GOMAD & Inflammation of the Liver?!

Hello everybody,
I ve been doing GOMAD for 3 Weeks now.
last week I did a routinely blood check. (i have to get my blood checked every month, for reasons Im not going to epxlain here)
the doc called earlier this day with the resuslts.
it seems like I have a liver inflammation.
the funny part is that my triglyceride data last month was actually fine…
Now while on GOMAD my liver triglycerides have increased by almost 100!

Has anybody made similar experiences?
Im not on any meds right now and havent been for more than 2 years.

Would be thankful for any advice

P.S.:
GOMAD works like a charm for me. I went from 173 to 185 in 22 days and can still see abs.

[quote]Quiet Warrior wrote:
Hello everybody,
I ve been doing GOMAD for 3 Weeks now.
last week I did a routinely blood check. (i have to get my blood checked every month, for reasons Im not going to epxlain here)
the doc called earlier this day with the resuslts.
it seems like I have a liver inflammation.
the funny part is that my triglyceride data last month was actually fine…
Now while on GOMAD my liver triglycerides have increased by almost 100!

Has anybody made similar experiences?
Im not on any meds right now and havent been for more than 2 years.

Would be thankful for any advice

P.S.:
GOMAD works like a charm for me. I went from 173 to 185 in 22 days and can still see abs.[/quote]

Charm for what, getting fat? Eat a balanced diet instead of following a fad.

I’m pretty sure it was Eyedoc who posted this in another thread.

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

I’m pretty sure it was Eyedoc who posted this in another thread.

[/quote]
I was injured for a long time and started Thib’s Layer System after 3 months of SS fallback together with GOMAD. 5 days a week of lifting + Milk could apparently take their toll on my liver function.

Thank you Dr. Pangloss, I feel a lot better now knowing that it could be the Doc’s fault!
Seriously my day seems a little bit brighter :slight_smile:

[quote]Quiet Warrior wrote:

Now while on GOMAD my liver triglycerides have increased by almost 100!

[/quote]

that’s simply because of the tons of sugar you are getting in with your gallon of milk

Mat’

This was a fasted test, yes? For how long did you fast and how close was your last workout to the blood draw? What were your exact values? The two docs (Pangloss and eye) are correct in pointing out the confounding effects of exercise on liver enzymes, so instead I’ll just take a quick stab at clearing up some confusion I think you might be having:

Please note that triglyceride (aka, triacylglycerol or TG) is just a name for three fatty acids attached to a glycerol molecule via a certain kind of bond (ester)… it’s a fancy sounding name for the type of lipid that constitutes ~95% of our dietary fat intake.

When we eat fat, it gets digested by pancreatic enzymes that break the ester bonds to release the fatty acids from the glycerol, which allows for their movement into enterocytes (intestinal cells that absorb shit), where they combine with apoproteins to form some of the lipoproteins we measure with lipid panels. It is primarily transported to tissues in two forms: chylomicrons (which transport the fat we eat) and VLDL (which transports the fat we make along with whatever is left over after the chylomicrons make their way back to the liver, forming LDL cholesterol in the process). The relationship and interaction between the two in cases of both true and false-positive instances of hypertriglyceridemia (high blood TG) is a little funky (i.e., more complicated than I;m really giving it credit for here), but I can provide some stuff if you’d like.

So, what’s causing it is really up for grabs. What kind of milk are you drinking? Whole?

It’s pretty well-established that elevated plasma TG from diets higher in fat is characterized by increased production of VLDL. As well, perhaps less common but likely applicable in your case, it may also be the result of increased carb intake, a phenomenon known as “carbohydrate-induced hypertriglyceridemia.”

Remember that carbohydrates are converted to TG in the liver and fat cells by a process known as “de novo lipogenesis” (DNL). When ingested, dietary carbs are preferentially burned for energy at the expense of fat and are only converted to TG once the body is done burning its fill and stocking up on glycogen (as a side note, this here is where butts start to get hurt in high carb vs. high fat dietary discussions). What most seem to not understand is that DNL is NOT common in humans under normal circumstances (most cases of hypertriglyceridemia are the result of fat or alcohol intake), but, in situations where calories are eaten above maintenance, DNL gets upregulated quite readily.

So, your TGs are elevated pretty much because you are eating a crap ton above maintenance and your body is busy making and transporting fat (even though you can still see your abs).

Try reading up on the relationship between fish oil and TG (I’d tell ya myself but this post is getting long so I’ll just answer any questions you might have). Do yourself a favor and start supplementing with some if you are not already doing so. Your rapid weight gain and TG levels indicate you are putting on a fair bit of fat (which increases TG), so prepare to adjust your diet accordingly once the mirror starts looking sloppy. Alcohol affects TG, as well (though unless you’ve been binge drinking the past few weeks this isn’t a likely culprit), and simpler carbs (like what makes up the vast majority of milk carbs) are believed to affect TG levels more than the complex types.

