[quote]humble wrote:
Much like the craziness that occurs at the hands of people who are otherwise identified by their supposed inclinations towards Islam, in no way is a true reflection on what Islam is about.
[/quote]
It’s a ‘mystery religion’. Being mysterious, it lets morons and whack jobs interpret it in however way they choose. It should be discarded.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Bill, when did you read the Quran?[/quote]
I wonder why the date that I read it would be of interest?
But as you wished, it was in about the middle of the period when I was a recording engineer, so approximately 1992, give or take a couple of years. It seemed to me a well-educated person should read it.
[quote]pat wrote:
Well, I don’t trust people who think that their 5 senses and limited reason can tell them everything there is to know about the universe.[/quote]
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
[quote]lixy wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
I wonder if you have read the Koran. (Many Muslims have not, and the same is true for most non-Muslims who feel a drive to praise Islam.)
I have.
Would you mind telling us when you did that? What year was it?[/quote]
Why did it change?
[quote]pat wrote:
So if you are a religious person you cannot criticize another group for their behavior…Only really narrow minded atheists have that right?
Well, I don’t trust people who think that their 5 senses and limited reason can tell them everything there is to know about the universe.[/quote]
.>
I said without accepting that their own religion is messed up. If you can accept your religion is messed up, and openly admit its flaws then by all means shit on another persons religion. I don’t think many people would do so with the hostility that they do to Islam if they took a good look at Christianity and stopped glossing over the no-so-holy bits (which is something you accuse Muslims of doing all the time).
Hardcore atheists are also not very scientific, despite what they might think. My view is that there is a form of what we might refer to as a “supernatural” being guiding the universe, but I also doubt that this being would be constrained by petty human emotions, like we see in so many religious texts.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
humble wrote:
Much like the craziness that occurs at the hands of people who are otherwise identified by their supposed inclinations towards Islam, in no way is a true reflection on what Islam is about.
It’s a ‘mystery religion’. Being mysterious, it lets morons and whack jobs interpret it in however way they choose. It should be discarded.[/quote]
Nothing mysterious or secretive but like all things good, takes a lot of patience and perseverance and lack of considering of ones own image and status in the world and in the scope of the bigger picture to gain an understanding into it if you want a profound and real understanding. No one great ever achieved their greatness by sitting around and waiting for things to happen. They get out there and sacrifice their well being in pursuit of their goals. That sacrifice means a lot and shows sincerity to ones cause.
If you’re waiting for a 5 minute Youtube video explaining all things Islam then it’s no wonder you’re so narrow minded and think it is secretive.
You’re probably also easily sold on fad diets, marketing schemes and pop media quite easily.
In a fast paced world where instant gratification is the goal I really do understand how it all seems a little too much to have to read something of worth, meet people in the circle of those whom we criticize and have real human contact and discussions as opposed to parroting what we hear and see in snippeted decontextualized information. I really do understand how you may not be bothered but it affords you no excuse for your ignorance other than you’re just plain lazy.
The transparency is there otherwise Islam wouldn’t continue to be one of the largest growing religions in the world by number of conversion rates and ironically the highest statistics are in America.
[quote]Gregus wrote:
humble wrote:
Gregus wrote:
Ahem, Hitler was never a Christian. He was born into a catholic family but went down his own path.
He was a believer in the Occult and followed it very religiously. He believed in the Norse Gods. He was a true Pagan.
So you also fail to make an accurate point. In addition, the passages you posted are true. But then, this begs the question that why is it that the practice of the religion is so opposite of what’s actually written? Why?
You actually imply that it’s not the religion but the people. In essence, it’s not that they’re muslim, it’s because they’re Arabs.
Gregus, You sure? Hitlers words contradict you.
[b]
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)[/b]
How about this:
[b]
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people… When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922[/b]
Mein Kampf is full of quotes that reveal his faith towards Christianity.
In any regards he is not a true representation of Christianity no matter what he says is essentially my point.
Much like the craziness that occurs at the hands of people who are otherwise identified by their supposed inclinations towards Islam, in no way is a true reflection on what Islam is about.
Regarding your idea that it is an Arab problem, this is also untrue. True Arab chivalry and honorable dealings are far from what you read, watch and hear about today.
You’re talking about lost and dysfunctional detached groups of people from a particular background who are now essentially in no mans land when it comes to their identity. They’re not Arab, they’re not Danish, they’re Danrabs or Arabish. Not even! Mostly are from Moroccan backgrounds in that area, but it’s all to convenient to throw them in the same basket.
