Gymnasts Benefit From Strength Training?

Training Powerlifting
41

Since they can’t see it the date is 1996

some excerpts…

“Training to increase muscle size and strength is important, but maximum strength from minimum size is the most important training goal.”

“Most important for gymnastics is the insight that maximal strength can also be increased without increasing muscle mass (Bührle and Werner, 1984; Poliquin, 1991; Verchoshanskij, 1985). Increasing strength without increasing muscle mass is important in gymnastics because the gymnast must move his or her own body. In gymnastics the power-to-body-weight ratio is a factor that decisively influences performance. It is the power-to-weight ratio that strongly influences gymnastics performance, not strength alone.”

An athlete’s maximal strength will usually be lower than that athlete’s absolute strength. The difference between the absolute strength and the maximal strength is termed the strength deficit (Bührle and Schmidtbleicher, 1981). This is because even well trained athletes cannot use all of the fibers in their muscles at once. A “big” muscle is not necessarily the strongest one, particularly if a substantial fraction of the absolute strength cannot be voluntarily and skillfully applied. This is the strength deficit.

Muscle hypertrophy training like the REF program will tend to increase the strength deficit, while maximal strength training like the MAX program will tend to decrease the gymnast’s strength deficit (Table 1). For example, body builders usually have a very high absolute strength, but also a relatively large strength deficit.

Great article i read this a loooong time ago…

42

So basically the only exercises they do is trying to master what they show us off in events?
Anyway this shit is sick.

43

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
You’d be surprised how strong pistols make you…

How strong is it possible to become with bodyweight exercises? Amazingly strong. In fact I would go so far as to say, done correctly, far stronger than someone who had trained for the same amount of time with free weights. Want some concrete examples? One of my former students, JJ Gregory (1993 Junior National Champion on the Still Rings) developed such a high degree of strength from my bodyweight conditioning program that on his first day in his high school weightlifting class he deadlifted 400lbs., and this at the scale breaking weight of 135 lbs. and a height of 5’3.

http://www.amgym.com/tt/index_163.cfm

http://www.powerathletesmag.com/archives/eight/gymnastics.htm

[/quote]

So a first time deadlift was almost 3xbw (2.96xbw actualy) without any prior training in this lift. Ima sensing serious fucking bullshit and exageration in these claims - but hey im not suprised… sommer was still promoting his book on bodyweight conditioning on a site dedicated to bodyweight/kettlebells… its natural some bullshit will sneak in.

I mean even with the more biomechanically efficient starting position due to being only 5 foot 3… 3xbw deadlift on first attemt I simply cannot believe. I mean why would the grip strength even be there - even one handed pullups all day long wouldnt break 135lb load… not the 200lb per hand required to hold 400lbs. Same applies for the back strength too… and the grip/upper back would be the areas of a ring specialist I would expect to be the strongest. Im not even going to get onto how I cant see the lower back and hip/knee extension strength to simply shift this much load.

The weighted pullups are MUCH more believable 75lbs is about 55% added bodyweight - a few months back at a bodyweight of 80kg I managed 40kg of additional load for a couple of reps when I was playing around with weighted pullups. Admittedly I had some previous practice in this exercise but I would still not consider myself even an intermediate lifter… And yes I am aware of the fact that coach sommer points out that they could not add any more load due to the equipment.

0.55xbw pullup… 2.96xbw deadlift? something isnt adding up here.

What ever happened to that book anyway?

44

Don’t forget the hip/PC chain power needed for backflips and the like.

45

As a gymnast, I can attest to the fact that weight training is needed only to build strength for heavy ring techniques. I never strength trained for any other event in 7+ years of training.

Once dips get too easy on p-bars, you go to the rings. Once handstand presses get too easy on floor or p-bars, you go to the rings. Ad nauseum.

There are lifts that coaches had us do to develop strength for maltese presses, inverted crosses, and moves like an azarian or bounce cross. However, the bulk of the training is holding positions. Cross pullouts to momentary holds were crucial in developing the cross and L-cross. Planche progressions on parallettes and low rings were also crucial.

When it comes to the other events, though, as you mastered certain techniques (through practice and conditioning), you simply moved to more complex ones. Master the backflip, now throw in a twist. Solid handstand on p-bars, now go for the pirouette.

Very little strength training is performed outside the gym, and it would not help a gymnast overall because of the risk of adding unnecessary bulk and wasting time that could be diverted to mastering gymnastic technique. Lifting in addition to practicing increases the need for recovery time as well, which is a detriment to the next training session. Keep in mind that elite gymnasts train like it’s a full time job; 20+ hours a week no sweat. Add lifting on top of that and you’re overtraining.

46

[quote]namanga2 wrote:
As a gymnast, I can attest to the fact that weight training is needed only to build strength for heavy ring techniques. I never strength trained for any other event in 7+ years of training.

