Hell's Angels v Muslims in Denmark

[quote]humble wrote:
Bill Roberts, I’m confused now. It seemed you posted in truth but then have changed your tone to sound sarcastic? Which is it?

If you were being truthful then I agree and there are plenty of examples historically recorded of Muhammad and similarly his followers (read true followers, not crazy zealots with their own interpretation of the religon) engaging in wonderful acts of kindness, charity and community harmony.

If you were being sarcastic, then it is in very poor taste.

The Prophet Muhammad had a Jewish neighbor. His neighbor quite disliked him and his preaching so would make it his mission to offend him. He’d throw garbage and dead animals towards his house often.

One day, Muhammad noticed that he didn’t receive any garbage from the man and because this wasn’t the norm, he grew concerned and visited him.

Upon receiving him, his neighbor was surprised and asked him about the nature of his visit.

Muhammad told him that he was used to receiving garbage from him on a daily basis and when he didn’t he was afraid something was wrong with him. The neighbor again moved by this informed him he was ill and felt guilty for his actions and embraced him and his teachings.[/quote]

I wonder if you have read the Koran. (Many Muslims have not, and the same is true for most non-Muslims who feel a drive to praise Islam.)

I have. I did skim the poetic passages, I will admit, but the theological and historical passages I read every word.

Don’t recall your story.

Do recall instances of attacking, killing, and robbing simply for not being Muslim. Do recall passages directly instructing to kill the infidel for no reason other than not being Muslim and not converting.

Your “history” is fantasy. I will accept the Koran as being historically accurate regarding the deeds of Mohammed, but not “histories” written long after and not provably based on contemporary documents.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I wonder if you have read the Koran. (Many Muslims have not, and the same is true for most non-Muslims who feel a drive to praise Islam.)

I have.[/quote]

Would you mind telling us when you did that? What year was it?

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Gregus wrote:
I distrust any religion that has special names reserved for those that are not a part of it. Names that are meant as derogatory.

Names like Infidels and Gentiles. It’s a way to dehumanize and make themselves superior to others.

I agree. Here are a few more:

Atheist
Condemned
Damned
Devil-worshipper
Evildoer
Faithless
Godless
Heathen
Hell-bound
Idolator
Pagan
Satanist
Satan-worshipper
Sinner
Unbeliever
Ungodly
Unholy
Unsaved
Unwashed[/quote]

Agreed. And I see what you did there. It seems like you like to be contrarian just for the sake of being a contrarian.

Most of what you listed is mindless dribble and words that are more universal among people of all sects and cultures. You failed to make your point well.

the words i listed are used by the 2 major religions specifically to exclude. Christians don’t allow to deliberate abuse and use of someone because they pursue a different faith. Christians will try to convert them but not use them. Now, ancient history is not the present so don’t go there.

For example being a Gentile gives the Jews (even today) a clear conscience to use you to any means and ends they wish. It’s God’s will. Like God made the Jews as # 1 and all other people (gentiles) are Inferior and be made to serve their means and it’s not a sin.

For Christians usery is a Sin, and some lesser Christians are guilty of it. But point being it’s a sin for a Christian but not a Jew or Muslim.

But im sure you know and understand the difference. You’re just a contrarian.

[quote]humble wrote:
Magarhe wrote:
Nobody is squeaky clean.

You can’t lump everyone into a group. The article was a good read. Sounds like some people are sick of injustice and want to sort things out.

Someone has to sort things out.

This is true, injustice needs to be stamped out. It doesn’t matter from whom it comes from. If people can restore a balance, then so be it.

Likewise though, if the balance comes from a group not popular by media, then people in essence shouldn’t have qualms about who it is dishing out the justice.

tom63 wrote:
multiculturalism does not work because different societies are run on different form of trust. most European countries and the USA run on a general trust society. Many Muslim countries are familial trust oriented. they basically say screw you if you’re not one of my family, or religion.

The USA runs on more the help out your neighbor type of thing. Look at how often we help out in various disasters as opposed to say Saudi Arabia.