In Australia we have similar issues. Massive youth problems with Lebanese background teens. However, here is the dilemma, almost all of them are born and bred in Australia, not Lebanon. Actually most have never even been in the near vicinity of Arab countries let alone Lebanon and the only country they have seen is about an hour drive from the inner suburban areas where their may be a sheep, cow or rooster around.
So when you get down to it, they’re born and bred Australians. They live here, learn here, work here and cause trouble here. For some wierd reason though, the govt wont recognize it as an Australian youth problem. Rather they label them and off they go with media sensationalistic references of “Middle eastern gangs” and “Lebanese gangs” yada yada.
In essence you can say they have no culture at all!
I don’t know of a single culture on earth that promotes evil against others more so than the terrorist states of the American govt and Israeli govt with their ongoing assault on foreign countries, their breaking of international law codes at will and not to mention the re-writing of them when they feel like it, the rape and pillage of nations wealth, the war mongering and invasive powers and the blatant world wide media power they have at their disposal which can run the propaganda machine quite freely. If anything, I feel sorry for the brunt of good American people taken down the drain by their govt under the disguised attempts to justify their actions as “preventing evil”.
Sounds just like Hitler all over again albeit with a much more effective and well oiled machine at disposal spewing out brainwashing of the masses so that they can carry on their genocide and supremest ideas albeit legally and with the approval of the masses.
Eugenics has come a long long way!
Yes Im sure. those references are wrong. They Nazi party was all about the occult. It’s a historically proven fact. He was born a catholic though. That is true.
Also, no matter what the whole catholic and non catholic world fought him and condemned him. till this day his Nazi parties signs are illegal in Germany. [/quote]
You should consider the date of those quotes as being relevant to their validity. In 1922 Hitler was a nobody trying to get somewhere politically. Mein Kampf was written while he was in jail following the Beer Hall Putsch in 1923. If Hitler was going to maintain an air of respectability that the German people would accept he could not be honest about his being a satanist.
So wheres the proof that he was a satanist?
[quote]humble wrote:
The transparency is there otherwise Islam wouldn’t continue to be one of the largest growing religions in the world by number of conversion rates and ironically the highest statistics are in America.
[/quote]
And I’m convinced that if the Islamic world was open and tolerant of religious minorities in their midst, it would be a different religion booming. Ironically, in the Islamic world.
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
humble wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
humble wrote:
The Prophet Muhammad had a Jewish neighbor. His neighbor quite disliked him and his preaching so would make it his mission to offend him. He’d throw garbage and dead animals towards his house often.
One day, Muhammad noticed that he didn’t receive any garbage from the man and because this wasn’t the norm, he grew concerned and visited him.
Upon receiving him, his neighbor was surprised and asked him about the nature of his visit.
Muhammad told him that he was used to receiving garbage from him on a daily basis and when he didn’t he was afraid something was wrong with him. The neighbor again moved by this informed him he was ill and felt guilty for his actions and embraced him and his teachings.
I wonder if you have read the Koran. (Many Muslims have not, and the same is true for most non-Muslims who feel a drive to praise Islam.)
I have. I did skim the poetic passages, I will admit, but the theological and historical passages I read every word.
Don’t recall your story.
Do recall instances of attacking, killing, and robbing simply for not being Muslim. Do recall passages directly instructing to kill the infidel for no reason other than not being Muslim and not converting.
Your “history” is fantasy. I will accept the Koran as being historically accurate regarding the deeds of Mohammed, but not “histories” written long after and not provably based on contemporary documents.
I’ve read it in the language it was revealed and the only language it’s true meaning can be understood. Everything else is otherwise translation of supposed meaning.
Excuse.
Sorry, there is no credible claim that the Arabic does not have the same meanings with regard to the instructions and histories in question.
Your story is fantasy, not proven history.
It’s pathetic that you had to reach for an ADMITTEDLY unreliable anecdotal source to make your case, not the Koran.
Perhaps you’re not quite aware of the basis by which Muslim belief is founded, that is, the Quran and the Sunnah. Don’t google it… you do know about this yes?
Yes.
And as the latter contains untrue material, fantasy, Muslim scholars have had to come up with methods to determine which parts are considered true and which are not. No one claims that it is inerrant or that every account in it actually happened – at least not among educated Muslims.
tIn you’re adventurous yet seemingly poor research which seems lackluster at best and downright ignorant at worst, did you ever come across the sunnah and what it means?
