I also have to say that anyone (not just JMB) who tries to argue that “anyone can post, not just those with positive opinions” is being pretty disingenuous. Of course the posts are going to be positive.


PM me on this one – I assure you the reason is justified but it’s not public domain.


In any case, my position, laid out in the manner requested, is this:

PREMISE: Products should be allowed to live or die on their own merits.

***This book only doesn’t if you believe my offer of a chapter changed people’s perceptions of its merits.

PREMISE: Advertising is fine, so long as you don’t lie.

***Im not sure where the lies are?

PREMISE: Soliciting honest opinions is fine.

PREMISE: In a situation such as the Amazon reviews, it is implicitly assumed that all opinions posted are from people who were moved enough by a product, one way or the other, to get off their butts and post. It is further implicitly assumed that there is no reward for such posting. I.e., the opinions are “honest”.

***If you knew the process of how Amazon works in this regard you’d realize that it rarely works this way. Many successful books are championed by readers who liked them upon the urging of the writers.

Again, I still fail to see how it’s objectionable to ask for people who liked the book to say they liked it publicly.

PREMISE: If a reward does, in fact, exist, then the opinion posted in return for said reward can no longer be considered “honest”. This is especially true if the person reading the opinion is not aware that a reward exists. (Note that this would NOT exclude opinions that were specifically asked for, but in return for which no reward was offered. No problem with encouraging positive feedback.)

****Ok, but the assumption you make is that the reward itself will change the opinion. You said that if I ask for it, it’s ok. But if I give something after asking for it, it’s not ok. Implied is that what I’d give can alter the reviews. I assumed that there’d be no way this would happen (for reasons listed above).

PREMISE: Anyone who offers such a reward for an opinion is not acting in a completely ethical and aboveboard manner.

*****Again, like I said, I think the nature of the reward is important. I assumed the reward to be benign. Im assuming you think it’s potent?

These are my premises. I think that the conclusion to be drawn is self-evident.

***Yep, I appreciate this discussion and can learn from it. That makes it of great value to me. People who say “that’s wrong - nuff said” don’t contribute at all.


Again, I want to say that while I object to the way that this particular issue has been handled, I have nothing but respect for Dr. Berardi otherwise. I just think that this is a misstep.


Thanks for the caveat and the concluding statement. It makes this a true discussion where two folks can debate a point, perhaps even agree to disagree, without taking personal shots.

Actually, the prohibition seems to be more or less all-encompassing. Nowhere does it say that it’s limited to solicitation in the reviews. It just says solicitation (and promotion). And this is on the “Amazon Home Guidelines” page.

But I have an idea. Why don’t you ask Amazon and see what they say? If they agree with you, then no problem.

This is a good point. See below.

[quote]Yes, I agree that the influx of reviews was promoted by my mail. But I can’t see why asking my readers to put their reviews in a public place objectionable.

Of course, the free chapter for doing so is the real area of contention. So, to object, I believe you have to think that the offering of the chapter caused both an influx of reviews AND a series of false positive reviews.

Personally, I imagined that I would have gotten a similar number of positive reviews without the chapter offering. However, in a snap decision, as I have a new project on the horizon, I threw it out there as a “thank you” - again, not expecting the chapter to sway opinion.

And I maintain it didn’t. I believe the email would have generated a similar response with our without chapter. I can’t see a free chapter compromising a man’s integrity. [/quote]
Well, only you know what you really thought about the free chapter, whether it was a bribe, an incentive, a thank you or something else. However, I think that if you look at what many of the responses have been on this thread, you can tell what other people are thinking about it. You’ll see that they are referring to it as a “reward” and wondering where to PM you or email you so they can claim it. This is from the initial post on down. I think that it’s pretty positive evidence that the chapter had a significant impact on their decision to give you a review.

Again, I agree with you that people would have responded to a simple call for more positive reviews without the free chapter. How many would have is another matter. Unfortunately, we’ll never know.

PM sent, although it looks like you have that feature turned off… :wink: If you don’t get it, would you mind emailing me instead? Thanks.

and

See above. Based on the responses on this thread (to say nothing of the number of reviews on Amazon), I think that it’s pretty clear that to the people on this site, at least, it is, in fact, a potent reward. Can you really argue otherwise when people are asking how they can PM you so that they can claim what you’ve promised them?

I’ll say it again. I’ve enjoyed your work, learned from it, and know people who’ve met you personally who say good things about you. It’s just this one issue.

Oh boy…I’m sorry, but this thread is turning into a classic. Somehow it reminds me of previous presidential statements…

’ I smoked pot, but…I didn’t inhale’…’

‘I had no sexual relations with that women’…

Come on, folks…drag your heads out of the ethical small print…

Dr B is a great guy, who helped us all tremendously…Free of charge!!..Logically he didn’t slave away to get a doctorate to watch the plants grow, so…among other things, he sells books…the contents of those books…regardless if you read them or not, must be good,…simply can’t be any other way, because it’s accoring to the same lines of the information he shares here with us…FREE!..

so, if he asks to hook him up, regardless in what manner he asked for the help or how he formulated the request…Stop wining and just hook him up!!..Any repercussions this ‘help’ might have from Amazon…is a bridge for him to cross when he gets there, not??..

