[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
I have never used a GHR before, but just looking at the design, it looks to me like knee flexion strenth would still easily be the limiting factor in the lift and that extension of the hip would not be taxed to any great degree.
Am I missing something here?[/quote]
Not really. Except for the static strenght involved in the other muscle groups.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
JUStrength wrote:
Sigh… This could have been a good thread.
Posterior chain strength = GHR (athletic populations/strength sports)
Hypertrophy of the hamstring = Leg Curl (bodybuilders)
Are there times I have athletes do leg curls, yes, but there is a reason the leg curl(singular) looks brand new and the GHR’s(plural)look like they have been through a war.
It’s funny… I was having a lot of hamstring trouble til I started doing leg curls again. I totally ignored the whole knee flexion aspect and only worked on hip extension and it caused a lot of trouble.[/quote]
What type of hamstring trouble if you don’t mind me asking?
I think you will find, most power lifters still leg curl. Just because you read some article saying GHRs are the best, dont mean shit. Everyone haves a different genetic make-up, sizes of limbs etc. All depends on what sport you play aswell. My personal opinion is that it goes RDLS, leg curls and then GHRs. But that is my opinion.
[quote]Typhoon wrote:
Hanley wrote:
JUStrength wrote:
Sigh… This could have been a good thread.
Posterior chain strength = GHR (athletic populations/strength sports)
Hypertrophy of the hamstring = Leg Curl (bodybuilders)
Are there times I have athletes do leg curls, yes, but there is a reason the leg curl(singular) looks brand new and the GHR’s(plural)look like they have been through a war.
It’s funny… I was having a lot of hamstring trouble til I started doing leg curls again. I totally ignored the whole knee flexion aspect and only worked on hip extension and it caused a lot of trouble.
What type of hamstring trouble if you don’t mind me asking?
[/quote]
Wide stance squats and sumo pulls would make them go pop down at my knees!!
even the guys at westside do alot of band leg curls.
My GHR experiences…
I think the GHR is best performed when focusing on a slow slow slow eccentric and powerful fast “assisted” concentric. Hammies, being one of the most fast-twitch dominated muscle groups, response very well to this type of eccentric training.
You may have to shorten the resistance arm of the exercise by simply tucking your butt a bit so you don’t quite have a straight line from your knee to your shoulder, but more of a shallow triangle. You can also shorten the resistance arm by keeping your arms toward your hips instead of outward by your shoulders or above your head. Likewise, if you are a beast you’d want to extend the resistance arm as much as possible so you’ll want to extend you arms above your head. If you can do reps of GHRs with a straight knee-to-shoulder and your arms extended above your head you are a beast.
The problem with leg curls is that the effectiveness usually depends on the machine (seated vs prone) and it can be easy to cheat thus reducing tension on the hammies.
I don’t understand why the GHR or the leg curl are useful exercises for functional strength. They both actively train knee flexion, which is something that is never actively done in any athletic movement that I know of. I would think the eccentric portion of the GHR or the leg curl would train the deceleration function of the hamstrings, but don’t you get that with any exercise that trains your quadriceps?
How is a leg curl or a GHR going to improve your sprinting ability, squat, deadlift, clean, etc.?
The GHR is more than just knee flexion. That’s only half of what it’s doing. Leg curls are pretty much useless.
GHR is a staple for me, my squat (in gear) has gone from 400 to 600 in a year and a half. GHRs are done either before/after (or both) the main movement, whether it be a squat or dl variant. When I started doing them, I couldn’t complete a full rep, now I have the back hiked up 10 inches and doing sets of 10 with a light band. If you think the exercise is easy, make it harder, if it’s easy with body weight hold weight to your chest or behind your head. Or you can add chains or bands, if those become too easy, combine different types of resistance. I think the benefits really come in when you can hike that back up because it teaches the body to increase speed throughout the movement.
