Hell's Angels v Muslims in Denmark

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Humble you are full of it. Religion isn’t rocket science.

One does not need some kind of certified teacher to stand looking over their shoulder as they read the Koran to interject the correct interpretations of what they are reading. Your insistence that one does really undermines your case anyways.

If reading and learning about the Koran requires some kind of special interpreter to play spin doctor so a student of Islam doesn’t end up becoming a wahabist there obviously must be some things in the Koran that are dangerous to teach people.

[/quote]

Yes Sifu… I’m full of it and you’re here to teach me Islam even though I have sat with and learned from some of the most renown scholars in the world. My personal teacher, an American convert who undertook the studies of the religous sciences to become who he is today and lives in Jordan and is considered by all the born and bred Jordanians to be a high ranking and extremely well respected Scholar. Someone whom born and bred Arabs and Muslims all over the world travel to, to learn under. I’m full of it and you’re here to to teach me how it is.

Amazing arrogance to say the least.

Nothing dangerous in the Quran to teach people, only dangerous when people want to teach themselves. You fail to understand it because your idea of religon equates to the complexity of the ingredients on a kids breakfast cereal. Sugar, Sugar Sugar…but we can claim it gives energy - is the similar attitude you hold towards religon.

[quote]
Oh wait a second, it turns out I am wrong.

The Saudis have been reading one of those damned prepared-by-Muslim-scholars English translations.

Not going from the Arabic.

My bad.

'Splains everything. [/quote]
Nice for you to come out of your coma and join the cheerleeding.
You out of all people, claiming to be ‘educated’ should know a little more about the history of the development of religon and the influence of the literalist wahhabi/khawarij mentality on text interpretation and the darkness it spread. But of course, I forgot. You’re self taught through media snippets and online fatwa’s.

What a waste of an education you had if you have the gall to call that educated.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
The more strongly Islamic a country is – and of course they must be basing everything strictly from the Koran in Arabic, as the correct meaning cannot be known any other way – the greater the paradise it is. Everyone knows that, it’s simple fact.

I saw that in the Dailymail this morning. But I couldn’t be bothered to post it, because there is just so much of that kind of shit coming from there.

Yes, there would be a million and one examples.

No exaggeration on the number (Consider the population and then consider that only quite a a few happen to be both male and born to sheikhs. It goes downhill from there.)

So actually far more than a “million and one” examples.

Paradise.

The natural and inevitable consequence of the source material strictly interpreted from the Arabic in accordance with more than a thousand years of consistent and the most highly authoritative scholarship.[/quote]

Interestingly enough, this incident is portrayed slightly differently in the Arab press, to the extent it is reported at all.

The headline from Qatar Living: “75 and still not wise”:

http://www.qatarliving.com/node/409656

[quote]humble wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Humble you are full of it. Religion isn’t rocket science.

One does not need some kind of certified teacher to stand looking over their shoulder as they read the Koran to interject the correct interpretations of what they are reading. Your insistence that one does really undermines your case anyways.

If reading and learning about the Koran requires some kind of special interpreter to play spin doctor so a student of Islam doesn’t end up becoming a wahabist there obviously must be some things in the Koran that are dangerous to teach people.

Yes Sifu… I’m full of it and you’re here to teach me Islam even though I have sat with and learned from some of the most renown scholars in the world. My personal teacher, an American convert who undertook the studies of the religous sciences to become who he is today and lives in Jordan and is considered by all the born and bred Jordanians to be a high ranking and extremely well respected Scholar. Someone whom born and bred Arabs and Muslims all over the world travel to, to learn under. I’m full of it and you’re here to to teach me how it is.

Amazing arrogance to say the least. [/quote]

I’m not going to teach you or Lixy anything about Islam. It is also quite obvious that nothing I can write would even so much as cause you two to think about or question your religion.

I get your point. In Islam one must await instruction from a proper authority. Then after the instruction has been administered that is it. No thinking about it. Because as we all know independent thought is dangerous.