Once dips get too easy on p-bars, you go to the rings. Once handstand presses get too easy on floor or p-bars, you go to the rings. Ad nauseum.

There are lifts that coaches had us do to develop strength for maltese presses, inverted crosses, and moves like an azarian or bounce cross. However, the bulk of the training is holding positions. Cross pullouts to momentary holds were crucial in developing the cross and L-cross. Planche progressions on parallettes and low rings were also crucial.

When it comes to the other events, though, as you mastered certain techniques (through practice and conditioning), you simply moved to more complex ones. Master the backflip, now throw in a twist. Solid handstand on p-bars, now go for the pirouette.

Very little strength training is performed outside the gym, and it would not help a gymnast overall because of the risk of adding unnecessary bulk and wasting time that could be diverted to mastering gymnastic technique. Lifting in addition to practicing increases the need for recovery time as well, which is a detriment to the next training session. Keep in mind that elite gymnasts train like it’s a full time job; 20+ hours a week no sweat. Add lifting on top of that and you’re overtraining.
[/quote]

wouldn’t something like a power clean and military press done 2x a week benefit some though, like lets say 4x3 on the cleans and 3x5 on militaries, isn’t a lot of work and will strengthen some key components to the human machine.

47

[quote]benmoore wrote:
I mean why would the grip strength even be there - even one handed pullups all day long wouldnt break 135lb load… not the 200lb per hand required to hold 400lbs. Same applies for the back strength too… and the grip/upper back would be the areas of a ring specialist I would expect to be the strongest. Im not even going to get onto how I cant see the lower back and hip/knee extension strength to simply shift this much load.

The weighted pullups are MUCH more believable 75lbs is about 55% added bodyweight - a few months back at a bodyweight of 80kg I managed 40kg of additional load for a couple of reps when I was playing around with weighted pullups. Admittedly I had some previous practice in this exercise but I would still not consider myself even an intermediate lifter… And yes I am aware of the fact that coach sommer points out that they could not add any more load due to the equipment.

0.55xbw pullup… 2.96xbw deadlift? something isnt adding up here.

What ever happened to that book anyway?[/quote]

I’m not sure if the 400lb DL is legit, but remember that a gymnast’s grip is stressed well above their bodyweight, moves like Giants have a very high centrifugal force, and the release and catch movements require a grip well above that required to hang.

48

Err…I think gymnastics would probably be “traditional strength training.”

And… lifting weights would be “newfangled strength training.”

I could be wrong, but climbing trees prolly precedes lifting rocks.

As far as civilization goes, I think gymnastics has been around for longer.

Weightlifting is a fairly recent invention.

49

[quote]Rick Jakubowski wrote:
benmoore wrote:
I mean why would the grip strength even be there - even one handed pullups all day long wouldnt break 135lb load… not the 200lb per hand required to hold 400lbs. Same applies for the back strength too… and the grip/upper back would be the areas of a ring specialist I would expect to be the strongest. Im not even going to get onto how I cant see the lower back and hip/knee extension strength to simply shift this much load.

The weighted pullups are MUCH more believable 75lbs is about 55% added bodyweight - a few months back at a bodyweight of 80kg I managed 40kg of additional load for a couple of reps when I was playing around with weighted pullups. Admittedly I had some previous practice in this exercise but I would still not consider myself even an intermediate lifter… And yes I am aware of the fact that coach sommer points out that they could not add any more load due to the equipment.

0.55xbw pullup… 2.96xbw deadlift? something isnt adding up here.

What ever happened to that book anyway?

I’m not sure if the 400lb DL is legit, but remember that a gymnast’s grip is stressed well above their bodyweight, moves like Giants have a very high centrifugal force, and the release and catch movements require a grip well above that required to hang.[/quote]

Yes.

benmoore, have you ever thrown a hammer or spun something around on a rope?

Try it. You’ll notice that, even with something light, as you speed up, it starts pulling away from you with some good force. Now imagine that it’s “you” on the end of that rope: a 135 mass at high speed. It’s going to take some serious grip strength to hang on – easily equivalent to deadlifting a couple times your bodyweight. That’s what a gymnast experiences during swings on the high bar or on the rings.

Likewise, that force is not just on the grip – it’s on the back and midsection. Think about when you accelerate very fast in a car and you’re pushed back into your seat. The gymnast experiences the same type of thing as accelerates from the top of the bar down through the bottom, but often at greater forces; however, there’s no seat or support to resist the body’s movement. It’s all down to the lower back and midsection.

So, while I can’t make a claim for exactly where the leg strength comes from, it’s easy to see that grip and back strength should not be a problem for a high level gymnast.

50

[quote]zephead4747 wrote:
namanga2 wrote:
As a gymnast, I can attest to the fact that weight training is needed only to build strength for heavy ring techniques. I never strength trained for any other event in 7+ years of training.