What an insane idea you have there. Seriously, this mentality wreaks of ignorance and lack of understanding. It shows quite clear that you are pop-media trained.

Arab countries have contributed in the past and present to many worldwide situations and problems both financially, socially and by other methods. I will detail this a little more later.

To state that they only look after their own is downright ignorance of political sway the media has over what you do and don’t hear.

I do agree though that the idea of “multiculturalism” as espoused by European and Western countries like the USA and Australia is a hoax. It doesn’t really exist and is a way of conglomerating and socially engineering the masses into a blob of agreed and robotic like detectable responses.

The more people that act and behave the exact same way they’re programmed to, the easier they are to manage. Only someone naive cannot see that any govt has this at their best interests. So they sell us the spiel about multiculturalism and these big happy, hippy fest like acceptance of all but at the expense we all act the same… ie how big brother wants us to act.

Islam says something different. Quoting the Quran it says:

O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things).

This is preceeded by these verses:

[i][b]
If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other, then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of God; but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice, and be fair: for God loves those who are fair (and just).

The Believers are but a single Brotherhood: So make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear God, that ye may receive Mercy.

O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others: It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former): Nor let some women laugh at others: It may be that the (latter are better than the (former):

Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames: Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed: And those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong.

O ye who believe! Avoid suspicion as much (as possible): for suspicion in some cases is a sin: And spy not on each other behind their backs. Would any of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? Nay, ye would abhor it…But fear God: For God is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. [/b][/i]

Obviously from the above, the picture is quite different from what many are led to believe or many falsely attribute towards Muslims.

There seems to be a major issue with people being able to differentiate between scripture, ie doctrinal teachings, which is in essence what the religon is about and the actions of people, which are much more influenced by their surroundings, cultural upbringing and personal carnal impulsive egos rather than true religious teaching.

The sad thing is, lumping it all is the easy way to do things and the way pop-media chooses to portray Muslims.

I am not disagreeing that their indeed may be criminal activity by immigrants in the region but seriously, grow up with the generalizations and the baby out with the bathwater mentalities.

Back to the point above, multiculturalism is a hoax and it is far healthier to understand that we do have a whole range of different and wonderful cultures, beliefs, lifestyles and experiences and it is far healthier to understand and accept the other as being different and remaining within their confines than forcing upon them this preposterous and downright deceptive idea that harmony between people comes from practicing and believing a universal set of rules under the banner of multiculturalism.

In essence, this is nothing but reverse psychology racism and nothing short of supremacist ideology with a splash of political correctness.

Bill Roberts, I’m confused now. It seemed you posted in truth but then have changed your tone to sound sarcastic? Which is it?

If you were being truthful then I agree and there are plenty of examples historically recorded of Muhammad and similarly his followers (read true followers, not crazy zealots with their own interpretation of the religon) engaging in wonderful acts of kindness, charity and community harmony.

If you were being sarcastic, then it is in very poor taste.

The Prophet Muhammad had a Jewish neighbor. His neighbor quite disliked him and his preaching so would make it his mission to offend him. He’d throw garbage and dead animals towards his house often.

One day, Muhammad noticed that he didn’t receive any garbage from the man and because this wasn’t the norm, he grew concerned and visited him.

Upon receiving him, his neighbor was surprised and asked him about the nature of his visit.

Muhammad told him that he was used to receiving garbage from him on a daily basis and when he didn’t he was afraid something was wrong with him. The neighbor again moved by this informed him he was ill and felt guilty for his actions and embraced him and his teachings.

The Muslims in their earlier years were renown for their justice and tolerance towards other religions when they fell under the rule of Muslims. Jews, Christians and all alike were allowed to flourish financially under Muslim rule.

Traditional and orthodox Jews still attest to this today!

See: Rabbi Weiss, Outside Annapolis Peace Confab, Rips Zionism - YouTube

Rabbi Weis tells the truth about the way things traditionally were.

If Muslims today are not what they were yesteryear then it is not the fault of Islam. Islam as a religion removes it’s hand from being responsible for the idiotic behavior as practiced by some Muslims.