I haven’t done leg curls in a machine in years, but when I was doing them I had already worked up to entire stack in the gym I was at. I can see some use in the band curls, some of our guys use them religiously. Some guys at westside do do band curls, but every time I’ve been there, for every 1 guy that’s doing band curls, you have 5-6 guys doing GHR.
[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:
The GHR is more than just knee flexion. That’s only half of what it’s doing. Leg curls are pretty much useless.[/quote]
what’s the other half doing?
it depends on how you do the ghr and what kind of ghr you are doing (natural vs bench), but all are primarily knee flexion, closed chain.
leg curls aren’t useless… that’s like saying bicep curls or tricep extensions are useless… or db front / lateral raises are useless… or * is useless.
so amazingzZzZz 
:> 
:F
depends what your goals are, depends on what your weaknesses are, what injuries you have, what your training cycle looks like, etc…depends. as a primary accessory movement though I go with GHR. mostly because leg curls are easy. they still have their place though.
[quote]adarqui wrote:
[quote]Wild_Iron_Gym wrote:
The GHR is more than just knee flexion. That’s only half of what it’s doing. Leg curls are pretty much useless.[/quote]
what’s the other half doing?
it depends on how you do the ghr and what kind of ghr you are doing (natural vs bench), but all are primarily knee flexion, closed chain.
leg curls aren’t useless… that’s like saying bicep curls or tricep extensions are useless… or db front / lateral raises are useless… or * is useless.[/quote]
Have you ever used a GHR?
That or from Fred Hatfield:
“Remember that the GH raise is indeed a pure hip extension exercise! But it adds the knee flexion, important to sprinters during the “catch” phase of the sprint movement. As such, I regard it as superior to stiff legged deadlifts or regular deadlifts. These two exercises should be reserved for periods of your training where non-specific strength training is employed. The GH raise is very specific, mimicing the sprinting action quite closely. Therefore, it is generally reserved for periods in your cycle wherein you are actually performing your sprint.”
http://drsquat.com/content/main/training-and-nutrition/ghr-sprinters
I still don’t see how the GHR is training hip extension. It doesn’t look like the hip angle changes very much at all. At the top it looks like there is a very small amount of hip extension, but it doesn’t seem like it would be anywhere near enough to cause a strength adaption. All it really looks like is he is squeezing his glutes at the top.
I hear over and over again how leg curls train knee flexion and therefore the strength gained has little applicable strength in an athletic or “functional” way. So how is a GHR any different than a leg curl (as in why would you use it in a training program), aside from its more difficult? In what situation would you want to actively train knee flexion, assuming you’re doing a powerlifting program or a strength and conditioning training program for an athlete? Isn’t knee flexion going to be inadvertently trained when doing motions that involve knee extension since it resists motion and helps stabilize the knee? If you’re doing GHRs or leg curls are you trying to improve knee stability? How is it going to improve your squat or deadlift or improve your athletic ability?
On a side note, I tried these the other day on the GHR at my gym and I get this awful tight feeling in the back of my legs, like the exercise is going to tear my hamstring tendons in two. The next day they felt as if they were strained. My calves had a similar feeling too. I didn’t assume I would be good at them not really ever doing them (mostly just squat and deadlift right now) but somehow I don’t feel it’s normal that every time I do them it feels like my hamstring tendons are going to be torn right off the bone.
[quote]wookieeassassin wrote:
I still don’t see how the GHR is training hip extension. It doesn’t look like the hip angle changes very much at all. At the top it looks like there is a very small amount of hip extension, but it doesn’t seem like it would be anywhere near enough to cause a strength adaption. All it really looks like is he is squeezing his glutes at the top.
I hear over and over again how leg curls train knee flexion and therefore the strength gained has little applicable strength in an athletic or “functional” way. So how is a GHR any different than a leg curl (as in why would you use it in a training program), aside from its more difficult? In what situation would you want to actively train knee flexion, assuming you’re doing a powerlifting program or a strength and conditioning training program for an athlete? Isn’t knee flexion going to be inadvertently trained when doing motions that involve knee extension since it resists motion and helps stabilize the knee? If you’re doing GHRs or leg curls are you trying to improve knee stability? How is it going to improve your squat or deadlift or improve your athletic ability?