Once dips get too easy on p-bars, you go to the rings. Once handstand presses get too easy on floor or p-bars, you go to the rings. Ad nauseum.

There are lifts that coaches had us do to develop strength for maltese presses, inverted crosses, and moves like an azarian or bounce cross. However, the bulk of the training is holding positions. Cross pullouts to momentary holds were crucial in developing the cross and L-cross. Planche progressions on parallettes and low rings were also crucial.

When it comes to the other events, though, as you mastered certain techniques (through practice and conditioning), you simply moved to more complex ones. Master the backflip, now throw in a twist. Solid handstand on p-bars, now go for the pirouette.

Very little strength training is performed outside the gym, and it would not help a gymnast overall because of the risk of adding unnecessary bulk and wasting time that could be diverted to mastering gymnastic technique. Lifting in addition to practicing increases the need for recovery time as well, which is a detriment to the next training session. Keep in mind that elite gymnasts train like it’s a full time job; 20+ hours a week no sweat. Add lifting on top of that and you’re overtraining.

wouldn’t something like a power clean and military press done 2x a week benefit some though, like lets say 4x3 on the cleans and 3x5 on militaries, isn’t a lot of work and will strengthen some key components to the human machine.[/quote]

Only when you’re younger and developing muscle. By the time you’re working strength to really develop muscle, handstand pushups replace military presses and casts/kips replace power cleans. Good thought for those who are arriving to the sport late in the game, but for those who have been doing it since they were knee high to a grasshopper, it’s kind of moot.

51

Also, I noticed a discrepancy in my original post. When I say I never “strength trained” for any other event, I meant weightlifting. Sorry for any confusion.

I certainly strength trained for EVERY event.

52

On the subject of gymnasts and weightlifting, I’ve been training a girl recently who’s been national level gymnast now retired but still works as an acrobat.

She weighs 55kg and is 5ft

In four bench sessions she’s now benching 60kgx3

In about two deadlift sessions she snatch grip deadlifted 110kgx5

and has also front squated 90kgx5

Not bad for someone who has never lifted weights before eh?

Also one thing I noticed when I started lifting weights is that the motion for a power-clean is the exact same hip motion as you do for pretty much every backwards tumbling skill, the only difference being in backwards tumbling you are falling slightly off balance and have a different arm motion.

53

Keep in mind that gymnasts also regularly fling themselves off bars and rings and land on their feet from a height of 8-9 feet and must absorb all that force in order to ‘stick.’ If that isn’t a form of posterior chain training I don’t know what is…

54

I can’t hold the frog stand for more than (20) seconds now, but its purely a balance issue. I learned the hard way after a few attempts without pillows to fall forward on

I can do the tuck front levers pretty easy though, will give 60 seconds a try! hah. This stuff is interesting and seems like very useful addition to training, I’ve got some parallettes at home I’m gonna start working on too.

55

dude, can you bust out 20+ pistols?

Hell my gf is a collegiate gymnast and was just fucking around in the gym while i was lifting

she did a 5-6 pistols with the bar in overhead squat position for SHITS AND GIGGLES.

gymnasts are absurdly strong. the deadlift doesn’t surprise me much at all, and the dip belt broke i guarantee he could have pulled a LOT more than just 70lbs thats where they stopped b4 the chain broke

56

what exactly is a pistol? What would be a good gymnastics book for someone who wants to use base gymnastics as a tool to improve their functional strength, coordination, balance, and explosiveness?

57

single leg squat with other leg extended in front, google/youtube it.

i personally don’t bother much with pistols and just use single leg elevated squats cause its easier to maintain a neutral lower back position.

When you start to become proficient at these you will feel absolutely every muscle in your leg working. Good stuff.

currently at 20-30 on each leg (hamstring to calves), and a single with 60lbs (concentric only, hamstring to calves)

For the upper body, if you can do any single arm chins, and full ROM handstand pushups for 10 reps, you will have more than a decent level of strength.

p.s. I lift weights a lot, too.

58

what kind of twisted people are these? That’s absolutely sickening.

I went down to parallel and the strain on my knee and lower thigh was unbelievable. No idea how they balance that shit. Ankle flexion has to be crucial too. Nice little bw movement there =O

59

Full One Leg Squats are one of my personal favourites I’m performing sets of 30 with each leg at the moment, pretty painful, good painful though.

Can anyone here do a One Arm Pull/Chin up? I’m currently working on NO versions of these exercise to build up strength to do a full one, getting close.

60

[quote]Hanley wrote:
I think considering the knowledge and experience some countries have with traning gymnasts, if strength training made them better then they’d be doing it.
[/quote]

I’m pretty damn sure if external loading would help gymnasts, the Russians would have already figured it out 30 years ago.