This is no different than Christianity removing it’s hand from the atrocities of Hitler who claimed to be a practicing Christian. Should Christianity be held hostage because of this maniacs actions?

[/quote]

Ahem, Hitler was never a Christian. He was born into a catholic family but went down his own path.

He was a believer in the Occult and followed it very religiously. He believed in the Norse Gods. He was a true Pagan.

So you also fail to make an accurate point. In addition, the passages you posted are true. But then, this begs the question that why is it that the practice of the religion is so opposite of what’s actually written? Why?

You actually imply that it’s not the religion but the people. In essence, it’s not that they’re muslim, it’s because they’re Arabs.

[quote]Gregus wrote:

Christians will try to convert them but not use them.
[/quote]

yea the KKK and other white christian supremacist groups are notorious for their leafleting efforts and “convert or do no harm” ethos.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
humble wrote:
Bill Roberts, I’m confused now. It seemed you posted in truth but then have changed your tone to sound sarcastic? Which is it?

If you were being truthful then I agree and there are plenty of examples historically recorded of Muhammad and similarly his followers (read true followers, not crazy zealots with their own interpretation of the religon) engaging in wonderful acts of kindness, charity and community harmony.

If you were being sarcastic, then it is in very poor taste.

The Prophet Muhammad had a Jewish neighbor. His neighbor quite disliked him and his preaching so would make it his mission to offend him. He’d throw garbage and dead animals towards his house often.

One day, Muhammad noticed that he didn’t receive any garbage from the man and because this wasn’t the norm, he grew concerned and visited him.

Upon receiving him, his neighbor was surprised and asked him about the nature of his visit.

Muhammad told him that he was used to receiving garbage from him on a daily basis and when he didn’t he was afraid something was wrong with him. The neighbor again moved by this informed him he was ill and felt guilty for his actions and embraced him and his teachings.

I wonder if you have read the Koran. (Many Muslims have not, and the same is true for most non-Muslims who feel a drive to praise Islam.)

I have. I did skim the poetic passages, I will admit, but the theological and historical passages I read every word.

Don’t recall your story.

Do recall instances of attacking, killing, and robbing simply for not being Muslim. Do recall passages directly instructing to kill the infidel for no reason other than not being Muslim and not converting.

Your “history” is fantasy. I will accept the Koran as being historically accurate regarding the deeds of Mohammed, but not “histories” written long after and not provably based on contemporary documents.[/quote]

I’ve read it in the language it was revealed and the only language it’s true meaning can be understood. Everything else is otherwise translation of supposed meaning.

Perhaps you’re not quite aware of the basis by which Muslim belief is founded, that is, the Quran and the Sunnah. Don’t google it… you do know about this yes?

In you’re adventurous yet seemingly poor research which seems lackluster at best and downright ignorant at worst, did you ever come across the sunnah and what it means?
In you’re research surely you came across the term mutawatir and what it means… you know, being the expert you are reading a doctrinal and divine text in the unintended merely translated language.

Until then, your references and attempt to sound historically clued are what is fantasy.

Please don’t assume to teach Muslims their religon when you haven’t even the faintest clue yourself other than what google can teach you and your free copy of a translated Quran supposedly etched in your memory.

Ok, your turn to post some hate filled twisted interpretations of what you think passages mean. I sit at your feet oh scholarly one.

All those groups are condemned by the catholic and christian clergy and the population as whole. Their wrongness is acknowledged and worked on to be rid of.

Same cannot be said for Muslims and their clergy.

[quote]Gregus wrote:
All those groups are condemned by the catholic and christian clergy and the population as whole. Their wrongness is acknowledged and worked on to be rid of.

Same cannot be said for Muslims and their clergy.[/quote]
Yep, I would have a lot mroe respect for the religion if the “good” muslims spoke out against the nonsense that some preach.

[quote]Gregus wrote:

Ahem, Hitler was never a Christian. He was born into a catholic family but went down his own path.

He was a believer in the Occult and followed it very religiously. He believed in the Norse Gods. He was a true Pagan.

So you also fail to make an accurate point. In addition, the passages you posted are true. But then, this begs the question that why is it that the practice of the religion is so opposite of what’s actually written? Why?