[quote]anonym wrote:
This was a fasted test, yes? For how long did you fast and how close was your last workout to the blood draw? [/quote]

First of all thank you for that huge post and taking yourself the time to answer my questions.

My last workout was 16 hours ago before I got tested and no, it was not a fasted test. That’s what i tried to tell the doc but he basically said the stuff Ive been doing and eating does not influence the test THAT much. To double check that I have to get tested next week a again, this time fasted.
I even had a liter of milk and a Whey shake prior to getting my blood checked.

[quote]
What were your exact values? The two docs (Pangloss and eye) are correct in pointing out the confounding effects of exercise on liver enzymes, so instead I’ll just take a quick stab at clearing up some confusion I think you might be having: [/quote]

Unfortunately I do not have the exact values. it was just a call with the diagnosis.
Will try to get them if you want to.

[quote]
Please note that triglyceride (aka, triacylglycerol or TG) is just a name for three fatty acids attached to a glycerol molecule via a certain kind of bond (ester)… it’s a fancy sounding name for the type of lipid that constitutes ~95% of our dietary fat intake.

When we eat fat, it gets digested by pancreatic enzymes that break the ester bonds to release the fatty acids from the glycerol, which allows for their movement into enterocytes (intestinal cells that absorb shit), where they combine with apoproteins to form some of the lipoproteins we measure with lipid panels. It is primarily transported to tissues in two forms: chylomicrons (which transport the fat we eat) and VLDL (which transports the fat we make along with whatever is left over after the chylomicrons make their way back to the liver, forming LDL cholesterol in the process). The relationship and interaction between the two in cases of both true and false-positive instances of hypertriglyceridemia (high blood TG) is a little funky (i.e., more complicated than I;m really giving it credit for here), but I can provide some stuff if you’d like. [/quote]

Man, thank you for that explanaition. Truly, amazing. Starting to get it know.

[quote]
So, what’s causing it is really up for grabs. What kind of milk are you drinking? Whole? [quote]
3.8%, whole milk sometimes 5% milk.

[quote]
So, your TGs are elevated pretty much because you are eating a crap ton above maintenance and your body is busy making and transporting fat (even though you can still see your abs).
Try reading up on the relationship between fish oil and TG (I’d tell ya myself but this post is getting long so I’ll just answer any questions you might have). Do yourself a favor and start supplementing with some if you are not already doing so. Your rapid weight gain and TG levels indicate you are putting on a fair bit of fat (which increases TG), so prepare to adjust your diet accordingly once the mirror starts looking sloppy. [/quote]
How much of that weight might be muscle?
As soon as I leave my flat this morning Im going to go buy some fish oil. What dosages should I take?

[quote]
Alcohol affects TG, as well (though unless you’ve been binge drinking the past few weeks this isn’t a likely culprit), and simpler carbs (like what makes up the vast majority of milk carbs) are believed to affect TG levels more than the complex types. [/quote]

I dont drink at all. But thanks for the information you are putting out there.
Are you a doctor yourself or just very well informed? (or both? lol)

@Anonym Once again clearing up the shit,great post and info buddy.

No worries man, just glad you made it through the whole thing without falling asleep.

I’ve read one study that indicated high carb diets affected liver panel results to a greater extent than caloric load, but typically that sorta thing is influenced by medications and herbal supplements more than food. Given that you exercised shortly (more or less) before, that seems to be the much more likely culprit. Try not to exercise the day or two before the test to see what happens to the liver function panel; given how hard/often you train, it might not be able to hit “optimal” within that time period, but even a sharp downward trend would help suggest no dire pathological process is at play. Try to avoid acetaminophen (Tylenol) before, too.

As far as TG levels are concerned: the reason why many feel it is important to fast before testing is because TG are the predominant fat in the diet. So, obviously, eating a meal containing fat shortly before the test will show the transient, largely chylomicron-mediated elevation in TG that, when interpreted under fasting guidelines (the most routinely utilized kind), indicates the need for treatment.

As far as the rest of the lipid panel is concerned: most laboratories do not currently test for LDL (specifically, LDL cholesterol; LDL-C) directly; rather, they calculate it from TG using an equation called the Friedewald formula (i.e., Total Cholesterol (TC) - HDL - VLDL = LDL). So, anything that affects the left side of the equation will be seen on the right side. This is important to remember because labs that use this equation ALSO do not even directly calculate VLDL, either, but instead usually obtain it by dividing the measured TG level by 5. The logic behind this is that, in fasting conditions, most all chylomicrons (which carry the fat you’ve eaten) are out of the bloodstream, so that virtually all the TG detected will be from VLDL (though incidentally, even in the non-fasted state VLDL still outpaces chylomicrons about 10-fold or so). The reason why they choose to divide by 5 is because normal VLDL particles are considered to have about 5 times more TG than cholesterol.