[quote]
Nothing dangerous in the Quran to teach people, only dangerous when people want to teach themselves. [/quote]

Thanks Habibi! You gave me a good laugh.

Teaching people to kill over religion is dangerous.

From my discussions with Lixy and now you I get the distinct impression that trying to talk to a Muslim about their religion is like trying to talk to a crackhead about their addiction. The reason why is because you all do the same thing. You use a technique called rationalization in order to avoid facing up to reality.

[quote]
You fail to understand it because your idea of religon equates to the complexity of the ingredients on a kids breakfast cereal. Sugar, Sugar Sugar…but we can claim it gives energy - is the similar attitude you hold towards religon. [/quote]

I think your point got lost in the translation.

My understanding of religion is that if a religion has a flesh and blood human being as it’s most central figure, who is adored and worshipped as if he is almost god incarnate, then that mans behavior and actions will have a huge influence upon the behaviors and actions of, the practitioners of that religion.

My understanding of human behavior is that actions speak louder than words.

[quote]
Oh wait a second, it turns out I am wrong.

The Saudis have been reading one of those damned prepared-by-Muslim-scholars English translations.

Not going from the Arabic.

My bad.

'Splains everything.
Nice for you to come out of your coma and join the cheerleeding.
You out of all people, claiming to be ‘educated’ should know a little more about the history of the development of religon and the influence of the literalist wahhabi/khawarij mentality on text interpretation and the darkness it spread. But of course, I forgot. You’re self taught through media snippets and online fatwa’s.

What a waste of an education you had if you have the gall to call that educated. [/quote]

Literalist huh. So now you finally come out with the basis of your defense. Which is, don’t take the Koran literally. Hence the need for a qualified instructor to give you the proper interpretation so you don’t end up taking the Koran literally and behave like a Wahabist.

^^
Absolutely disgusting!

Traditional Muslims abhor such ridiculous teachings and or beliefs.

No where in the recorded doctrine of Muslims is a man or woman to be lashed or convicted for “mingling”.

Although mingling with non-relations for no reason is frowned upon, it does not warrant a judicial interference or conviction of any sort.

Only fornication or adultery is an offense which can be tried in the context of the above articles.

Even so, for it to be tried there has to have been four eye witnesses of whom each saw the act and not only saw it at a glance but actually see penetration.

This is how tight the measures are to protect people from being dishonestly accused by others.

For someone to be caught by 4 people witnessing such an act must been it would have been so vulgarly displayed and open that one could not miss it.

Even if 3 witnesses come forward, then the testimony is not accepted and those people instead receive the punishment.

In the case of if the witnesses forging information and being caught then likewise their punishment is severe for lying and falsely accusing someone of a heinous sin/crime.

What the Saudi’s did is a classic example of the wahabi/literalist mindset I mention above in earlier posts. It is absolutely against the very foundational principles of Islamic law and outright sinful.
Should there be a REAL head of the Islamic state, then these men passing off such convictions and punishments would be dealt with swiftly and in direct non-PC or diplomatic ways.

Islam abhors disorder and misuse of the religous edicts, whether they be at the extremes of laxity or harshness. Both are contribution to destroying moral fabric of society.

Laila said it best in the first article:


“How can a verdict be issued based on suspicion?” Laila Ahmed al-Ahdab, a physician who also is a columnist for Al-Watan, wrote Monday. “A group of people are misusing religion to serve their own interests.”

I guess it “really” doesn’t mean what it plainly says in Arabic, either. Therefore Mohammed and Islam are immune to any objection of any kind, since nothing can be pointed to as actually meaning what it says.

It’s convenient when an English translation, by Muslim scholars, is being cited as the source to blame the translation, but it turns out that the equivalent excuse is just as easy for the Arabic as well. How irrelevant that the words say a given thing, if wanting to refuse to admit that Mohammed taught or did the thing in question.

I’d call it intellectual cowardice and lack of integrity, except applying the word “intellectual” to it would be crediting this pitiful defense too much.

