[quote]MookJong wrote:
TheJoker wrote:
I think its poor form for an author to request ‘help’ from his audience in this regard.
What ‘help’ are you referring to?
If you still think he offered a reward for a positive review, you are mistaken.
Read his post more carefully. He asked for opinions.
[/quote]
So he sent the new chapter to everyone on his newsletter list regardless of whether or not they submitted a response to Amazon?
[quote]TheJoker wrote:
MookJong wrote:
TheJoker wrote:
I think its poor form for an author to request ‘help’ from his audience in this regard.
What ‘help’ are you referring to?
If you still think he offered a reward for a positive review, you are mistaken.
Read his post more carefully. He asked for opinions.
So he sent the new chapter to everyone on his newsletter list regardless of whether or not they submitted a response to Amazon?
[/quote]
Perhaps you’re blind … or maybe I am.
How about you show me exactly where he specifically asks people to post positive opinions?
[quote]Beatnik wrote:
You do not have to elicite support. Your material will stand on it own, after a month or two good reviews will come in on their own.[/quote]
Na, you’re wrong.
People with positive comments email me personally. People with negative comments post all over the web.
That’s the point - people who have complaints make alot of noise. People who like something have no reason to make noise. They’re content. It’s basic human nature.
If you deal with a pleasant sales person you just go on and have a nice day. If you deal with a crappy one, you complain to management. In the end, management may get 20 complaints for every 1 praise. Does that mean that their sales staff sucks. Maybe yes, maybe no. It’s hard to tell from the unrepresentative sample above.
So, on a place like Amazon, where these ratings literally influence thousands of opinions, it’s important to really poll audience approval.
Ive got a list of 10K who’ve downloaded a free 5 day course at scrawnytobrawny.com. Most of them have the book. I asked for them to post their opinions so that their praise and criticisms can be aired.
Hey JB maybe you should rerelease it in about ten years since a good amount of info you write about is way before it’s time then the lay public might give you better reviews. But I can speak for a friend of mine you might know Paul Sommers wow he looked great after working with you.
woops I am writing this as I sit in cat scan that would be Paul Southern sorry bout the mistake.
Trolls, the Internet and Commerce
This is how one of Dr. B’s book “reviews” began:
“…You people are such Berardi schmucks…”
Unbiased?
Right…
You guys have got to understand that the Internet Troll is the equivalent of what the vandal, shoplifter, burglar or saboteur is to the “brick-and-mortar” business. Their aim is not to enlighten, or to provide anything beneficial to anyone. Their goal is either to get gain for themselves; or in the case of the Internet, simply to criticize and destroy.
They are relentless. They will often have entire Websites dedicated to destroying another person or institution; they often hide behind “objectivity”, “free-speech” or “keeping it real”; and they will often resort to scathing criticism of those who offer support to the object of their hate.
They are VERY transparent people; and their true intent is hardly ever hidden by their thin veil of “objectivity”. (Much like the above critic).
Dr. B has also alluded to a very well known study that one learns in “Business 101” and that is part of the orientation of just about every business that I know of.
When a person has a “negative” experience (or in the case of the Troll, often just a disdain for the object of their attacks), they will tell 8-10 people; the content or satisfied people (or the one with no ill-feelings toward the person and/or business) will often tell no one or 1-2 at most.
This truly IS human nature.
As opposed to the “brick-and-mortar” business, there are only a few ways to combat these people:
I would imagine that TC and Tim would tell us that this is a very expensive proposition; and with a business like Amazon that a) sells millions of products which can be “reviewed” and b) has operated in the red almost since it’s inception, I doubt that there is any reasonable expenditure made on moderation.
I have found that on FORUMS this works well; but only to a degree; only SOME of the time; only in very limited ways. And if ignored, these people will often leave a lot of destruction in their path. This is mostly due to the relentless and insidious nature of these people, and how people will simply “give up” rather than fight them.
To me, this is what Dr. B and Pharm-D Pete have asked; that’s all. There has been no “paying” for favorable reviews or giving prizes for favorable reviews.
In fact, Dr. B didn’t ask to edit or have any input on the content at all. It seems to me that what was asked was out of those people who found that the book was helpful, help counter those people whose aim is only to criticize and destroy.
For those critical of Dr. B’s and Pete’s request; what was the alternative?
Was it an “inappropriate” request?
When put in the context of the unregulated world of the Internet, and the relentless nature of these people hiding behind computer screens, hell-bent on criticism and destruction, I don’t think that it was.
Mufasa
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Trolls, the Internet and Commerce
This is how one of Dr. B’s book “reviews” began:
“…You people are such Berardi schmucks…”
Unbiased?
Right…
[/quote]
right.
except that this review has been mysteriously deleted from amazon, contained what some of the receivers of the email consider to be the original, unaltered copy, and was in repsonse to the 60 something great reviews posted on Nov 30. at the time, there were only 84 total reviews from the beginning of the books existence.
way to make a mockery of amazon’s review system. Mr. Berardi should get every review from Nov 30 and subsequent days off the site, and therefore eliminate whatever foul play that happened. if not, this will bite him in the ass someday.
Do you know what a troll is, Mufasa?
No…enlighten me.
Mufasa
My point is trolls are not even involved in this topic…
The posters who posted negative comments towards JB were plain ignorant and uneducated. They are entitled to their own opionions.
A troll on the other hand, is someone who intentionally go on forums and post offensive threads and posts just to provoke an reaction.
Fahd
Fair enough, fahd…
It won’t be the first time that I’ve been tripped up my names and semantics; and it won’t be the last. So if I’m using incorrect terminology, I stand corrected.
