Good Bye Squats. Hello Leg Press.

Training Bodybuilding
121

[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
leg extension might be good for bodybuilding, esp for bringing up the VM… but functionally they’re pretty useless (if you participate in sport) - Mainly because they train a motor pattern that you’d never use and they put a shear force across the knee which isn’t very healthy…just my 2 cents.[/quote]

I think that’s pretty misleading. If you make your quadriceps stronger - you will be able to run faster. My best friend has an elite 100m and he can do leg extensions all day with 250lbs.

Those whole bodybuilding vs. functional arguments are bullshit.[/quote]

Agreed. It holds no water and personal trainers get clients by spreading this bullshit.

The belief that a stronger bigger muscle can somehow ONLY perform the way it was trained makes no logical sense.

It implies that squatting or leg extensions won’t help you push a truck down the street. Using this logic, you could only push a truck if you trained doing walking lunges.[/quote]

Don’t tell me what i was implying, because you’re an idiot - I said for a sporting person(ie footballer) training your quads with isolate training is stupid, not only because it has limited functional cross over(ie waste of your time), but it doesnt protect any of your joints in movements such as running and cutting. I didnt say they were useless, just that there are better ways to do it. open your minds and stop jumping on people who have a different, and probably more informed opinion than your own.

[/quote]
all you showed here was that a guy with an elite 100m has strong legs, not that the leg extension is a good machine for sprinters and other athletes. There is a reason that sprinters squat not leg press/extension. It is because after years of trial and error from thousands of coaches, the athletic communtity (the intelligent members anyways) has realized what the best exercises for sport transfer are, which is what they use. Use what works.[/quote]

haha you just stepped into a shit storm big guy. I’d get your shit umbrella.

122

[quote]actionboy wrote:

[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
leg extension might be good for bodybuilding, esp for bringing up the VM… but functionally they’re pretty useless (if you participate in sport) - Mainly because they train a motor pattern that you’d never use and they put a shear force across the knee which isn’t very healthy…just my 2 cents.[/quote]

I think that’s pretty misleading. If you make your quadriceps stronger - you will be able to run faster. My best friend has an elite 100m and he can do leg extensions all day with 250lbs.

Those whole bodybuilding vs. functional arguments are bullshit.[/quote]

Agreed. It holds no water and personal trainers get clients by spreading this bullshit.

The belief that a stronger bigger muscle can somehow ONLY perform the way it was trained makes no logical sense.

It implies that squatting or leg extensions won’t help you push a truck down the street. Using this logic, you could only push a truck if you trained doing walking lunges.[/quote]

Don’t tell me what i was implying, because you’re an idiot - I said for a sporting person(ie footballer) training your quads with isolate training is stupid, not only because it has limited functional cross over(ie waste of your time), but it doesnt protect any of your joints in movements such as running and cutting. I didnt say they were useless, just that there are better ways to do it. open your minds and stop jumping on people who have a different, and probably more informed opinion than your own.

[/quote]
all you showed here was that a guy with an elite 100m has strong legs, not that the leg extension is a good machine for sprinters and other athletes. There is a reason that sprinters squat not leg press/extension. It is because after years of trial and error from thousands of coaches, the athletic communtity (the intelligent members anyways) has realized what the best exercises for sport transfer are, which is what they use. Use what works.[/quote]

haha you just stepped into a shit storm big guy. I’d get your shit umbrella. [/quote]
Yeaaaaaah! And don’t forget to grab your shitcoat (like a rain coat but for shit)

123

Guess I’ll be adding leg extensions back. Holy hell!

124

[quote]dday wrote:

Guess I’ll be adding leg extensions back. Holy hell![/quote]

I guess I’m training legs tonight.

Notice how his legs do NOT go under the chair. The speed he does them is about the same as I do it, but I hold the top contraction while it seems he rests a little before going back up.