[quote]Sifu wrote:

I’m not going to teach you or Lixy anything about Islam. It is also quite obvious that nothing I can write would even so much as cause you two to think about or question your religion.

I get your point. In Islam one must await instruction from a proper authority. Then after the instruction has been administered that is it. No thinking about it. Because as we all know independent thought is dangerous.
[/quote]

It must be hard having to reply with continued sidestepping.

You don’t get the point because much like your mate Shaykh Bill Roberts, you have a very hard time grasping sensible concepts but have a very easy time twisting ideas to suit your preconceived agendas. In essence, you’re cups full with your bias and hatred. Pour as much common sense and truth into it as you want but it’s content remaining full with what it has.
Therefore you jump from conclusion to conclusion rather foundation-less and think you’re coming up with plausible responses.

That’s a sensational conclusion. I now ask you to provide evidence for your statement, that is The Quran TEACHES people to kill for Islam. I require a direct quote with the commentary and context from classical scholars. Otherwise give it up. I’m not holding my breath though because like all sensationalists, you cut and paste, chop and edit, snippet and misplace, misquote, de-contextualize and create a paper mache’ idea that suits you of what a religon means.

This is largely the problem with much of western thought towards all religions. A blatant disrespect for the particular religions rules and boundaries and therefore it is acceptable to dissect it the way you see fit and create your own conclusions.
This is the same problem we have internally with Muslims as mentioned for the nth time interpreting law the way they want and not in accordance with traditional and scholarly understanding.

You’ve got to be kidding right? I mean surely in a discussion like this we would never want rational arguments. (sarcasm)

But yes, I’m addicted to Islam. I enjoy practicing as best I can and I enjoy following it’s rules. Rest assured, I don’t live in a cave, have a beard, blow things up nor have a desire to unless it has cubic inches and sits inside a curvaceous motor body. I don’t bash women, my wife works and smacks me around sometimes, my children sing nursery rhymes and not war hymns and I pretty much help run one of the largest retailers in Australia… that might all come to an end though because the likes of you have blown my cover… :frowning:

No it’s there if you think hard enough.

[quote]My understanding of religion is that if a religion has a flesh and blood human being as it’s most central figure, who is adored and worshipped as if he is almost god incarnate, then that mans behavior and actions will have a huge influence upon the behaviors and actions of, the practitioners of that religion.

My understanding of human behavior is that actions speak louder than words.

[/quote]

Both understandings are correct.

Where you fail is that you’re not armed with enough information and true knowledge of what Islam teaches as opposed to what it’s adherents practice (or so called adherents) and therefore fail miserably at differentiating between people and doctrine. You lump them together and out they go. Baby with the bath water.

Such a very sad way to live your life.

[quote]
Literalist huh. So now you finally come out with the basis of your defense. Which is, don’t take the Koran literally. Hence the need for a qualified instructor to give you the proper interpretation so you don’t end up taking the Koran literally and behave like a Wahabist. [/quote]
Again, you’re ability to twist and miss the point completely is not surprising.

The Quran itself attests Verse 7 chapter 3 and you can rest assured I have checked with teachers as to it’s intended meaning,

He (God) it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

That verse alone is worth it’s weight in gold in this thread!

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
I guess it “really” doesn’t mean what it plainly says in Arabic, either. Therefore Mohammed and Islam are immune to any objection of any kind, since nothing can be pointed to as actually meaning what it says.

I’d call it intellectual cowardice and lack of integrity, except applying the word “intellectual” to it would be crediting this pitiful defense too much.[/quote]

Shaykh Bill, provide the quoted reference, commentary and context.

Otherwise stop trolling.

Oh, those Saudis don’t have actual Koran verses.

You misspoke when you said the problem was that they were taking the text literally.

Everything any of them do that is heinous that they say is Islam, we now learn from you, there isn’t even any text at all.

