[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
IEverybody’s a damn hardgainer or we’d all grow muscle sitting on the couch with a beer. quote]
Huh? What? You guys don’t train like this?
Geez, I try and push out at least a 6 pack an hour 4 days a weeks. Rippling abs baby, rippling abs.
Where’s jeep69 when you need him…
I think it’s a myth. I used to weigh 125lbs back in high school, now in 2 years I’m 170. Funny part is I used to think I had the slim shoulders, but they went from 17" to 20" width, which is definitely above average. I just feel sorry for the really tall skinny-fat guys with narrow shoulders, that would suck.
[quote]Horazio wrote:
Hi,
Many BB sites say that guys with small frames will have a very hard time putting on mass.
Some other sites say that this is crap…it only matters how good you train/eat…
So, what’s your opinion ?
Do genetics matter ?![/quote]
[quote]
Basically the skinny fat hardgainer has insulin sensativity probs/glucose tolerance probs that makes them different from the easy-hardgainers.
in normal people insulin promotes cellular uptake and metabolsim of glucose by stimulating certain enzyems. Then the glucose is absorbed from the digestive system and goes thru glycolysis to either make ATP or get stored as glycogen. When insulin is not present catabolic pathways are more active than anabolic pathways. When you are catabolic(skinny- fat hardgainers are cortisol dominant/ hence why the Test is always low in them.)amino acids are converted into glucose as well as glycogen stores are also. The increased production of glucose by your cells along with your shit insulin sensativity( brought on by diet/ no conditioning/stress) leads to your cells not being able to absorb the glucose from your bloodstream and causes blood sugar to be elevated.
The skinny fat hardgainer is mostyl catabolic(skinny) becuase of the cortisol breaking down their amino’s and using it for glucose to feed the brain to fuel the stress responses you got going on in your bod all day long. (The brain will always prioritize the energy for itself first if it needs energy)thus is also tied to the situation above as why the elevated glucose in the blood- the body is always in breakdown mode.
To add insult to injury Whey protein is the last thing these kind of people want to be ingesting. Whey has what are called glucogenic amino acids (glutamine is one of em/ hence no glutamine supplementation for these guys) that will ellicit an insulin response when ingested becuase the pancreas will release insluin in their presence.
you can fix this by adding fish oil/fiber to all your meals to slow digestion.
here is a link to the fiber I get
http://store.honeyvillegrain.c…
(add 1-2 TBSP to your shakes)
as far as supps go you want to cut out all stims(caffine,tyrosine,etc…) as the will affect your epi-nor epi release and cortisol release through the day.
(Tyrosine is a precurser to Epi- Nor-epi switch that will trigger a response, the last thing we need is more stress hormones runnin thru our systems)
and R-ala for insulin sensativity as well as Vanadyl Sulfate and no fast release carbs for a while to help with you glucose tolerance/ insulin sensativity. Also cardio daily(walk) will help as will strength training.
you also have to work on your stress levels and relax and not be sou wound up so you can get out of that catabolic mode and into anabolic mode.
Phos. Serine at 800mg a day for stress)
I would also get a glucometer and see how your body reacts to certain foods and get a knowledge of your blood sugar in general. (test it on whey. you will be suprised!!!)
basically you want your body to produce insulin in the presence of a meal(120-140) then bring it down over 1-2 hrs back to what it was before the meal(75-85). you get into probs when it is still elevated long after the meal.
thats basically it, not much to it,
get your glucose toleranec/insulin sensativity under control and you will be money!![/quote]
This is something i’ve seen about this. enjoy!
For the most part it’s bullshit. By far, most people will land in the “average” category of genetics. Think about it this way: how many people have great genetics and respond very quickly to training? 5%,1%, .01%??? Whatever it is, it’s small. Statistically, there are the same percentage of people with very low response to training, so called “hardgainers”. When you think of it that way, you are rarely going to meet someone who is a true “hardgainer”, just as you are rarely going to meet a genetic freak (unless you run in circles where they proliferate, i.e. high level athletics).
[quote]Horazio wrote:
Hi,
Many BB sites say that guys with small frames will have a very hard time putting on mass.
Some other sites say that this is crap…it only matters how good you train/eat…
So, what’s your opinion ?
Do genetics matter ?![/quote]
First question: why does a guy have a small frame in the first place? Two answers (ignoring actual diseases): genetic inheritance or suboptimal nutrition during key growth stages (or, of course, a combination of these factors)
Answer to your original question: if a person has a small frame because of their genetics, they may have trouble putting on large amounts of mass (for an extreme example, think of a typical woman). However, they can still manipulate exercise and diet to improve their definition, as well as put on smaller amounts of muscle mass.