In you’re research surely you came across the term mutawatir and what it means… you know, being the expert you are reading a doctrinal and divine text in the unintended merely translated language.
Excuse.
The instructions and deeds in question happened.
Whereas to prove your case on the matter in question, you have to cite a fantasy rather than being able to prove it from the Koran.
Ok, your turn to post some hate filled twisted interpretations of what you think passages mean. I sit at your feet oh scholarly one.
Ad hominem. They say what they say, while you have to cite fantasy to make your case, and make ridiculous excuses that just no one in the world can get the meaning right on anything at all so the instructions to kill unbelievers aren’t really there, the murderous acts of Mohammed as the Prophet aren’t really there, the great charity of Mohammed isn’t really lacking, a humble and mild attitude towards those who acted offensively or disrespectfully to him (as in your fantasy) isn’t really lacking, etc.
Why, it’s the translation that’s to blame. Actually the truth is just totally the opposite, don’cha know! Like totally!
What an excuse, blaming translations for anything and everything.
It’s one thing to point out that a word here and a word there are problematic, but the blanket excuse so typically made and that you make is pathetic. Man up and agree that the history and general meaning of statements of the Koran as translated into English by Muslim scholars are generally about what it says. But you won’t because you rely on the excuse. You have to have the excuse, because of what the Koran says.
Goodbye.[/quote]
There is of course huge flaws in this tired excuse that those who don’t speak Arabic can’t know the “true Islam”. The majority of Muslims are not Arabs and do not speak Arabic.
So if Humble is correct then the majority of Muslims do not understand their holy book because they don’t speak Arabic. Or to look at it another way using Humbles standard, the Muslims who best understand the true meaning of their Holy book and therefore are the most accurate practitioners of their faith are the Arabs.
So by Humble’s standard, if we want to understand what Islam truly is about we should consider the Saudi’s to be the best representatives. On the other hand more moderate Muslims like the Indonesians, Turks, Uigher’s, Sufi’s are by Humble’s standard not practicing the religion properly because they can’t properly understand the religion through a translation.
If we accept Humble’s standard as fact it doesn’t look good for Islam, because the most moderate Islamic countries are the ones that don’t understand the religion properly. While the countries that are the most fucked up also happen to be the ones who understand the religion the best.
[quote]humble wrote:
So wheres the proof that he was a satanist?[/quote]
You will have to do your own google search, because I have things to do. But looking up the Thule society would be a good starting point. Also do some research on Himmler and his practices. There was a lot of satanists in the NSDAP.
[quote]humble wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
humble wrote:
Much like the craziness that occurs at the hands of people who are otherwise identified by their supposed inclinations towards Islam, in no way is a true reflection on what Islam is about.
It’s a ‘mystery religion’. Being mysterious, it lets morons and whack jobs interpret it in however way they choose. It should be discarded.
Nothing mysterious or secretive but like all things good, takes a lot of patience and perseverance and lack of considering of ones own image and status in the world and in the scope of the bigger picture to gain an understanding into it if you want a profound and real understanding.
[/quote]
That’s its problem right there…it takes lots of thought and study to understand it. Okay. Well, you know and I know that most people won’t do that. Most people have the IQ of a carrot anyway. So, putting stuff in a Holy Book admonishing true believers to behead others (and similar insanities) is just plain stupid.
Look what Marx did when he got ahold of Hegel’s Phenomonology of the Spirit. Look what happened when Lenin got ahold of Das Kapital.
Many of these guys just need to STFU.
[quote]humble wrote:
So wheres the proof that he was a satanist?[/quote]
Auschwitz.
Duh!
[quote]Sifu wrote:
So if Humble is correct then the majority of Muslims do not understand their holy book because they don’t speak Arabic. Or to look at it another way using Humbles standard, the Muslims who best understand the true meaning of their Holy book and therefore are the most accurate practitioners of their faith are the Arabs.
So by Humble’s standard, if we want to understand what Islam truly is about we should consider the Saudi’s to be the best representatives. On the other hand more moderate Muslims like the Indonesians, Turks, Uigher’s, Sufi’s are by Humble’s standard not practicing the religion properly because they can’t properly understand the religion through a translation.
If we accept Humble’s standard as fact it doesn’t look good for Islam, because the most moderate Islamic countries are the ones that don’t understand the religion properly. While the countries that are the most fucked up also happen to be the ones who understand the religion the best. [/quote]
It takes a special person to put such a twist on what I wrote.