There’s no point in going further with you. Your head is wedged so far up your ass that there truly is no hope of you ever hearing a word, or anything making its way out, that isn’t crap. Not a single word of yours has been an exception, so I think it is fair to say.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Oh, those Saudis don’t have actual Koran verses.

You misspoke when you said the problem was that they were taking the text literally.

Everything any of them do that is heinous that they say is Islam, we now learn from you, there isn’t even any text at all.

There’s no point in going further with you. Your head is wedged so far up your ass that there truly is no hope of you ever hearing a word, or anything making its way out, that isn’t crap. Not a single word of yours has been an exception, so I think it is fair to say.

[/quote]

Just as I thought. No quote. Find another rainbow, no gold here.

[quote]humble wrote:
He (God) it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

That verse alone is worth it’s weight in gold in this thread!
[/quote]

I understand the point you are trying to make with this quote and I think it’s great: (Wahabbis, with their literal intrepretation of the Koran, are wrong.)

But why quote the Koran in English if it is not a correct translation?

Some thoughts on this by another:

On the Interpretation of the Quran
by Mohammad Asghar

17 April, 2006

Ever since I began talking on the Internet about the Quran, I have often been told by many Muslims as well as by non-Muslim readers that I needed to correctly interpret its contents before saying anything about them. A few Muslim scholars not only advised me not to follow its [literal meaning], they also abused me for not being able to correctly [interpret] what is written in their Holy Book.

But when I asked them to give me the non-literal meaning of a Quranic verse, all of them disappeared for good. As a result, my inquiry still remains unfulfilled.

Despite being abused and mistreated, I have steadfastly argued that it is not necessary for anyone to interpret the Quran in order to understand its messages. I have also argued that Muslims should act upon its messages on the basis of what they tell them, and not on the basis of what they think should be their interpretations.

On the allegorical messages that the Quran contains, I have maintained a distinct position and it was this: Muslims must not attempt to interpret the allegorical verses of the Quran in order to avoid discord among themselves and the punishment that they would be given by Allah in the world hereafter.

I wanted to give a recital on the word [interpretation] in this write up, but abandoned the idea after I came to the conclusion that no matter how strong a recital I give, Muslims would not accept it on account of their belligerent attitude towards those beings they consider, albeit unjustifiably, hostile to Islam. Instead, I decided to make my point by relying on what is stated in verse 3:7 of the Quran regarding the interpretation of its contents.

Three translations of this verse, done by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Pickthall and Shakir, read:

YUSUF ALI: [He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

SHAKIR: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation, but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.]

Since all the above three translations are a little bit confusing, I have another translation of it that is absolutely clear and leaves no scope for us to argue on its true message. It reads:

[He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation, but none knows its’ interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding].

(Source: http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran.]

Before one accuses me of being selective, or of harboring an ill intention in my mind, I hasten to emphasize that I have another translation of this verse that is as clear as the above. I am not quoting it here for the sake of keeping this write up short.

That said, we can now go back to the verse and try to understand what it really tells us.

I believe it tells us this: The Quran has two kinds of verses. Some of them are decisive, clear and fundamental. They need no interpretation, as they are clear and easy to understand. They should be taken to mean what we find stated in them.

There are, in the Quran, some allegorical verses as well. No one should try to interpret them in order to understand their true or close-to-true meaning. Attempting to interpret them is what Allah has called to be a perversity in the hearts of those who seek to do so, as their meaning is known only to Him. No matter how hard we humans try, we can never decipher their true import and meaning.

Instead of trying to understand what was, or still remains, within Allah’s knowledge, those Muslims who are knowledgeable should contend themselves by saying: We believe in it [both the decisive and fundamental verses as well as the allegorical ones], it is all from Allah and that this belief is enough for us to retain our faith in Him and in what He has revealed to us through His Quran.

In other words, Allah has prohibited all the humans from interpreting the Quran. This restriction applies more stringently to the Muslims. They should never try to interpret anything that the Quran contains for, attempting to do so would prove that they are perverts and perverts Allah did not like in the past, nor is He going to like them in future.