125

[quote]dday wrote:

Guess I’ll be adding leg extensions back. Holy hell![/quote]

Well there you go! Clearly he is not functional and his right miniscus is going to rupture due to the pronation of his frontal teardrop. :wink: (sarcasm)

126

[quote]SILVERDAN7 wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]krazykoukides wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
leg extension might be good for bodybuilding, esp for bringing up the VM… but functionally they’re pretty useless (if you participate in sport) - Mainly because they train a motor pattern that you’d never use and they put a shear force across the knee which isn’t very healthy…just my 2 cents.[/quote]

I think that’s pretty misleading. If you make your quadriceps stronger - you will be able to run faster. My best friend has an elite 100m and he can do leg extensions all day with 250lbs.

Those whole bodybuilding vs. functional arguments are bullshit.[/quote]

Agreed. It holds no water and personal trainers get clients by spreading this bullshit.

The belief that a stronger bigger muscle can somehow ONLY perform the way it was trained makes no logical sense.

It implies that squatting or leg extensions won’t help you push a truck down the street. Using this logic, you could only push a truck if you trained doing walking lunges.[/quote]

Don’t tell me what i was implying, because you’re an idiot - I said for a sporting person(ie footballer) training your quads with isolate training is stupid, not only because it has limited functional cross over(ie waste of your time), but it doesnt protect any of your joints in movements such as running and cutting. I didnt say they were useless, just that there are better ways to do it. open your minds and stop jumping on people who have a different, and probably more informed opinion than your own.

[/quote]
all you showed here was that a guy with an elite 100m has strong legs, not that the leg extension is a good machine for sprinters and other athletes. There is a reason that sprinters squat not leg press/extension. It is because after years of trial and error from thousands of coaches, the athletic communtity (the intelligent members anyways) has realized what the best exercises for sport transfer are, which is what they use. Use what works.[/quote]

Pretty much what i thought when i read this…

It wasnt a shit fight? its a fucking online forum jesus…it was me trying to discuss a different point of view, and everyone abusing me for it, with nothing backing up their claims. I wouldn’t have reposted not for the fact the guy told me to prove it, so i did…

127

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]GluteusGigantis wrote:
For people with frontsquat form issues I like to get them to do 2 things prior to starting.

  1. Do an overhead squat (bar only) to learn what the trunk posture should feel like.
  2. Do a front squat without holding the bar (magic eh!)…arms straight out in front, bar in the proper position (you’ll find it quick).

Do a few of each of those and wham bam you’re away.[/quote]

That’s good advice.

Also, learn to front squat without holding on to the bar at all, the bar simply rests behind your delts and against your neck, with your arms straight out in front of you, like this:

This is great for reinforcing form prompts, along with boosting confidence. [/quote]

Wow. That’s impressive to say the least. How many guys on this forum can match that? Question HFM: how tall are you and how much do you weigh? Also, I’ve seen your bb row videos and just deadlifting the weigh up is impressive itself. However, your rom is very limited. Do you feel that the weight and intensity trump rom? It certainly has worked for you.

128

[quote]FattyFat wrote:

And leg presses aggravate my lower back :frowning:

[/quote]

Have ever tried them one leg at a time? I have a couple herniated discs in my lower back and regular leg presses strained and aggravated it. But once I tried them one leg at a time 1 felt ZERO strain my my back and it hit my legs like crazy.

I’ve been to the physical therapist for over a year to get my back fixed and found out unilateral work take almost almost all the pressure off the back. Works for deadlift variants too if you want to hit your hamstrings.

129

[quote]sam_sneed wrote:

[quote]FattyFat wrote:

And leg presses aggravate my lower back :frowning:

[/quote]

Have ever tried them one leg at a time? I have a couple herniated discs in my lower back and regular leg presses strained and aggravated it. But once I tried them one leg at a time 1 felt ZERO strain my my back and it hit my legs like crazy.

I’ve been to the physical therapist for over a year to get my back fixed and found out unilateral work take almost almost all the pressure off the back. Works for deadlift variants too if you want to hit your hamstrings.[/quote]

Actually, dude, I haven’t. I’ll give it a try and get back to you on how the unilateral variant(s) turned out.

Thanks!