Congrats, you’re special!
Now, where did I imply that it could not be understood by anyone except an Arab?
I didn’t!
However, I did imply that it cannot be interpreted by anyone unless they have a grasp of the prerequisite knowledge and especially when one is making blatantly false claims like Shaykh Bill Roberts and now Mufti Sifu are making.
Indonesians, Uighers, Turks etc have more than ample supply of natives who know the tongue and understand the foundational aspects or have received scholarly status. How do you think Indonesia became what it became? One Arab sits there on his throne dishing out the rules? The definition given by the Prophet Muhammad in his time was that “He who speaks and understands the language is considered an Arab”. This is why Indians, Pakistanis, Indonesians, Malaysians even Americans and Englishmen are considered Arabs once they have acquired the requisite knowledge.
You’re reply though is a perfect example of the trouble that your heedless natures and rashness to jump into everything and claim expertise gets you into.
I’m merely a laymen and can run circles around you all day with your misinformed gibberish.
And for your information, Sufi’s are not a nation of people. They’re practioners of a spiritual order within Islam. Ie, there are Indo, Malay, Turkish, Saudi, Indian, Paki, Egyptian, Jordanian, Morrocan, Spanish, Bosnian, Lebanese and much more varieties of Sufi’s belonging to different orders.
You’re really doing yourself no justice by carrying on this diatribe of attack.
You may learn a thing or two should you come down off your high horses and stop assuming you know everything about a religon that you don’t practice and largely don’t follow until you hear something about it in the media.
Perhaps ask questions rather than attempt to ridicule and you may surprise yourselves and learn a thing or two rather than fall into the same old presumptuous traps.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
While the countries that are the most fucked up also happen to be the ones who understand the religion the best. [/quote]
What?
The more strongly Islamic a country is – and of course they must be basing everything strictly from the Koran in Arabic, as the correct meaning cannot be known any other way – the greater the paradise it is. Everyone knows that, it’s simple fact.
Only a twisted mind could think that is not so.
For example:
[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Sifu wrote:
While the countries that are the most fucked up also happen to be the ones who understand the religion the best.
What?
The more strongly Islamic a country is – and of course they must be basing everything strictly from the Koran in Arabic, as the correct meaning cannot be known any other way – the greater the paradise it is. Everyone knows that, it’s simple fact.
Only a twisted mind could think that is not so.
For example:
[/quote]
I saw that in the Dailymail this morning. But I couldn’t be bothered to post it, because there is just so much of that kind of shit coming from there.
[quote]humble wrote:
So wheres the proof that he was a satanist?[/quote]
Hitler was not a satanist. He was an occultist.
He was influenced by the teachings of The Secret Doctrine by H.P. Blavatsky and the philosophy of Nietzsche among other things.
In 1936 the Nazi’s started a Reich Church. You can read about it in the link below.
Hitler was acting as a National Socialist and a National Socialist is not a Christian.
By the same logic, can you say Bin Laden is acting as a Wahhabi and a Wahhabi is not a Muslim?
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
The more strongly Islamic a country is – and of course they must be basing everything strictly from the Koran in Arabic, as the correct meaning cannot be known any other way – the greater the paradise it is. Everyone knows that, it’s simple fact.
I saw that in the Dailymail this morning. But I couldn’t be bothered to post it, because there is just so much of that kind of shit coming from there. [/quote]
Yes, there would be a million and one examples.
No exaggeration on the number (Consider the population and then consider that only quite a a few happen to be both male and born to sheikhs. It goes downhill from there.)
So actually far more than a “million and one” examples.
Paradise.
The natural and inevitable consequence of the source material strictly interpreted from the Arabic in accordance with more than a thousand years of consistent and the most highly authoritative scholarship.
Humble you are full of it. Religion isn’t rocket science.
One does not need some kind of certified teacher to stand looking over their shoulder as they read the Koran to interject the correct interpretations of what they are reading. Your insistence that one does really undermines your case anyways.
If reading and learning about the Koran requires some kind of special interpreter to play spin doctor so a student of Islam doesn’t end up becoming a wahabist there obviously must be some things in the Koran that are dangerous to teach people.
Oh wait a second, it turns out I am wrong.
The Saudis have been reading one of those damned prepared-by-Muslim-scholars English translations.
Not going from the Arabic.
My bad.
'Splains everything.