Perverts and those who mislead the Muslims will become, on the Day of Judgment, the fire of Hell. The Quran is clear on this point. So the question is:

Should Muslims try to interpret the Quran even after knowing that they would be living, if they attempted to do, in their earthly life, what is forbidden, a most frightening and dreadful life in the world hereafter?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
humble wrote:
He (God) it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

That verse alone is worth it’s weight in gold in this thread!

I understand the point you are trying to make with this quote and I think it’s great: (Wahabbis, with their literal intrepretation of the Koran, are wrong.)

But why quote the Koran in English if it is not a correct translation?
[/quote]

Because it’s contextually and interpretively valid as I already mentioned.

Again, Shaykh Bill Roberts, your googling got you no where. Who exactly is Muhammad Asghar? A noboddy when it comes to scholarly input towards the religon much like many westernized Muslim opportunists.

Again I ask you, where’s your direct quotes with commentary and context?

You’re making it abundantly clear that you haven’t got an answer except that you’re happy to parade your racism, bias and ignorance.

[quote]humble wrote:
The Quran itself attests Verse 7 chapter 3 and you can rest assured I have checked with teachers as to it’s intended meaning,

He (God) it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

That verse alone is worth it’s weight in gold in this thread![/quote]

Yet, Bill Roberts doesn’t seem to have read that, or been able to distinguish the solid fundamentals from the rest.

Much like Chushin, he doesn’t make any point, preferring to sling mud in the hope that something will stick. Meanwhile, Sifu, whose ideas Bill Roberts seems to agree with, called for holding Muslims in concentration camps.

This thread is so stupid, it actually hurts. Ruckus happens in a ghetto, and Pat (yes, the one who rationalizes the bloody Spanish Inquisition) immediately associates it with Islam and Muslims. Few years back, he’d probably have jumped on the correlation-causation shortcut to blame high crime rates in the US on melanin.

I can only admire your patience on dealing with a thread whose premise is so obviously flawed. Allah al-mu’een!

The only true English transliteration - for you, lixy - of the Koran worth reading is the one by Dr. Khalifa Rashid.

I’m curious how many of you who are criticizing Sharia Law - I do, too, by the way - are the same ones who don’t have an opinion on the overly friendly US-Saudi relationship.

I thought we didn’t deal with “them dern terr’rists!” ?

All this religion talk…not that I’m very religious myself, but I never really accepted ideals from anything other than Zoroastrianism which, surprisingly, served as the basis for Islam, Christianity and Judaism.

[quote]lixy wrote:
humble wrote:
The Quran itself attests Verse 7 chapter 3 and you can rest assured I have checked with teachers as to it’s intended meaning,

He (God) it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

That verse alone is worth it’s weight in gold in this thread!

Yet, Bill Roberts doesn’t seem to have read that, or been able to distinguish the solid fundamentals from the rest.

Much like Chushin, he doesn’t make any point, preferring to sling mud in the hope that something will stick. Meanwhile, Sifu, whose ideas Bill Roberts seems to agree with, called for holding Muslims in concentration camps.

This thread is so stupid, it actually hurts. Ruckus happens in a ghetto, and Pat (yes, the one who rationalizes the bloody Spanish Inquisition) immediately associates it with Islam and Muslims. Few years back, he’d probably have jumped on the correlation-causation shortcut to blame high crime rates in the US on melanin.

I can only admire your patience on dealing with a thread whose premise is so obviously flawed. Allah al-mu’een![/quote]

Then show me the major muslim religious leaders condemning terrorism, suicide bombings, and such. where are these guys talking and preaching peace and understanding.

I’m a Protestant, a Lutheran to be specific. I have never seen any of my ministers calling for death, bombing abortion clinics, lynching gays or Muslims for their beliefs and such.

I do not see these leaders doing this. I saw people dancing in the streets after the trade center bombings. I didn’t see any Muslim countries stepping up to the plate and helping out.