130

[quote]FattyFat wrote:

[quote]XanderBuilt wrote:

[quote]FattyFat wrote:
I recently started to squat on a regular basis. My biggest mistake was that I refrained from doing direct leg work for so long, because my legs had always been very muscular (to the point where they still outshine my upper body). Once I’d started to add back squats, I’ve begun to fill out some more in my upper body. Not so much in the leg department, though. Strange, but still fine in my book. My body is built for squats: I’ve gone from 200 lbs for reps to 418 lbs for reps in a matter of 9 weeks. I suck ass at deadlifts, though. Strength-wise and injury-wise.

And leg presses aggravate my lower back :frowning:

The only exercise I can think of that allows me to stimulate my quads in a proper way are leg extensions as ProX has described. I’m much more interested in getting my posterior chain ON PAR with my quads, though.

Bottom line: back squats and leg extensions are where it’s at for me, leg presses are a no-go. Unfortunately, since they provide a perfect setup for sending your mind into your legs and not having to pay much attention to getting the form right while still moving heavy-ass weights.

[/quote]

FF, just wondering when you mentioned your body is built for squats, can you elaborate on that? Purely height related or flexibility or more than that?
What else are you doing for the posterior chain if you are not doing/prefer not to do deadlifts? (deadlift variations, leg curls etc)?

Thanks.[/quote]

Short answer:
-I’m rather short, 170 cm (that must be something about 5’6, I guess)
-bad flexibility, leg curls took care of it
-my legs have always been very big without any direct training (see my T-Cell Alpha thread: I’m not exaggerating)
-I love deadlifts, but I’m going to keep away from them (read long answer for the reasons why)

Long answer:
I’m no expert at biomechanics, but let me put it this way:
all it took me to get ready for squatting away 3x a week was to do 3 months of leg curling to start fixing my posterior chain issues. Since then, I have had no problems back squatting deeply, staying in the hole and getting out of it, all the while keeping my knees behind my toes (from a sideways perspective). Actually: the higher the load on my back, the easier it is to get into and out of the hole (though the getting out part is more gruesome, lol). And my legs can take a helluva beating.
The first time I took up back squats on a regular basis was as part of a tabata protocol: I progressed pretty fast. Right now, on a good day I can take 300 lbs and do at least 30 consecutive reps (although with a lot of breathing in between the last ~ 5 reps). Besides, the back squat is the one exercise I can train quite frequently using heavy loads without injuring myself. All this with a herniated disc.
Hence I guesstimate that I’m built for back squats.

Take the deadlift, for contrasting purposes: it took only 2 176 lbs frame dumbbells to herniate a disc. And only 308 lbs to tear my SC joint.

[/quote]

Thanks for taking the time to patiently reply FF. I am always keen to know what characteristics makes one lifter more pre-dispositioned to one lift versus another and what the alternatives are. I’m still working on my maxes for each lift but when I have the strength I want I need to consider what options are available to grow muscle. It’s a never-ending battle.

131

[quote]dnlcdstn wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]GluteusGigantis wrote:
For people with frontsquat form issues I like to get them to do 2 things prior to starting.

  1. Do an overhead squat (bar only) to learn what the trunk posture should feel like.
  2. Do a front squat without holding the bar (magic eh!)…arms straight out in front, bar in the proper position (you’ll find it quick).

Do a few of each of those and wham bam you’re away.[/quote]

That’s good advice.

Also, learn to front squat without holding on to the bar at all, the bar simply rests behind your delts and against your neck, with your arms straight out in front of you, like this:

This is great for reinforcing form prompts, along with boosting confidence. [/quote]

Wow. That’s impressive to say the least. How many guys on this forum can match that? Question HFM: how tall are you and how much do you weigh? Also, I’ve seen your bb row videos and just deadlifting the weigh up is impressive itself. However, your rom is very limited. Do you feel that the weight and intensity trump rom? It certainly has worked for you.[/quote]

I’m 5’7"-5’8" (depends on before or after squats lol), 200 lbs, +/- a few lbs at any given time. And it depends…for upper back, I like a good combo of everything. Super heavy shrugs and devil rows on some days, other times traditional BB Rows with moderate weight and not too much body english, other times cable rows with super focus on contraction and perfect form…but AS A RULE OF THUMB, I like to hit back thickness with heavy weight and some body english, and back width with lighter weights, and a greater focus on form. By body english I DON’T mean compromising spinal safety, I mean leg drive and hip snap. Big difference, and a lot of people don’t understand that.