The end result will still be an aesthetic improvement, as well as doing wonders for their health and physical fitness. With this category of person, if they eat big they will probably get fat.
If a person has a small frame due to suboptimal nutrition, then with large eating and appropriate exercise they can put on plenty of muscle mass, assuming they don’t have poor genetic inheritance.
[quote]That One Guy wrote:
Horazio wrote:
Hi,
Many BB sites say that guys with small frames will have a very hard time putting on mass.
Some other sites say that this is crap…it only matters how good you train/eat…
So, what’s your opinion ?
Do genetics matter ?!
Basically the skinny fat hardgainer has insulin sensativity probs/glucose tolerance probs that makes them different from the easy-hardgainers.
in normal people insulin promotes cellular uptake and metabolsim of glucose by stimulating certain enzyems. Then the glucose is absorbed from the digestive system and goes thru glycolysis to either make ATP or get stored as glycogen. When insulin is not present catabolic pathways are more active than anabolic pathways. When you are catabolic(skinny- fat hardgainers are cortisol dominant/ hence why the Test is always low in them.)amino acids are converted into glucose as well as glycogen stores are also. The increased production of glucose by your cells along with your shit insulin sensativity( brought on by diet/ no conditioning/stress) leads to your cells not being able to absorb the glucose from your bloodstream and causes blood sugar to be elevated.
The skinny fat hardgainer is mostyl catabolic(skinny) becuase of the cortisol breaking down their amino’s and using it for glucose to feed the brain to fuel the stress responses you got going on in your bod all day long. (The brain will always prioritize the energy for itself first if it needs energy)thus is also tied to the situation above as why the elevated glucose in the blood- the body is always in breakdown mode.
To add insult to injury Whey protein is the last thing these kind of people want to be ingesting. Whey has what are called glucogenic amino acids (glutamine is one of em/ hence no glutamine supplementation for these guys) that will ellicit an insulin response when ingested becuase the pancreas will release insluin in their presence.
you can fix this by adding fish oil/fiber to all your meals to slow digestion.
here is a link to the fiber I get
http://store.honeyvillegrain.c…
(add 1-2 TBSP to your shakes)
as far as supps go you want to cut out all stims(caffine,tyrosine,etc…) as the will affect your epi-nor epi release and cortisol release through the day.
(Tyrosine is a precurser to Epi- Nor-epi switch that will trigger a response, the last thing we need is more stress hormones runnin thru our systems)
and R-ala for insulin sensativity as well as Vanadyl Sulfate and no fast release carbs for a while to help with you glucose tolerance/ insulin sensativity. Also cardio daily(walk) will help as will strength training.
you also have to work on your stress levels and relax and not be sou wound up so you can get out of that catabolic mode and into anabolic mode.
Phos. Serine at 800mg a day for stress)
I would also get a glucometer and see how your body reacts to certain foods and get a knowledge of your blood sugar in general. (test it on whey. you will be suprised!!!)
basically you want your body to produce insulin in the presence of a meal(120-140) then bring it down over 1-2 hrs back to what it was before the meal(75-85). you get into probs when it is still elevated long after the meal.
thats basically it, not much to it,
get your glucose toleranec/insulin sensativity under control and you will be money!!
This is something i’ve seen about this. enjoy![/quote]
Yup- I posted that in another hardgiainer thread. I wrote an article on it but dont know where to send it to get it submitted in the random acts section.
I will answer the questions abaove when I get a little more time.
[quote]jeep69 wrote:
That One Guy wrote:
Horazio wrote:
Hi,
Many BB sites say that guys with small frames will have a very hard time putting on mass.
Some other sites say that this is crap…it only matters how good you train/eat…
So, what’s your opinion ?
Do genetics matter ?!
Basically the skinny fat hardgainer has insulin sensativity probs/glucose tolerance probs that makes them different from the easy-hardgainers.
in normal people insulin promotes cellular uptake and metabolsim of glucose by stimulating certain enzyems. Then the glucose is absorbed from the digestive system and goes thru glycolysis to either make ATP or get stored as glycogen. When insulin is not present catabolic pathways are more active than anabolic pathways. When you are catabolic(skinny- fat hardgainers are cortisol dominant/ hence why the Test is always low in them.)amino acids are converted into glucose as well as glycogen stores are also. The increased production of glucose by your cells along with your shit insulin sensativity( brought on by diet/ no conditioning/stress) leads to your cells not being able to absorb the glucose from your bloodstream and causes blood sugar to be elevated.