So, the Friedwald formula “more correctly” can be shown as: TC - HDL - TG/5 = LD (I should be saying HDL-C, LDL-C, etc, so just remember we’re discussing the cholesterol portion here)

Note that this method has been observed to become increasingly prone to error when TG levels start to exceed 200 mg/dl, or so (the cutoff point for hypertriglyceridemia)… another reason why fasting is important. This is due to the way most assays are designed to detect TG: the sample TG is broken down (typically with a lipase enzyme but alkaline conditions may be used) into the glycerol molecule and the three fatty acids. The glycerol is then oxidized through a few steps to produce hydrogen peroxide as a byproduct, which is then commonly exposed to a reagent which induces either a color change in the sample or causes it to fluoresce at a certain wavelength. Probes may also be used for similar effect.

These assays are designed to be linear (a certain color/fluorescence intensity = a certain TG level), but obviously this can only proceed to a certain point before TG concentrations reach a point where the reaction kinetics or the instrument’s ability to accurately determine the change is compromised (or both). This is one reason why you might get a result that simply says “above range” or whatever (we see this with steroid users who check their T levels quite often)… the machine’s not lazy, it just can’t do it.

Again, another reason why fasting is advised. Normally, the sample can simply be diluted and rerun, with the adjustment taken into consideration for determining the final value, but I don’t work in that kind of lab so I don’t know how common it is. This is probably routinely performed for non-fasting tests, where above-range values are expected.

Now, labs CAN directly measure LDL-C/VLDL-C, but it is not hugely common because a) the Friedwald equation works fairly well under proper conditions in most individuals and b) using the Friedwald equation is faster and, most importantly, CHEAPER!

But, there is some evidence that suggests non-fasting conditions are just as good as fasting ones for predicting the risk of cardiovascular disease, provided the proper things are looked at. There is a bit of research emerging that indicated total cholesterol and “non-HDL” particles (LDL, VLDL) are more accurate predictors when measured in a fasted state (using the current protocols), whereas HDL, the TC:HDL ratio and TG seem to work quite well non-fasted for predicting CVD risk.

That last part is because HDL isn’t really acutely impacted by diet and non-fasted TG show how what our bodies are exposed to over the course of the entire day (fasting blood lipids are an uncommon, largely artificial thing in most societies – great for standardizing tests, but a poor reflection of what our bodies routinely have to deal with). Note, though, that “non-fasting” does NOT equal “postprandial” (after meals)… so while you can theoretically get a decent assessment without fasting 12+ hours, remember that TG content rises steadily after meals and tends to peak around 4 - 5 hours and is dependent upon the amount you’ve eaten as well as what you’ve eaten.

Another thing I might as well mention is that persistently elevated postprandial TG levels STRONGLY influence atherosclerotic progression and CVD (probably by promoting the formation of small dense LDL particles which can easily infiltrate vascular tissue; a +1 for non-fasted testing), and that higher carbohydrate diets, while causing higher TG values in the fasted stated, actually have lower postprandial TG measurements than fatty meals (because it gets burned/stored right off the bat rather than getting converted to fat and sent otu). Also consider that using non-fasted TG measurements is a fairly new practice; most information available on assessing risk is based around results obtained from fasting conditions.

So… basically it’s all VERY complicated stuff that a whole lotta people much smarter than I am are STILL tryign to figure out.

No idea how much muscle you’ve put on. If you can still see your abs, you obviously did something right, but eating a caloric surplus really ramps up VLDL production via DNL of carbs and, combined with the fat content of the milk, will increase TG.

For fish oil intake: this really depends on what your TG was at. Anywhere from 1 - 4 grams of EPA and DHA (not just “fish oil”) daily can be used to slash TG levels anywhere from 20 - 50%. It really is GREAT stuff for that. Note that while fish oil is also touted to reduce TC levels, it has been seen to do so by modulating HDL-C downwards with little, if any, of a similar effect on LDL. It’s only a small amount, however, and the reason why it is so highly recommended for out of whack lipids is because the benefits it confers on TG levels demolish any slight alterations in HDL.

THey also significantly reduce postprandial lipemia (fat in blood after meals), an effect probably resulting from their ability to reduce VLDL production (which ties into the way in which they reduce TG). VLDL and chylomicrons compete against each other for receptors on tissues for uptake; by decreasing the amount of VLDL our liver produces, the chylomicrons are able to swarm the receptors and clear out post-meal lipids quicker.