Please, don’t let him waste his precious time on defending his actions, while there’s nothing to defend…No matter how the definitons, formulations, premises…I think it’s quite clear what he required, and why he required it…No rocket science!..

I also think a small token of appreciation for all his efforts is not too much to ask…Ethical or not ethical…Big deal!..Let him rather use the time to figure out our next dietary roadblock!..

Just my 2 pennies worth…

[quote]Kliplemet wrote:
PharmD Pete wrote:
For any of you T-Nationers that have purchase the Scrawny to Brawny book and liked it, go post some positive feedback on Amazon.com.

Apparently there have been some unitelligent reviews of the book posted and he wants those of us who have had success to help him out and post our positive results/reviews.

As a reward, he will send you a free chapter from a new book he is working on if you send him the link to your post.

Help JB, get reward. Cool.

does JB need help? I thought he had all kinds of “elite athletes” knocking on his door constantly?[/quote]

He already wrote the book, so he’s trying to increase the sales and the sales will also encourage the publisher to pay him more for his next book too.

[quote]Kliplemet wrote:
PharmD Pete wrote:
For any of you T-Nationers that have purchase the Scrawny to Brawny book and liked it, go post some positive feedback on Amazon.com.

Apparently there have been some unitelligent reviews of the book posted and he wants those of us who have had success to help him out and post our positive results/reviews.

As a reward, he will send you a free chapter from a new book he is working on if you send him the link to your post.

Help JB, get reward. Cool.

does JB need help? I thought he had all kinds of “elite athletes” knocking on his door constantly?[/quote]

sarcasm is so uncalled for…

I just want to say that I would love to learn the art of debate from Dr. Berardi. When are those internships coming!??!!?

[quote]Kliplemet wrote:
PharmD Pete wrote:
For any of you T-Nationers that have purchase the Scrawny to Brawny book and liked it, go post some positive feedback on Amazon.com.

Apparently there have been some unitelligent reviews of the book posted and he wants those of us who have had success to help him out and post our positive results/reviews.

As a reward, he will send you a free chapter from a new book he is working on if you send him the link to your post.

Help JB, get reward. Cool.

does JB need help? I thought he had all kinds of “elite athletes” knocking on his door constantly?[/quote]

What kind of implication is this? If you’d like evidence of the elite teams I work with I’m not shy in providing it. There need be no shroud of mystery.

If you’d like to believe this is all made-up, feel free.

Yet, posting such implications here does both you and I an injustice.

Mostly you, though.

In other words, if you’re foolish enough to actually believe that I don’t work with a large group of elite athletes, say so outright.

Thinly veiled slander is one thing - something you may have gotten a chuckle over.

However, if you wanna roll with the big dogs, bring it out in the open. Say what’s on your mind so it can be falsified - or don’t.

So, which do you vote for:

Dr Berardi does work with a large group of elite athletes.

Dr Berardi does not work with a large group of elite athletes.

I stand behind my work and my words. Do you?

Amazon is the main source to buy from for most international buyers.

What author wouldn’t worry about negative reviews, especially if the book is ‘technical’ or science based, and the negative reviews are coming from people with no technical or science based experience.

It’s like publishing an advanced music theory book, and having a bunch of guys slander the technical content even though they can only play the same two chords.

If I were John and had a large number of fans, I too would remind them to not just send an email or post on this site, but to be heard on amazon.

Good to see it up to 5 stars. I checked out the book today and all I can say is it’s packed full of a lot of useful information. Well presented and layed out with many photos and backed up with technical content coming from years of experience.

Keep posting the reviews.
Great work John.

This thread is simply ridiculous…

There are gazillions of people on late night television selling the ab-thigh-and what-the fuck-master and nobody gives a shit, but at the very second Berardi, gasp, does something that could , if seen in the right light, under a certain angle, if you tilt your head just a little bit and squint real hard, be seen as questionable, people kind of lose it…

Pfffft…

If his book wasn?t as good as advertised, his e-mail to his customers could have killed him rating -wise. He not only seems to be very confident when his work is concerned, apparently his customers agree with him.

Even IF some people were tricked into buying his book, they would have been tricked into buying something that actually works instead of all this useless garbage they are tricked into buying each day.

On a not completely unrelated topic:

I have no idea how some of you people think business is done. Yes, people lie, people bribe and are bribed, 2/3 of all decisions are made behind the curtains, old friends are not forgotten even if they have a little bit of bad publicity at the moment…

I am NOT saying that Dr Berardi ever has done or would do any such things, I am saying that I have done them and will do them again BECAUSE.IT.IS.NECESSARY.