You actually imply that it’s not the religion but the people. In essence, it’s not that they’re muslim, it’s because they’re Arabs.

[/quote]

Gregus, You sure? Hitlers words contradict you.

[b]

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)[/b]

How about this:

[b]
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people… When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922[/b]

Mein Kampf is full of quotes that reveal his faith towards Christianity.

In any regards he is not a true representation of Christianity no matter what he says is essentially my point.

Much like the craziness that occurs at the hands of people who are otherwise identified by their supposed inclinations towards Islam, in no way is a true reflection on what Islam is about.

Regarding your idea that it is an Arab problem, this is also untrue. True Arab chivalry and honorable dealings are far from what you read, watch and hear about today.

You’re talking about lost and dysfunctional detached groups of people from a particular background who are now essentially in no mans land when it comes to their identity. They’re not Arab, they’re not Danish, they’re Danrabs or Arabish. Not even! Mostly are from Moroccan backgrounds in that area, but it’s all to convenient to throw them in the same basket.
In Australia we have similar issues. Massive youth problems with Lebanese background teens. However, here is the dilemma, almost all of them are born and bred in Australia, not Lebanon. Actually most have never even been in the near vicinity of Arab countries let alone Lebanon and the only country they have seen is about an hour drive from the inner suburban areas where their may be a sheep, cow or rooster around.
So when you get down to it, they’re born and bred Australians. They live here, learn here, work here and cause trouble here. For some wierd reason though, the govt wont recognize it as an Australian youth problem. Rather they label them and off they go with media sensationalistic references of “Middle eastern gangs” and “Lebanese gangs” yada yada.

In essence you can say they have no culture at all!

I don’t know of a single culture on earth that promotes evil against others more so than the terrorist states of the American govt and Israeli govt with their ongoing assault on foreign countries, their breaking of international law codes at will and not to mention the re-writing of them when they feel like it, the rape and pillage of nations wealth, the war mongering and invasive powers and the blatant world wide media power they have at their disposal which can run the propaganda machine quite freely. If anything, I feel sorry for the brunt of good American people taken down the drain by their govt under the disguised attempts to justify their actions as “preventing evil”.

Sounds just like Hitler all over again albeit with a much more effective and well oiled machine at disposal spewing out brainwashing of the masses so that they can carry on their genocide and supremest ideas albeit legally and with the approval of the masses.

Eugenics has come a long long way!

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Gregus wrote:
All those groups are condemned by the catholic and christian clergy and the population as whole. Their wrongness is acknowledged and worked on to be rid of.

Same cannot be said for Muslims and their clergy.
Yep, I would have a lot mroe respect for the religion if the “good” muslims spoke out against the nonsense that some preach.

[/quote]

Yes i agree 100%. All it would take for me to trust Muslims is to hear their leaders condemn it. But they don’t. Even the worshipers are silent and do nothing but defend their religion.

Post 911, we had a huge spike of Muslim women walking briskly into our business dressed head to toe in their sheets. Faces and every body part covered. Naturally it was stressful and they seemed to come out of the woodwork. It almost seemed like they took a perverse pleasure in scaring the whites.

[quote]humble wrote:
Gregus wrote:

Ahem, Hitler was never a Christian. He was born into a catholic family but went down his own path.

He was a believer in the Occult and followed it very religiously. He believed in the Norse Gods. He was a true Pagan.

So you also fail to make an accurate point. In addition, the passages you posted are true. But then, this begs the question that why is it that the practice of the religion is so opposite of what’s actually written? Why?

You actually imply that it’s not the religion but the people. In essence, it’s not that they’re muslim, it’s because they’re Arabs.

Gregus, You sure? Hitlers words contradict you.

[b]

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)[/b]

How about this:

[b]
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people… When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922[/b]

Mein Kampf is full of quotes that reveal his faith towards Christianity.

In any regards he is not a true representation of Christianity no matter what he says is essentially my point.

Much like the craziness that occurs at the hands of people who are otherwise identified by their supposed inclinations towards Islam, in no way is a true reflection on what Islam is about.