Not a doctor by any stretch, and I could only consider myself “kinda-sorta informed” at best. Most of the stuff in my first post, while sound super fancy, is covered in much greater detail in any decent undergraduate nutrition/A&P course. The crap in my second post about how lipid panels are performed is probably lesser known, but hardly esoteric as it’s another byproduct of my education (this time at the graduate level). The nutrition stuff I just like to read about.

So, basically, I can’t answer 99% of the questions people post around here, but the ones I CAN, I try to do as well as possible while leaving no stone unturned.

Oh, and in case I forgot to mention it in the first post: no problem, man. Happy to help.

Let us know how things turn out.

[quote]jppage wrote:
@Anonym Once again clearing up the shit,great post and info buddy.[/quote]

Thanks, man.

Holy sh*t anonym, YOU’RE THE MAN!
These posts are gold!
Thank you so much, I will definitely post again as soon as I get the results.

Great posts anonym!

Hello,

Drinking so much milk is probably working for you but you have to know it is probably not that healthy.

That being known, it happened 2 times to me to get bad liver results (TG and liver enzymes) on blood tests. I had a lot of exams (thanks social security in France :wink: ) to confirm that I don’t have any bad thing like cirrhosis, hepatitis, or cancer.

The only common point between the 2 times is that I was doing heavy strength routines. At least, heavy for me. Doc recommanded to rest more between workouts, and to exercise lighter. I now take more rest and don’t go to the gym if I feel tired.

[quote]kakno wrote:
Great posts anonym! [/quote]

Thanks!

[quote]anonym wrote:
The two docs (Pangloss and eye) are correct in pointing out the confounding effects of exercise on liver enzymes, so instead I’ll just take a quick stab at clearing up some confusion I think you might be having:
[/quote]

I’d like to point out that I’m not a Doctor, just a well-informed layman with an unfortunate username. I do believe eyedoc is an MD, though.

And kudos, Anonym, for more great posts.

okay,so after 5 more testings and one stay in a hospital specialised on liver diseases I now know 2 things for sure:

1.) My doctor is a moron.
That’s actually what they said at the hospital to which I had to drive 150km just to find out that I am perfectly fine.
Out of the 5 tests I had to do before the major health check, 3 came back clear (fasted) and 2 did not (not fasted). Does anybody else see a pattern here?
3 weeks ago the doctor told me that all the protein I am eating is actually causing massive damage in my liver and that I should eat 40g per day MAXIMUM. He also insisted that I should go on with the testing allthough (!) the experts told me I am perfectly fine.
Kiss my a** I will never ever go back to this idiot.

2.) GOMAD and milk as a whole work well for skinny ectomorph guys. (like me)
I have been drinking between 2-6 liters per day (fluid nutrition goes in more easily) and am a solid 178lbs now. 6 weeks ago i started adjusting my macros with the help of Coach thibaudeau’s articles. (thank you coach!)and I would even suggest that I am more defined now than before as I am capable of seeing some striations on my obliques muscles. That was not possible before.
I am very happy with my gains so far and would like to thank everybody who contributed to this thread, especialy anonym who brought some scientific light into the wrong claims of this doctor.
I will try to maximize my gains by working my ass off and making my first 12 months of training as productive as possible.

Have a nice day everybody and sorry for the late response

There’s a lot of idiocy in medicine, and it seems as though you came across a prime example in your ex-doc. Congratulations on being proactive and getting a better reading on your situation. Good luck!

[quote]Quiet Warrior wrote:
3 weeks ago the doctor told me that all the protein I am eating is actually causing massive damage in my liver and that I should eat 40g per day MAXIMUM. He also insisted that I should go on with the testing allthough (!) the experts told me I am perfectly fine.
Kiss my a** I will never ever go back to this idiot.
[/quote]
Doctors are people, they are bias and push there own agendas.

Does he make money if you continue testing?

Although the Hippocratic Oath says, “do no harm”, I think most have no problem fleecing their flock.

[quote]Quiet Warrior wrote:
2.) GOMAD and milk as a whole work well for skinny ectomorph guys. (like me)
I have been drinking between 2-6 liters per day (fluid nutrition goes in more easily) and am a solid 178lbs now. 6 weeks ago i started adjusting my macros with the help of Coach thibaudeau’s articles. (thank you coach!)and I would even suggest that I am more defined now than before as I am capable of seeing some striations on my obliques muscles. That was not possible before.
I am very happy with my gains so far
[/quote]

I agree.

What does the rest of your diet look like, food-wise (and macro-wise)?