And I consider myself to be one of the good guys…Honestly… Never lied to a customer, never was the one to break a deal first…

So could some of you please pop your head out of your ass and stop dreaming of a fairy-tale economy and fairy-tale business ethics that do not work in real life?

Pussies…

Great post, Orion. “Moral outrage” and righteous indignation is often hiding a lot of hypocrisy.

By the way…the following quote was made by one of the major Authors and Contributors, not simply one of the members:

“To be honest, the idea of posting on most public forums ranks just below being scalded with burning oil and having my finger and toenails slowly pulled out with pliers”.

Believe me; we ALL have lost because of how little they post now (and probably will post in the future).

Mufasa

[quote]orion wrote:
There are gazillions of people on late night television selling the ab-thigh-and what-the fuck-master and nobody gives a shit, but at the very second Berardi, gasp, does something that could , if seen in the right light, under a certain angle, if you tilt your head just a little bit and squint real hard, be seen as questionable, people kind of lose it…[/quote]

Nice way to trivialize what MANY people considered to be an ethical blunder. I think the problem is that people like Berardi, trust him, and then something like this happens, and they start to question what kind of person he might be. If you’re saying we can’t question those that we respect, I worry for how you think the rest of the world should work.

So the ends always justify the means? And just because what Berardi writes may be factual and helpful to people that understand it doesn’t mean that it’s a book for everybody. I have some great textbooks from college that no layperson would like at all…they’re way over the common man’s head. If part of the problem is that the book doesn’t communicate its information effectively to idiots, then that is a legitimate issue with the book. Some things are marketed to idiots and some things aren’t.

Ah, so ethical breaches are okay as long as others are doing them too? And I don’t agree with you at all that business is done that way as often as you think, nor do I think it is necessary to do business that way.

So because you saw these choices as “necessary”, they are right? I highly doubt that these choices were “necessary”. Plenty of people make choices that they think are “necessary”, but that leads to a lot of crime in our society. A lot of good things too, but just because you consider something “necessary” doesn’t mean that it really is.

Yeah, bad of us to actually look for ethical behavior and not to call a spade a spade. I’m glad we’re living in a time when integrity means nothing as long as you get the job done.

You are morally bankrupt. There is no other way around it.

With this issue, it seems to me that Berardi just worded his original email poorly. A LOT of people got the impression that something shady was going on, not just a select few people. Does this mean that is what Berardi intended? No, because we’ve all been misunderstood by others.

I can’t speak for Berardi’s motives, so I won’t try to, but I can speak for many people that took that email to mean something different than what he described. Doesn’t mean he’s wrong, or other people are wrong, just that there was a miscommunication.

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Great post, Orion. “Moral outrage” and righteous indignation is often hiding a lot of hypocrisy. [/quote]

Damn, I just lost a lot of respect for you for agreeing with a guy who considers ethics to have no value.

But I guess since none of us are completely pure that we shouldn’t ever cast stones anywhere. Remind me not to vote in the next election, because I cheated on a test in 3rd grade.

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

“To be honest, the idea of posting on most public forums ranks just below being scalded with burning oil and having my finger and toenails slowly pulled out with pliers”.

Believe me; we ALL have lost because of how little they post now (and probably will post in the future).

Mufasa
[/quote]

Mufasa, I don’t see how that is related to this thread. I thought the latest discussion here is whether JB did something unethical or not.

Again, we are not talking about trolls, everyone here has given their opionion, which are all legitamate.

Fahd

This is becoming is stupid thread, who are we to decide what is moral and whats not.

Lets agree to disagree

Fahd

RickJames stated:

“Doesn’t mean he’s wrong, or other people are wrong, just that there was a miscommunication”

“But I guess since none of us are completely pure that we shouldn’t ever cast stones anywhere”…

That’s all that I’m trying to say, Rick…

I’m done with this thread and topic since it’s led not only to misunderstanding, but being “called out” on other Public Forums. (Which is something I never have, and never will, do; to me that’s low-class and “unethical”).

A lot of you guys need to start looking in the mirror.

Mufasa

fahd:

When people read a thread, they will personally decide whether are not a post is relavent to a topic or not.

Mufasa

[quote]fahd wrote:
This is becoming is stupid thread, who are we to decide what is moral and whats not.

Lets agree to disagree

Fahd[/quote]

Who then decides morality? Of course it’s the people.

Now, yours may differ from mine for various reasons, but I decide what is mpral to me. This then relates to how I would post given a certain situation.

To chime in late:

I don’t like what he did. If he didn’t think it was such a morally iffy thing, why not just start a thread here to all readers of this site? Why the personal PM’s or e-mails? Why, because I think he knew that, at the very least, he was way pushing the envelope.