Regarding your idea that it is an Arab problem, this is also untrue. True Arab chivalry and honorable dealings are far from what you read, watch and hear about today.

You’re talking about lost and dysfunctional detached groups of people from a particular background who are now essentially in no mans land when it comes to their identity. They’re not Arab, they’re not Danish, they’re Danrabs or Arabish. Not even! Mostly are from Moroccan backgrounds in that area, but it’s all to convenient to throw them in the same basket.
In Australia we have similar issues. Massive youth problems with Lebanese background teens. However, here is the dilemma, almost all of them are born and bred in Australia, not Lebanon. Actually most have never even been in the near vicinity of Arab countries let alone Lebanon and the only country they have seen is about an hour drive from the inner suburban areas where their may be a sheep, cow or rooster around.
So when you get down to it, they’re born and bred Australians. They live here, learn here, work here and cause trouble here. For some wierd reason though, the govt wont recognize it as an Australian youth problem. Rather they label them and off they go with media sensationalistic references of “Middle eastern gangs” and “Lebanese gangs” yada yada.

In essence you can say they have no culture at all!

I don’t know of a single culture on earth that promotes evil against others more so than the terrorist states of the American govt and Israeli govt with their ongoing assault on foreign countries, their breaking of international law codes at will and not to mention the re-writing of them when they feel like it, the rape and pillage of nations wealth, the war mongering and invasive powers and the blatant world wide media power they have at their disposal which can run the propaganda machine quite freely. If anything, I feel sorry for the brunt of good American people taken down the drain by their govt under the disguised attempts to justify their actions as “preventing evil”.

Sounds just like Hitler all over again albeit with a much more effective and well oiled machine at disposal spewing out brainwashing of the masses so that they can carry on their genocide and supremest ideas albeit legally and with the approval of the masses.

Eugenics has come a long long way!
[/quote]

Yes Im sure. those references are wrong. They Nazi party was all about the occult. It’s a historically proven fact. He was born a catholic though. That is true.

Also, no matter what the whole catholic and non catholic world fought him and condemned him. till this day his Nazi parties signs are illegal in Germany.

[quote]Gregus wrote:
All those groups are condemned by the catholic and christian clergy and the population as whole. Their wrongness is acknowledged and worked on to be rid of.

Same cannot be said for Muslims and their clergy.[/quote]

When was the last time you sat in on a Sermon? :slight_smile:

In oz, the clergy not only shame them, speak out against them and riddicule them in large gatherings and critisize them in media (all of which largely get’s two second mentions as opposed to minutes and minutes and pages and pages of media time) but they actually have formulated for many years now, opposing youth groups who clean up their own streets, work with police, govt agencies, youth groups, jails and more to ensure these ratbags are dealt with appropriately or clean their act up.

Obviously, you don’t need to be told about what happens to them overseas with the more zealot like govts.

I have a Muslim friend who comes from a wealthy family and is educated, well mannered and extrememly mild… but he has a beard and upon leaving Australia to study abroad he had no issues. When arriving in an “Arab” country, he was immediately taken into custody and tortured for weeks on end…just because they “thought” he was a terrorist because of his beard. Needless to say, they were wrong and released him without apology and sent him back to Australia.

So the influence is definitely not from overseas from these born and breds as their is literally zero tolerance in their countries. The imbalanced freedoms afforded in the west though are something not to be desired as it has spiraled out of control allowing people to abuse the freedoms and this is further exacerbated and fuels their cause when their is direct media involvement in persecuting and making a whole people seem as though they’re aliens.

You get told you’re an alien enough and you end up eventually believing it. Not that much different to what has occured to African Americans for centuries.

Well you say you’re sure, but his words and books say otherwise. Are you saying his books are doctored?

It depends on what period of his life he is being quoted from. People’s beliefs and views change.

[quote]humble wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
humble wrote:
The Prophet Muhammad had a Jewish neighbor. His neighbor quite disliked him and his preaching so would make it his mission to offend him. He’d throw garbage and dead animals towards his house often.