On a side note, I tried these the other day on the GHR at my gym and I get this awful tight feeling in the back of my legs, like the exercise is going to tear my hamstring tendons in two. The next day they felt as if they were strained. My calves had a similar feeling too. I didn’t assume I would be good at them not really ever doing them (mostly just squat and deadlift right now) but somehow I don’t feel it’s normal that every time I do them it feels like my hamstring tendons are going to be torn right off the bone.[/quote]
A couple of points:
Hip extension is trained isometrically with the GHR. The hamstrings and glutes have to fire to keep the back in line with the thighs. Thus, as others have said, the GHR trains both knee flexion and hip extension.
I think a lot of people are getting too caught up in the knee flexion vs. hip extension. I’m certain the muscle tissue in your hamstrings doesn’t know the difference - it only knows contract vs. relax. I believe the only real differences are neurological and strengthing the tendons/ligaments of the respective joints. This does not mean the distinction is irrelevant, just that knee flexion exercies do have merrit in that they will strengthen the hamstrings for all movements. That being said, a program should include both knee flexion and hip extension exercises IMO.
[quote]wookieeassassin wrote:
I would think the eccentric portion of the GHR or the leg curl would train the deceleration function of the hamstrings, but don’t you get that with any exercise that trains your quadriceps
[/quote]
Would you be able to explain? Can’t get my head around this.
The reason I started doing natural/eccentric GHRs was because I had a recurring hamstring injury and I was totally paranoid about reinjuring the muscle.
Thanks
[quote]adarqui wrote:
for sprinting, i would prefer leg curl over ghr because it is:
peace
edit: lol
“In activities such as running, jumping and skating, for example, the function of the hamstrings is not to flex the knee, but to extend the hip. So to develop functional strength for these activities, you want to do hip extension exercises where your foot is in contact with the ground. This is referred to as a closed-chain exercise. An open-chain is when your foot is not in contact with the ground, such as the leg curl.”
in sprinting the hamstrings do not flex the knee! regurgitate!
ahah.[/quote]
I always appreciate posts like this, because when something says something so stupid and contradictory, I know who to ignore in the future…
They’re underrated if you don’t have one, and overrated if you do. I can do sets of twenty now with a forty pounds x vest on. I hardly do them anymore, but I’ve had a GHR bench for ten years now.
I think they are underrated in the sense that pushups are underrated - everyone should be able to do a certain number, but that doesnt mean that your training cycle should be based around it. I have not noticed a significant jump in my squat/dead numbers since I started them, but perhaps I still need to get better. I can do sets of 8 w 10 lbs added.
I’ll also add that I’m not a zealot about it. I prefer the ghr, but think the leg curl has useful application if you want to go light, if someone is very weak, or if you just want a change of pace once every few months
[quote]wookieeassassin wrote:
I still don’t see how the GHR is training hip extension. It doesn’t look like the hip angle changes very much at all. At the top it looks like there is a very small amount of hip extension, but it doesn’t seem like it would be anywhere near enough to cause a strength adaption. All it really looks like is he is squeezing his glutes at the top. [/quote]
I cant tell if you’re looking for feedback or just stating your position and daring anyone to disagree, but if you want my thoughts - it’s an isometric contraction. It’s not the be-all end-all of hip ext training, but it’s there.
I think being more difficult is a perfectly valid reason, but beyond that, you’re having to stabilize a variety of other muscles that you dont have to stabilize w a leg curl - abs, glutes, low back, etc, all have to be held rigid, whereas with a leg curl they dont
Personally, I dont think of the ghr as training knee flexion, i think of it as training my hamstrings in a different way from RDLs or back ext. The hamstrings wont be trained in any serious way in “any” motion involving knee extension. The hamstring will act to decelerate the knee’s extension towards the end of the range of motion, but the training effect is negligible.
Are you sure that what you’re feeling isn’t simply DOMS?