132

[quote]FattyFat wrote:

[quote]sam_sneed wrote:

[quote]FattyFat wrote:

And leg presses aggravate my lower back :frowning:

[/quote]

Have ever tried them one leg at a time? I have a couple herniated discs in my lower back and regular leg presses strained and aggravated it. But once I tried them one leg at a time 1 felt ZERO strain my my back and it hit my legs like crazy.

I’ve been to the physical therapist for over a year to get my back fixed and found out unilateral work take almost almost all the pressure off the back. Works for deadlift variants too if you want to hit your hamstrings.[/quote]

Actually, dude, I haven’t. I’ll give it a try and get back to you on how the unilateral variant(s) turned out.

Thanks!
[/quote]
And if it also strains the lower back, you could put a towel under there for some lumbar support. =)

133

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]actionboy wrote:
saying that something is general knowledge still isn’t proving shit. you D-bag.[/quote]

http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?q=shear+force+knee+leg+extension&hl=en&btnG=Search&as_sdt=2001&as_sdtp=on

hopefully that link works, any of those should give you soem nice reading - main point to take away is the lack of hamstring co-contraction which supports the knee.

[/quote]
Wow, did you at least read the abstract of any of these articles? AT ALL?[/quote]

  1. During the squat, the maximal compressive force was 6139 �??�?�± 1708 N, occurring at 91�??�?�° of knee flexion; whereas the maximal compressive force for the knee extension exercise was 4598 �??�?�± 2546 N (at 90�??�?�° knee flexion). for those of you who tried to bite my head off there is not a lot of difference in force production here, BUT the point i was making is there is no support from the hamstrings to stop anterior translation of the tibia)*

  2. An anterior shear force (anterior cruciate ligament stress) was noted during open kinetic chain knee extension from 40�??�?�° to full extension

  3. EMG data indicated greater hamstring and quadriceps muscle co-contraction during the squat compared with the other two exercises.

And thats just from one article, come on seriously - all you sheep stop following professor X - dont be like every other fuck wit in the gym industry and have your own, informed opinion.

In any case, i never said i was against doing leg extensions (something many of you haven’t realised yet, hence my confusion at being abused)

Also, don’t think im trying to come across as a know-all, Im not american so id gladly be proved wrong…
[/quote]

Basically, you’re trying to say that the leg extension is inherently bad because the hamstrings can’t pull the tibia backward, leaving the ACL to support the (mild) load of the shifting tibia… but the study you linked reports peak acl shear was 250n during the leg extension in the test group, which is WELL within safe ranges.

Fortunately, things really aren’t that complicated… everyone on these boards that has actually been in the gym knows that the leg extension builds quads and is perfectly safe for the vast majority of gym rats given that the range of motion is somewhat limited, the loads are light-moderate for high volume, and the tempo is slow. All of these strategies will reduce shear.

People that train regularly can figure these things out intuitively without needing to pick up a journal… go figure.

134

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]gregron wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
Don’t tell me what i was implying, because you’re an idiot - I said for a sporting person(ie footballer)…[/quote]

You don’t have a more informed opinion. You are in a bodybuilding forum giving advice out of context to football players who didn’t ask for it. If that makes sense to you, how am I the idiot?

…None of that matters, however, since the op did not state he is a football player and didn’t ask for that advice.[/quote]

Hey X he said “footballer” which is euro for soccer. He’s not even talking about real football lol

but seriously… Who even says “for a sporting person?” lol[/quote]

Well shit, doesn’t that make leg extensions COMPLETELY FUNCTIONAL for a soccer player? What movement could mimic a kick better?