One day, Muhammad noticed that he didn’t receive any garbage from the man and because this wasn’t the norm, he grew concerned and visited him.

Upon receiving him, his neighbor was surprised and asked him about the nature of his visit.

Muhammad told him that he was used to receiving garbage from him on a daily basis and when he didn’t he was afraid something was wrong with him. The neighbor again moved by this informed him he was ill and felt guilty for his actions and embraced him and his teachings.

I wonder if you have read the Koran. (Many Muslims have not, and the same is true for most non-Muslims who feel a drive to praise Islam.)

I have. I did skim the poetic passages, I will admit, but the theological and historical passages I read every word.

Don’t recall your story.

Do recall instances of attacking, killing, and robbing simply for not being Muslim. Do recall passages directly instructing to kill the infidel for no reason other than not being Muslim and not converting.

Your “history” is fantasy. I will accept the Koran as being historically accurate regarding the deeds of Mohammed, but not “histories” written long after and not provably based on contemporary documents.

I’ve read it in the language it was revealed and the only language it’s true meaning can be understood. Everything else is otherwise translation of supposed meaning.[/quote]

Excuse.

Sorry, there is no credible claim that the Arabic does not have the same meanings with regard to the instructions and histories in question.

Your story is fantasy, not proven history.

It’s pathetic that you had to reach for an ADMITTEDLY unreliable anecdotal source to make your case, not the Koran.

[quote]

Perhaps you’re not quite aware of the basis by which Muslim belief is founded, that is, the Quran and the Sunnah. Don’t google it… you do know about this yes? [/quote]

Yes.

And as the latter contains untrue material, fantasy, Muslim scholars have had to come up with methods to determine which parts are considered true and which are not. No one claims that it is inerrant or that every account in it actually happened – at least not among educated Muslims.

[quote]tIn you’re adventurous yet seemingly poor research which seems lackluster at best and downright ignorant at worst, did you ever come across the sunnah and what it means?
In you’re research surely you came across the term mutawatir and what it means… you know, being the expert you are reading a doctrinal and divine text in the unintended merely translated language.[/quote]

Excuse.

The instructions and deeds in question happened.

Whereas to prove your case on the matter in question, you have to cite a fantasy rather than being able to prove it from the Koran.

Ad hominem. They say what they say, while you have to cite fantasy to make your case, and make ridiculous excuses that just no one in the world can get the meaning right on anything at all so the instructions to kill unbelievers aren’t really there, the murderous acts of Mohammed as the Prophet aren’t really there, the great charity of Mohammed isn’t really lacking, a humble and mild attitude towards those who acted offensively or disrespectfully to him (as in your fantasy) isn’t really lacking, etc.

Why, it’s the translation that’s to blame. Actually the truth is just totally the opposite, don’cha know! Like totally!

What an excuse, blaming translations for anything and everything.

It’s one thing to point out that a word here and a word there are problematic, but the blanket excuse so typically made and that you make is pathetic. Man up and agree that the history and general meaning of statements of the Koran as translated into English by Muslim scholars are generally about what it says. But you won’t because you rely on the excuse. You have to have the excuse, because of what the Koran says.

Goodbye.

[quote]Gregus wrote:
Agreed. And I see what you did there. [/quote]

You must be a genius!

I take that back. You’re dumb as a stomp!

You get the point and say that what he listed “is mindless dribble and words that are more universal among people of all sects and cultures”. Then say that he fails at making a point.

Take your pick from Varq’s list. You’ll find words used by a certain “major religion specifically to exclude”.

Tell that to the Irish. They didn’t seem to get the memo.

As opposed to Jews who drink Christian baby blood, and Muslims who use Christians as house slaves.

Of course, HH and Bill Roberts get a pass.

I say we should round 'em up, tag 'em and roast 'em.

“Some”? Do you mean those that have bank accounts?

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

Excuse.

Sorry, there is no credible claim that the Arabic does not have the same meanings with regard to the instructions and histories in question.

Your story is fantasy, not proven history.

It’s pathetic that you had to reach for an ADMITTEDLY unreliable anecdotal source to make your case, not the Koran.