The skinny fat hardgainer is mostyl catabolic(skinny) becuase of the cortisol breaking down their amino’s and using it for glucose to feed the brain to fuel the stress responses you got going on in your bod all day long. (The brain will always prioritize the energy for itself first if it needs energy)thus is also tied to the situation above as why the elevated glucose in the blood- the body is always in breakdown mode.
To add insult to injury Whey protein is the last thing these kind of people want to be ingesting. Whey has what are called glucogenic amino acids (glutamine is one of em/ hence no glutamine supplementation for these guys) that will ellicit an insulin response when ingested becuase the pancreas will release insluin in their presence.
you can fix this by adding fish oil/fiber to all your meals to slow digestion.
here is a link to the fiber I get
http://store.honeyvillegrain.c…
(add 1-2 TBSP to your shakes)
as far as supps go you want to cut out all stims(caffine,tyrosine,etc…) as the will affect your epi-nor epi release and cortisol release through the day.
(Tyrosine is a precurser to Epi- Nor-epi switch that will trigger a response, the last thing we need is more stress hormones runnin thru our systems)
and R-ala for insulin sensativity as well as Vanadyl Sulfate and no fast release carbs for a while to help with you glucose tolerance/ insulin sensativity. Also cardio daily(walk) will help as will strength training.
you also have to work on your stress levels and relax and not be sou wound up so you can get out of that catabolic mode and into anabolic mode.
Phos. Serine at 800mg a day for stress)
I would also get a glucometer and see how your body reacts to certain foods and get a knowledge of your blood sugar in general. (test it on whey. you will be suprised!!!)
basically you want your body to produce insulin in the presence of a meal(120-140) then bring it down over 1-2 hrs back to what it was before the meal(75-85). you get into probs when it is still elevated long after the meal.
thats basically it, not much to it,
get your glucose toleranec/insulin sensativity under control and you will be money!!
This is something i’ve seen about this. enjoy!
Yup- I posted that in another hardgiainer thread. I wrote an article on it but dont know where to send it to get it submitted in the random acts section.
I will answer the questions abaove when I get a little more time.[/quote]
whooo! jeep69. I was asking for you on the first page.
A “hardgainer” is just a beginner who’s never kept a food log.
Even if I’m a total beginner I came to my own conclusion to determine wheter someone is or not an hardgainer.
Just use statistics!
It’s needed a database that stores info such as : age,sex,type of exercise in examination,years of training,reps,sets,kilos…
(Numerical values)
The more data the database has the more accurate will be the conclusions.
With something like this it will be easy to know if someone is an hard gainer.
[quote]Horazio wrote:
Even if I’m a total beginner I came to my own conclusion to determine wheter someone is or not an hardgainer.
Just use statistics!
It’s needed a database that stores info such as : age,sex,type of exercise in examination,years of training,reps,sets,kilos…
(Numerical values)
The more data the database has the more accurate will be the conclusions.
With something like this it will be easy to know if someone is an hard gainer.[/quote]
If I was you I’d put more energy into your training and nutrition rather than worrying about what makes a hardgainer.
Why this obsession about being a hardgainer when you’re a beginner? Its like a CFB angsting about his slow metabolism before spending at least a year cutting down.
[quote]Horazio wrote:
Even if I’m a total beginner I came to my own conclusion to determine wheter someone is or not an hardgainer.
Just use statistics!
It’s needed a database that stores info such as : age,sex,type of exercise in examination,years of training,reps,sets,kilos…
(Numerical values)
The more data the database has the more accurate will be the conclusions.
With something like this it will be easy to know if someone is an hard gainer.[/quote]
I put people who claim to be a “hardgainer” in the same category as fat people who point at a cheeseburger and say, “If I ate that, I’d gain 5 pounds. My metabolism is so slow.”
[quote]Horazio wrote:
Even if I’m a total beginner I came to my own conclusion to determine wheter someone is or not an hardgainer.
Just use statistics!
It’s needed a database that stores info such as : age,sex,type of exercise in examination,years of training,reps,sets,kilos…
(Numerical values)
The more data the database has the more accurate will be the conclusions.
With something like this it will be easy to know if someone is an hard gainer.[/quote]
You’re strokin your own fur the wrong way dude. If you spent this much energy lifting weights while eating a bunch of good food and getting some sleep you’d eventually wonder why you ever asked this question in the first place.
[quote]Keyser Soze wrote:
Horazio wrote:
Even if I’m a total beginner I came to my own conclusion to determine wheter someone is or not an hardgainer.
Just use statistics!
It’s needed a database that stores info such as : age,sex,type of exercise in examination,years of training,reps,sets,kilos…
(Numerical values)
The more data the database has the more accurate will be the conclusions.