The term “functional” is bullshit to begin with.[/quote]

Would it make more sense if you said ‘sport specific’ instead of ‘functional’? Because that is what it is. How many strongmen do you see doing tons of leg extensions? While I agree that if it adds muscle, it’s not useless, but since you can’t do every exercise known to man while training specifically for something, then prioritizing comes into play. If it isn’t a priority, then it sure as hell isn’t as ‘functional’.

Even golfers do ‘functional’ exercises to improve their power on their swing.

135

yeah sports specific is probably a better term but it doesn’t really matter because that was a bit off topic - it was more a passing comment about the fact there are equally as effective ways to bring up the quads if he was worried about his knees.

And remember I agreed and wrote “leg ext are good for bringing up the quads” - its just that, imo, they do have a different, unsupported pressure on the knee joint and if you’re getting pain or worried well then they probably aren’t very good for you… the fact some people have said they get excruciating pain and still do them was a little bit concerning to me…but then again, fill your boots.

136

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
yeah sports specific is probably a better term but it doesn’t really matter because that was a bit off topic - it was more a passing comment about the fact there are equally as effective ways to bring up the quads if he was worried about his knees.

And remember I agreed and wrote “leg ext are good for bringing up the quads” - its just that, imo, they do have a different, unsupported pressure on the knee joint and if you’re getting pain or worried well then they probably aren’t very good for you… the fact some people have said they get excruciating pain and still do them was a little bit concerning to me…but then again, fill your boots.[/quote]

Agreed, anyone who is doing them with pain just for the sake of doing them is stupid. But there is no reason to avoid them if you want to bring up your quads and they don’t cause pain. Tons of newbs just love to jump on some “athletic authority” who wrote an article saying leg extensions are the devil, and then go on to bodybuilding forums and call out bodybuilders.

137

@Sam
Worked wonders. Thanks, pal.

@Tatsu
Yeah, yeah, I’m not there, yet :wink:
Used to do the towel trick on longer drives, though, until my woman bought me a lumbar cushion support pillow.

138

[quote]FattyFat wrote:
@Sam
Worked wonders. Thanks, pal.

[/quote]

No problem, good to hear it worked out for you.

139

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]hurg53 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I use a squat machine. i don’t do barbell squats. I also don’t deadlift. You have to find what works for you…and by that I mean actually finding what works and not avoiding movements just because you aren’t good at them or are lazy.

If my back was’t growing I would probably try deadlifts. If my legs were making no progress, I would probably add squats back in.[/quote]

lol u must not like doing manly exercises. whats the point in looking big if ur not strong, False Advertising. tmuscle u better not delete this post i swear to god[/quote]

?? Who said I’m not strong? That squat machine is done with 11 plates on each side for my last set.

I would LOVE to see someone weak move that shit.

What bullshit has gotten into some of your heads that you think not doing a deadlift means you don’t train heavy?

Who the hell builds a big back without it being strong?[/quote]

Professor X, what do you reckon you could deadlift if you just went in one day and decided to pick up a heavy barbell? What have you done in the past?

Personally, I’m going to wait till I get strong before I switch to bodybuilding and start in on the leg extensions and leg presses but reading this thread makes me want to start now and build some serious quads

140

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]ajweins wrote:
Interesting. I am getting my doctorate in physical therapy and we use leg extensions all the time in the clinic. We are about as “functional” of a group as it gets since the sole purpose of our job is to help people regain function.

Leg extensions help increase blood flow leading to increased capillary density. The also aid in muscle recruitment for our patients.

So apparently, leg extensions are great for people with injuries and recovery function. They are also great for bodybuilders. But yet they are “waste of time” for athletes…I don’t buy it. [/quote]

Ill say it again, I never said they were BAD just that if he’s worried about his knees, DONT FUCKING DO IT!

Also, are you saying youd prescribe leg extensions for recovery? come on mate… and way to throw on a blanket term like injuries…ACL injury? youd wack them on the leg ext machine? NICE ONE

[/quote]
Leg extensions are fine for post surgery(ACL reconstruction) recovery after about 4 months. It is even “prescribed” by some doctors.