[/quote]

That’s where your amatuer attempt at (I wont even call it orientalist) hate filled interpretation is flawed. You think that you can learn what a religon is about following your own set of rules. This is the problem with much of Islam today, the wahabist mindset that thinks they can self teach without any formal instruction. You’re attempts are even more laughable because as an untrained reader, in another language, with no formal study at the hands of scholars or any real relevant meaningful qualification, you attempt to pass off you’re half baked and self glorifying rhetoric as a plausible explanation.

That’s like me walking into a Holy Communion or a Bar Mitzvah and saying “Cut it out folks… you’ve got it all wrong. Here’s how it should be”.

“Admittedly” unreliable? Where on earth in your bubble brain did you come up with that from? Then again, you are in the habit of making things up to suit your own agenda. I asked you if you knew what the Sunnah is. I asked you if you knew what Mutawatir means and that’s your reply? Lol…

[quote]
Yes.

And as the latter contains untrue material, fantasy, Muslim scholars have had to come up with methods to determine which parts are considered true and which are not. No one claims that it is inerrant or that every account in it actually happened – at least not among educated Muslims. [/quote]

No, you’re wrong. What has been recorded as Sunnah is not untrue. What as been transmitted by some and claimed to be sunnah has been put through scrutiny and the scrutiny of the scholars is unsurpassed in the history of religious recordings. If it failed the scrutiny then it was recorded as a false hadith or saying and relegated to the books of false transmissions. If it is in the Sunnah then it has already passed the scrutiny of the scholars. The story I speak of is Mutawatir… if you had half a clue about what that means. Go on… google away, I understand it’s tough earning you’re PHD in Islamic studies on the internet and through tv.

You expect me to reply to such childish responses.
Hang on let me try.

*Excuse. You’re citing your whimsical ego driven paranoid whisperings rather than being able to disprove the story as falsehood. *

Hey… it worked… woowwweeee.

Now kindly show me the falseness of the story narrated. Until then, it remains true Shaykh Bill Roberts.

Oh they’re there, just not in the way you have confused yourself to believe. You’re interpretations and understanding is finite and just like the problematic wahabist, you literalize everything and view everything in black and white, without substance and definitely without context.

Each and every verse contains a historical, spiritual and timely context, explanation and juristical, extrapolative, lexical, morphological and sometimes multiple exegetic meaning but your completely naive and ignorant pseudo understanding is trying to very vehemently convince yourself and others that you have a clue about what you’re reading and now writing. Anyone with half an iota knows that the Bible’s true language is not english and hence in translations meanings are lost along with the traditional exegetic commentary on the meaning and interpretation of verses. But here we have Shaykh Bill Roberts trying to convince us all that all you need is an Arabic English Dictionary in one hand, Quran in the other and you could possibly get away with headbutting the keys on your keyboard to get a google search understanding on all things Islam.

Bravo Shaykh. I can’t wait to hear more of your sermons.

I don’t blame translations, I blame lazy people like you who think they can just read translations and formulate scholarly opinions and then pass them off on forums in an attempt to high note themselves and pass off as being smart alec sarcastic/satirical writers. Satire is the shield of the coward and ignorance is his sword. Congratulations, you’re a fine soldier in the art.
I assume with your literalist understanding you’d read the last sentence and assume I’m complimenting you so lest your mind goes into freeze mode again, I’ll tell you ahead, I’m not.

You end your silly little hissy fit about being caught out as having no clue with a childish tantrum and an even more childish deflection.

“Man up” he says in a cry to catch a wave of their T-flavor of the forums. I’d like to redirect that at you but fear of being called unoriginal I’ll refrain.

I’m not pointing out a word here or there, I’m pointing out your whole qualification in making your sweeping statements. I’m pointing out your massive lack in education regarding the subject, your nil experience with relevance to Arabic, grammar, linguistics, morphology, lexicology, history, heck even reading ability let alone Quranic exegesis as espoused by the classical scholars, Sunnah extrapolation and explanation of Quranic verses, the extrapolation and interpretive nature of Hadith sciences, your zilch understanding in jurisprudence, matters of creed, theology, philosophy and so much more. I’m pointing all of this out, not for you because you lumbar around in your soft cushioned nest of self gratification. No, I point it out for others to see in laymen terms what a douchebag you are and how so very smart you pretend to be.