With something like this it will be easy to know if someone is an hard gainer.
If I was you I’d put more energy into your training and nutrition rather than worrying about what makes a hardgainer.
[/quote]
Ya beat me to it, should’ve read further.
I am pressed for time yet again so I will do what I can.
as for the origional question posed by Horazo- Anyone can have a hard time putting on mass no matter what the frame size. Genetics are the number one factor that will determine your success in bodybuilding and strength training. Anyone that says they are not the number one determining factor is talking out their ass!
That being said the term “hardgainer” si thrown around WAAAY too much and this is why it gets a bad rap. 75% of the people that claim to be a hardgainer are only a hardgainer becuase they are responsible for it, called functional hardgainers. These are the guys that do stupid routines and do not eat near enough food for their body to grow off of. Their routines are piss poor and they do not even create innervention gains that lead to strength increases.
Genetics in a very broad sense of the term mean you muscle length,tendon length and overall bone structure and this = leverage and joint advantages, disadvantages. ( a guy with T-rex arms is going to bench much more that a guy with arms as long a s a broomstick.)Muscle and tendon length also play a very important part in the equation of building muscle and how much muscle you can build. Just becuase you have long arms does not mean you have long muscle bellies( which you want for bodybuilding)your long ass arms could consist of very long tendons and shor muscle bellies which would limit the overall growth potential as well as make it damn hard to get tension on the muscle in the correct way.
BASICALLY- alot of hardgainers build makes it hard to place correct tension on the muscle, their bones and tendons get in the way!!
Genetics also deals with the amount of muscle fibers in a muscle as well as internal hormone signaling as the number and amount of steroid, peptide, and amine hormones and their receptors will vary greatly from person to person.
This is a very broad scope on genetics.
as for some of the other comments as thaere is no such thing as a hardgainer or “genetics are only used as a crutch for lazy people” and my favorite “its basically crap!” I understand why you would say this but you are so far from knowing what you are talking about it is scary.
There are true hardgainers out there and they are not as rare as one would think.
I love the so called coaches who simply tell you to “eat,eat,and eat more”. Yup that will sure do you a whole lot of good, you once were skinny now your fat, that is not a good look or feeling to go through.
If you dont understand this concept then look at the above post where i spelled it ALL out for you. I discuss different kinds of hardgainers in there.
For the hardgainers there are fixes that will help lead them to their goals. Work capacity and glucose tolerance must be brought up. These are both fixed by conditioning such as high intensity cardio a few days a week that is broken into slowly and regular cardio conditioning such as walking.
That is why I always laugh my ass off ath the peopel who tell hardgainers not to do cardio. HARDGAINERS NEED TO DO DAILY CARDIO>!!
cardiovascular conditioning helps with nutrient partioning and brings up glucose tolerance. This helps get you more out of your food and your supps that you take. (basically lets you eat more food and not get fat, such a magic process!)
Hardgainers are also low in HCL levels and shoudl be using digestive enzymes to bring up digestive capacity.
as far as training goes hardgainers need to stay away from failure training alltogether and focus on only big compound lifts with their main goals being strength oriented until they can dead 350-400 and squat 315-350. with a bench of 250-275.
you cannot build anything without a base of fitness and strength. this is the most important thing anyeone shoudl worry about, hardgainer or not. YOU MUST FOCUS ON BUILDING A GOOD FITNESS BASE/CONDITIONING LEVEL AND A BASE LEVEL OF STRENGTH USEING 5 BASIC EXCERCISES BEFORE YOU EVEN CONCERN YOURSELF WITH ANY “HYPERTROPHY” WORK.
Building the strength base often puts an end to the hardgainers worry about size concerns. If you add 100lbs to your bench or dead over a few years you are going to be a shit load bigger, guaranteed.
Do you meant “innervation” gains as in increased neural supply to the muscle? If so, how would it be possible to do so after a certain age? As I understand, the main reason for lagging bodyparts is poor innervation and that cannot be changed.
Or perhaps youre referring to neuromuscular conditioning that allows you to recruit (and hence stress) many more fibers thus opening the possibility of hypertrophy
[quote]jeep69 wrote:
I am pressed for time yet again so I will do what I can.
as for the origional question posed by Horazo- Anyone can have a hard time putting on mass no matter what the frame size. Genetics are the number one factor that will determine your success in bodybuilding and strength training. Anyone that says they are not the number one determining factor is talking out their ass!
That being said the term “hardgainer” si thrown around WAAAY too much and this is why it gets a bad rap. 75% of the people that claim to be a hardgainer are only a hardgainer becuase they are responsible for it, called functional hardgainers. These are the guys that do stupid routines and do not eat near enough food for their body to grow off of. Their routines are piss poor and they do not even create innervention gains that lead to strength increases.