You fellows can dance and debate all you want, but actions do speak louder than words. I will not have any respect for that religion until I see major leaders drop the nonsense and stop promoting terrorism.

The inability to grasp the major points is just stunning.

I also find it amusing how people reveal themselves in what they suspect of others. It is quite obvious from his knee-jerk assumptions that “humble” gets most of his information from Googling and therefore assumes everyone does.

However it’s a fallacy to project on others one’s own methods and limitations.

Even more absurd is his utter failure to grasp the problems of simultaneously denying that plain instructions and historical accounts can be taken to mean what they say, while insisting on quotations of such, further yet while being unable to come up with a single one on the matter he attacked me for himself. And on top of this, simultaneously excusing heinous acts committed in obedience to instructions of Islam according to those doing it and according to a great number of expert and revered Muslim scholars, while claiming that other such as the author I cited aren’t entitled to interpret either…

While missing the entire POINT of the article on interpretation.

We’re talking about a complete set of mental short circuits. Non-functioning. Non compos mentis.

End of story – correct information and analysis has already been put out thoroughly, and the Koolaid drinkers have more than exposed themselves thoroughly already.

[quote]tom63 wrote:
lixy wrote:

Then show me the major muslim religious leaders condemning terrorism, suicide bombings, and such. where are these guys talking and preaching peace and understanding.

I’m a Protestant, a Lutheran to be specific. I have never seen any of my ministers calling for death, bombing abortion clinics, lynching gays or Muslims for their beliefs and such.

I do not see these leaders doing this. I saw people dancing in the streets after the trade center bombings. I didn’t see any Muslim countries stepping up to the plate and helping out.

You fellows can dance and debate all you want, but actions do speak louder than words. I will not have any respect for that religion until I see major leaders drop the nonsense and stop promoting terrorism.

[/quote]

I suppose with your head buried in the newspapers and idiot boxes you will find it hard to hear about orgs like:

American Islamic Congress

Free Muslim Coalition

One of the most prominent and well spoken Muslim Scholars in the world DR Yusuf Al Qaradawi:

http://www.islamfortoday.com/qaradawi02.htm

Your very own fellow American convert: Hamza Yusuf, was advisor to George W Bush post 9/11

and this brilliant and relevant interview:

http://www.soundvision.com/info/terrorism/hamza.asp

The Grand Shaykh of one of the most prominent Muslim university/schools Shaykh Al Tantawi

Dr Mahatir Mohammad, the prime minister of Malaysia has gone on record several times stating he was against terrorism.

Imam Zaid Shakir again another American convert who denounces terrorism and goes into detail answering common questions in his lecture cd: http://www.onlineislamicstore.com/jihortercdim.html

Perhaps Our esteemed grand Shaykh of T nation Bill Roberts also forgot to quote these passages from the Quran where the context mostly is God abhoring transgressors, yes Muslim transgressors and laying the law down or so to speak about the issue.

Prohibitions on Terrorism, and Exhortations to Living with Mercy, Compassion and Patience in the Qur’an

[b][i]Whosoever kills an innocent human being, it shall be as if he has killed all mankind, and whosoever saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. (5:32)

Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and in the race for a garden wide as the heavens and the earth, prepared for the righteous- (the righteous are) those who spend whether in prosperity or adversity, who restrain anger and who pardon all people. For God loves those who do good. (3:133 ?134)

Invite all to the way of your God with wisdom and beautiful preaching. And argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious. For your God knows best who have strayed from his path and who receive guidance. And if you do respond to an attack, respond no worse than they did. But if you show patience, that is indeed the best course. Be patient- for your patience is from God . . . Indeed, God is with those who restrain themselves and those who do good. (16:125-128)

O You who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to God, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be against rich or poor, for God can best protect both. Follow not the cravings of your hearts, lest you swerve, and if you distort justice or decline to do justice, verily God is well acquainted with all that you do. (4:135)