So you’re ‘goodbye’ is a lovely way in putting an indirect stamp that reads “Sorry, I have nothing more to say because I’m really a dopey when it comes to these matters, but I have to save face because I was caught out as being a halfwit and so I will use this goodbye in an attempt to sound as if I just sealed the argument”.

Shaykh Bill… do play!

Bill, when did you read the Quran?

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Gregus wrote:
I distrust any religion that has special names reserved for those that are not a part of it. Names that are meant as derogatory.

Names like Infidels and Gentiles. It’s a way to dehumanize and make themselves superior to others.

I agree. Here are a few more:

Atheist
Condemned
Damned
Devil-worshipper
Evildoer
Faithless
Godless
Heathen
Hell-bound
Idolator
Pagan
Satanist
Satan-worshipper
Sinner
Unbeliever
Ungodly
Unholy
Unsaved
Unwashed

LOL

I distrust anyone who shits on another religion without first accepting that theirs is just as (if not more) messed up.[/quote]

So if you are a religious person you cannot criticize another group for their behavior…Only really narrow minded atheists have that right?

Well, I don’t trust people who think that their 5 senses and limited reason can tell them everything there is to know about the universe.

[quote]humble wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
humble wrote:
Bill Roberts, I’m confused now. It seemed you posted in truth but then have changed your tone to sound sarcastic? Which is it?

If you were being truthful then I agree and there are plenty of examples historically recorded of Muhammad and similarly his followers (read true followers, not crazy zealots with their own interpretation of the religon) engaging in wonderful acts of kindness, charity and community harmony.

If you were being sarcastic, then it is in very poor taste.

The Prophet Muhammad had a Jewish neighbor. His neighbor quite disliked him and his preaching so would make it his mission to offend him. He’d throw garbage and dead animals towards his house often.

One day, Muhammad noticed that he didn’t receive any garbage from the man and because this wasn’t the norm, he grew concerned and visited him.

Upon receiving him, his neighbor was surprised and asked him about the nature of his visit.

Muhammad told him that he was used to receiving garbage from him on a daily basis and when he didn’t he was afraid something was wrong with him. The neighbor again moved by this informed him he was ill and felt guilty for his actions and embraced him and his teachings.

I wonder if you have read the Koran. (Many Muslims have not, and the same is true for most non-Muslims who feel a drive to praise Islam.)

I have. I did skim the poetic passages, I will admit, but the theological and historical passages I read every word.

Don’t recall your story.

Do recall instances of attacking, killing, and robbing simply for not being Muslim. Do recall passages directly instructing to kill the infidel for no reason other than not being Muslim and not converting.

Your “history” is fantasy. I will accept the Koran as being historically accurate regarding the deeds of Mohammed, but not “histories” written long after and not provably based on contemporary documents.

I’ve read it in the language it was revealed and the only language it’s true meaning can be understood. Everything else is otherwise translation of supposed meaning.

Perhaps you’re not quite aware of the basis by which Muslim belief is founded, that is, the Quran and the Sunnah. Don’t google it… you do know about this yes?

In you’re adventurous yet seemingly poor research which seems lackluster at best and downright ignorant at worst, did you ever come across the sunnah and what it means?
In you’re research surely you came across the term mutawatir and what it means… you know, being the expert you are reading a doctrinal and divine text in the unintended merely translated language.

Until then, your references and attempt to sound historically clued are what is fantasy.

Please don’t assume to teach Muslims their religon when you haven’t even the faintest clue yourself other than what google can teach you and your free copy of a translated Quran supposedly etched in your memory.

Ok, your turn to post some hate filled twisted interpretations of what you think passages mean. I sit at your feet oh scholarly one.[/quote]

Yep, the words of the Prophet are SECRET words, mystery words, and a true believer chants them at victims while beheading them. It’s a secret! Hush!!!