Genetics in a very broad sense of the term mean you muscle length,tendon length and overall bone structure and this = leverage and joint advantages, disadvantages. ( a guy with T-rex arms is going to bench much more that a guy with arms as long a s a broomstick.)Muscle and tendon length also play a very important part in the equation of building muscle and how much muscle you can build. Just becuase you have long arms does not mean you have long muscle bellies( which you want for bodybuilding)your long ass arms could consist of very long tendons and shor muscle bellies which would limit the overall growth potential as well as make it damn hard to get tension on the muscle in the correct way.
BASICALLY- alot of hardgainers build makes it hard to place correct tension on the muscle, their bones and tendons get in the way!!
Genetics also deals with the amount of muscle fibers in a muscle as well as internal hormone signaling as the number and amount of steroid, peptide, and amine hormones and their receptors will vary greatly from person to person.
This is a very broad scope on genetics.
as for some of the other comments as thaere is no such thing as a hardgainer or “genetics are only used as a crutch for lazy people” and my favorite “its basically crap!” I understand why you would say this but you are so far from knowing what you are talking about it is scary.
There are true hardgainers out there and they are not as rare as one would think.
I love the so called coaches who simply tell you to “eat,eat,and eat more”. Yup that will sure do you a whole lot of good, you once were skinny now your fat, that is not a good look or feeling to go through.
If you dont understand this concept then look at the above post where i spelled it ALL out for you. I discuss different kinds of hardgainers in there.
For the hardgainers there are fixes that will help lead them to their goals. Work capacity and glucose tolerance must be brought up. These are both fixed by conditioning such as high intensity cardio a few days a week that is broken into slowly and regular cardio conditioning such as walking.
That is why I always laugh my ass off ath the peopel who tell hardgainers not to do cardio. HARDGAINERS NEED TO DO DAILY CARDIO>!!
cardiovascular conditioning helps with nutrient partioning and brings up glucose tolerance. This helps get you more out of your food and your supps that you take. (basically lets you eat more food and not get fat, such a magic process!)
Hardgainers are also low in HCL levels and shoudl be using digestive enzymes to bring up digestive capacity.
as far as training goes hardgainers need to stay away from failure training alltogether and focus on only big compound lifts with their main goals being strength oriented until they can dead 350-400 and squat 315-350. with a bench of 250-275.
you cannot build anything without a base of fitness and strength. this is the most important thing anyeone shoudl worry about, hardgainer or not. YOU MUST FOCUS ON BUILDING A GOOD FITNESS BASE/CONDITIONING LEVEL AND A BASE LEVEL OF STRENGTH USEING 5 BASIC EXCERCISES BEFORE YOU EVEN CONCERN YOURSELF WITH ANY “HYPERTROPHY” WORK.
Building the strength base often puts an end to the hardgainers worry about size concerns. If you add 100lbs to your bench or dead over a few years you are going to be a shit load bigger, guaranteed.[/quote]
Pure Bull
I am 5’8" 153 lbs.
The problem is with guys like me we can’t get it in our heads to put on the mass because no drunks want to fight us at the bars. that is we have a hard time making the decision. I made the decision just last week at the age of 39, better late than never. when I am buff and carrying mass, tell me then we small framed guys can’t do it.
[quote]jeep69 wrote:
Muscle and tendon length also play a very important part in the equation of building muscle and how much muscle you can build. Just becuase you have long arms does not mean you have long muscle bellies( which you want for bodybuilding)your long ass arms could consist of very long tendons and shor muscle bellies which would limit the overall growth potential as well as make it damn hard to get tension on the muscle in the correct way.
I think i may fall into this camp. Do you have any way of finding this out for yourself or at least working around it?. Are their any links you can suggest ? I remeber reading an article some time back dealing with this and it mentioned, for instance, that a taller lifter with long arms may be better served by a pec fly instead of a bench because it is easier to get the muscles tensioned this way.
dead 350-400 and squat 315-350. with a bench of 250-275.
Man, i have along way to go.
YOU MUST FOCUS ON BUILDING A GOOD FITNESS BASE/CONDITIONING LEVEL AND A BASE LEVEL OF STRENGTH USEING 5 BASIC EXCERCISES BEFORE YOU EVEN CONCERN YOURSELF WITH ANY “HYPERTROPHY” WORK.
These 5 exercises: Squat, lower pull, press, push, row? Correct? As far as a good fitness base/conditioning, could this be acheived using bodyweight only then going to the weights?
B[/quote]