To those who persevere in doing good is a reward more than in measure. No darkness nor shame shall cover their faces. They are companions of the garden where they will live forever. But those who have earned evil will have a reward like evil. Humiliation will cover their faces. They will have no defender from God. (10:26-27)

The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree), but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from God, for God does not love those who do wrong. But indeed if any do help and defend themselves after a wrong done to them, against such there is no cause of blame. The blame is only against those who oppress men with wrongdoing and insolently transgress beyond bounds through the land, defying right and justice, for such there will be a penalty grievous. (42:40-43)[/i][/b]

Shaykh Nuh Ha Mim Keller, another American convert and esteemed world renown scholar and my teacher in his “This is Jihad?” series of lectures where he slams terrorism and terrorists and smashes the idea to smitherines in a scholarly fashion.

You can listen to all the tracks free here:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/default.htm

just scroll down slightly.

Here is an article of his where he speaks about terrorism in detail.
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/terrorism.htm

That’s just a really quick skim off the top of my head.

I’m happy to fill page after page for you of links and names of Muslims who denounce terrorism but I doubt it would make a smidgen of difference to you. Much like the other two, you seem content praising your ill found knowledge and understanding.

Being somewhat religious/practicing I would have thought you had a little more sincerity, honesty and energy to learn of these things than to make such sweeping statements and accusations without substance or proof.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
The inability to grasp the major points is just stunning.

I also find it amusing how people reveal themselves in what they suspect of others. It is quite obvious from his knee-jerk assumptions that “humble” gets most of his information from Googling and therefore assumes everyone does.

However it’s a fallacy to project on others one’s own methods and limitations.

Even more absurd is his utter failure to grasp the problems of simultaneously denying that plain instructions and historical accounts can be taken to mean what they say, while insisting on quotations of such, further yet while being unable to come up with a single one on the matter he attacked me for himself. And on top of this, simultaneously excusing heinous acts committed in obedience to instructions of Islam according to those doing it and according to a great number of expert and revered Muslim scholars, while claiming that other such as the author I cited aren’t entitled to interpret either…

While missing the entire POINT of the article on interpretation.

We’re talking about a complete set of mental short circuits. Non-functioning. Non compos mentis.

End of story – correct information and analysis has already been put out thoroughly, and the Koolaid drinkers have more than exposed themselves thoroughly already.[/quote]

Shaykh Troll… no pots here… unless you bring a quote with the commentary and context.

You’re abductors must be really built well with all that sidestepping you do.

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Then show me the major muslim religious leaders condemning terrorism, suicide bombings, and such. where are these guys talking and preaching peace and understanding.

I’m a Protestant, a Lutheran to be specific. I have never seen any of my ministers calling for death, bombing abortion clinics, lynching gays or Muslims for their beliefs and such.

I do not see these leaders doing this. I saw people dancing in the streets after the trade center bombings. I didn’t see any Muslim countries stepping up to the plate and helping out.

You fellows can dance and debate all you want, but actions do speak louder than words. I will not have any respect for that religion until I see major leaders drop the nonsense and stop promoting terrorism.

[/quote]

Why don’t we just end with this?

That there is an extreme minority, versus the vast majority of Middle Eastern clerics, that have said as you have asked for is simply the exception that proves the rule. (With most such having to be picked from clerics outside the Middle East, or not even clerics, at that.) What the vast majority chooses, and they choose just as you say, is what has to carry the weight.

As well as the actions of course.

What you said proves the point completely regardless of the attempted distractions and pitiful evasions of the Koolaid drinker and nutcase we have had to deal with here.

(Such as the inevitable, diarrhea-like demands of my quoting a verse to prove the above that, instead of recognition and admission of the very real problems, will inevitably follow. Sorry, I’m not interested further in such. Enough has been said, the matters are thoroughly covered.)

Why all the quotes?

I thought all the English translations of the Koran were wrong.

Makes me wonder that the above quotes REALLY say in Arabic.