But my point is this; whether its “trolls”, “haters”, “the ignorant and uneducated” or someone who feels that they are just exercising their freedom of speech; it seems that we all tend to suffer in the end.
How?
They destroy, criticize and tear down, but offer no real viable alternatives.
For those that DO try to contribute and be helpful, they become frustrated and often don’t post nearly as much as they originally did.
This is an actual quote from one of the MAJOR contributors to this site who posts only a fraction of what they used to:
“To be honest, the idea of posting on most public forums ranks just below being scalded with burning oil and having my finger and toenails slowly pulled out with pliers”.
Believe me; we ALL have lost because of how little they post now.
Whether this whole Amazon thing was “right” or “wrong”, only the parties involved can truly answer that.
I just try to follow the “Golden Rule” in my own Life…and we would all be a lot better off if everyone would just consider it when they wish to be critical of another person or of their body of work.
Mufasa
Agreed Mufasa, bare in mind I do not disagree with your message, just a small problem with a definition.
BTW its a real shame the person you mentioned stopped contributing here, he stopped contributing the same time I started to participate in this forum.
[quote]fahd wrote:
Agreed Mufasa, bare in mind I do not disagree with your message, just a small problem with a definition.
BTW its a real shame the person you mentioned stopped contributing here, he stopped contributing the same time I started to participate in this forum.[/quote]
who?
[quote]wufwugy wrote:
who?[/quote]
My mother.
[quote]fahd wrote:
wufwugy wrote:
who?
My mother.[/quote]
goes to college.
[quote]wufwugy wrote:
fahd wrote:
Agreed Mufasa, bare in mind I do not disagree with your message, just a small problem with a definition.
BTW its a real shame the person you mentioned stopped contributing here, he stopped contributing the same time I started to participate in this forum.
who?[/quote]
A search for that quote only brings up this thread…
Micro Slash? But I was much more of a lurker, and didn’t really go to T-Nation before August…
[quote]MookJong wrote:
TheJoker wrote:
I think its poor form for an author to request ‘help’ from his audience in this regard.
What ‘help’ are you referring to?
If you still think he offered a reward for a positive review, you are mistaken.
Read his post more carefully. He asked for opinions.
[/quote]
Actually, what he posted on this thread is slightly different from the email that he sent to the people on his list. In the email, he said (and I’m quoting directly here):
"So here’s how I’d like to combat this, with your help, of course:
I’d like you to get on the web and make your rational opinion heard. Post something positive about the book at amazon.com, amazon.ca, one of the many message boards online, etc.
And when you do, send me the link to your post. For doing me this favor, I’d like to send you something. I’m working on a new book called Precision Nutrition and although it’s not yet finished, I’d like to send you a chapter from the book.
The chapter is all about individualizing your nutritional plan based on your body and your goals. I know you’ll love it!"
Notice the difference in the underlined part.
I have to agree with wufwgy here. I was very disappointed to receive this email, as I respect Dr. Berardi quite a bit and have used his advice to my benefit in the past.
There is no question that some of the opinions expressed by the reviewers on Amazon are, to put it bluntly, stupid. There is also no question that most people who liked the book aren’t going to bother to post a positive review. But you know what? That’s the way it is with every book. Not just this one.
Offering an “incentive” to post a positive review (and make no mistake, that’s what this is, no matter the wording) is an attempt to circumvent that process. It gives the book an unfair advantage over every other book that does not offer a similar incentive. It tips the scales.
A person who did not know about the email or this thread (i.e., the VAST majority of the buying public) will go to the review section of Amazon and see 10 pages of nothing but 5-star reviews. Some will buy the book based on these reviews, thinking that it must be the best thing since sliced bread.
Would they still buy it if they knew that these reviews had been written by people in exchange for something? Much less likely.
I say, let the book stand or fail on its own merits. Tampering with the review system is a mistake. (Frankly, it amounts to nothing more or less than vote-buying, which, last time I looked, is illegal). I have great respect for Dr. Berardi, but this has been a serious misstep.
IMO, the best thing to do would be to go back and delete every review, good or bad, that has been posted since Nov. 30th, and stop offering anything for further reviews. If people still want to go and post positive stuff, great. At least their reviews will be considered completely honest.
[quote]wufwugy wrote:
fahd wrote:
Agreed Mufasa, bare in mind I do not disagree with your message, just a small problem with a definition.
BTW its a real shame the person you mentioned stopped contributing here, he stopped contributing the same time I started to participate in this forum.
who?[/quote]
Sounds like Cupcake to me.
[quote]char-dawg wrote:
wufwugy wrote:
fahd wrote:
Agreed Mufasa, bare in mind I do not disagree with your message, just a small problem with a definition.
BTW its a real shame the person you mentioned stopped contributing here, he stopped contributing the same time I started to participate in this forum.
who?
Sounds like Cupcake to me.
[/quote]
haha, yeah it kinda does. im not sure if i’ve ever understood any of his posts in entirety, though.
he’s unique like that.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
To me, this is what Dr. B and Pharm-D Pete have asked; that’s all. There has been no “paying” for favorable reviews or giving prizes for favorable reviews. [/quote]
That you can say this, when the man sent out emails saying “Post a positive review and I’ll give you something” is staggering.
Simply staggering.
This presupposes that there can be no legitimate negative opinion about the book. Are you really saying this? Are all negative opinions somehow the actions of “trolls”?
The alternative was to ask for those who had a positive experience with the book to go post - and not to offer anything except thanks in return. The problem, such as it was, would have been addressed, and no one would be questioning JMB’s integrity.