Getting Big: What Works

Training Bodybuilding
41

[quote]Professor X wrote:
OneMoreRep wrote:
However, what I am saying is that just because someone is “big” (what definition you use for that is variable) does not mean in and of itself that he is a credible source.

That would make them an incredible source.

We agree.[/quote]

Yes, being “big” muscular or what have you is a necessary condition for someone to be credible. I think everyone would have a difficult time listening to the advice of a proverbial “pencil neck” but that alone is not sufficient. The second requirement for me to believe what someone is saying is that what they say makes sense, i.e. it has scientific rationale behind it, if it doesn’t I don’t care who you are. Remember Arnold suggested choosing exercise that expand the rib cage, a physiological impossibility. Of course he had other amazing things to say, but always be discerning.

Second, when choosing things for comparison you can’t compare apples to oranges. Now, pro bodybuilders aren’t that far off but there are things to be careful about when comparing I think I originally said be wary off.

Person A 1) Professional 2) Genetically gifted 3) Drugs
Person B 1) Amateur 2) Genetically average 3)Non drug user

Controlling variables is important and the differences are fairly obvious. This is not to say that person B has nothing to gain from listening to Person A but that there are differences that need to taken into account.

42

[quote]OneMoreRep wrote:
Professor X wrote:
OneMoreRep wrote:
However, what I am saying is that just because someone is “big” (what definition you use for that is variable) does not mean in and of itself that he is a credible source.

That would make them an incredible source.

We agree.

Yes, being “big” muscular or what have you is a necessary condition for someone to be credible. I think everyone would have a difficult time listening to the advice of a proverbial “pencil neck” but that alone is not sufficient. The second requirement for me to believe what someone is saying is that what they say makes sense, i.e. it has scientific rationale behind it, if it doesn’t I don’t care who you are. Remember Arnold suggested choosing exercise that expand the rib cage, a physiological impossibility. Of course he had other amazing things to say, but always be discerning.

Second, when choosing things for comparison you can’t compare apples to oranges. Now, pro bodybuilders aren’t that far off but there are things to be careful about when comparing I think I originally said be wary off.

Person A 1) Professional 2) Genetically gifted 3) Drugs
Person B 1) Amateur 2) Genetically average 3)Non drug user

Controlling variables is important and the differences are fairly obvious. This is not to say that person B has nothing to gain from listening to Person A but that there are differences that need to taken into account.
[/quote]

Excuses are what losers make up to justify sucking.

Seems you love to make excuses.

If I want to be rich, I will take lessons from a rich man. If I want to be a guitar player, I will take lessons from a best guitar player I can afford. To be the best - learn from the best. making excuses for failure won’t put one fucking inch on your thighs. Trust me.

43

[quote]OneMoreRep wrote:
Professor X wrote:
OneMoreRep wrote:
However, what I am saying is that just because someone is “big” (what definition you use for that is variable) does not mean in and of itself that he is a credible source.

That would make them an incredible source.

We agree.

Yes, being “big” muscular or what have you is a necessary condition for someone to be credible. I think everyone would have a difficult time listening to the advice of a proverbial “pencil neck” but that alone is not sufficient. The second requirement for me to believe what someone is saying is that what they say makes sense, i.e. it has scientific rationale behind it, if it doesn’t I don’t care who you are. Remember Arnold suggested choosing exercise that expand the rib cage, a physiological impossibility. Of course he had other amazing things to say, but always be discerning.

Second, when choosing things for comparison you can’t compare apples to oranges. Now, pro bodybuilders aren’t that far off but there are things to be careful about when comparing I think I originally said be wary off.

Person A 1) Professional 2) Genetically gifted 3) Drugs
Person B 1) Amateur 2) Genetically average 3)Non drug user

Controlling variables is important and the differences are fairly obvious. This is not to say that person B has nothing to gain from listening to Person A but that there are differences that need to taken into account.
[/quote]

You’re an idiot…and I mean that in the softest most endearing way possible. While you are comparing and attempting to control variables, I will continue to look to those who have gotten to where I want to get to.

That goes for bodybuilding, my career and even relationships. It will be up to me to keep whatever I hear that works for me and discard what doesn’t. That takes a lot less attempt at sounding like a high school student who just finished 12th grade biology and much more work at seeing what is right in front of you.

44

[quote]Scott M wrote:
OneMoreRep wrote:
consistent change. Almost any program done correctly and intensly will garner results, but done too long you will plateau on even the best program.

Honestly I don’t see this happening in the real world. It seems to be “common knowledge” on internet forums but when you look at the biggest guys in gyms pretty much all of them aren’t switching it up every 4-8 weeks. People hate when I use pro bodybuilders as examples but I’m doing it again because I have a feeling you don’t go to the same gym as me and this is the best way to name commonly known people.

Ronnie Coleman, same basic split since I saw his first DVD
David Henry, same DC split for the past 3 years(huge jump in stage weight)
Johnnie Jackson, same basic power exercises like the above two

For another perspective, Chuck Vogephol(sp?), same Westside training template for a good 15-20 years now and is continuing to set powerlifting records.

Do I have to go on?

I am not seeing these guys do 8 weeks of powerbuilding in one DVD and turn around and do Super Slow or Max-OT or the latest Chad Waterbury program in the next.

There’s a lot of people on this site that “keep their bodies off balance” by changing to the next article’s routine every few weeks but I’m not seeing the physiques to back it up yet. [/quote]

i didnt read your whole post but things like westside and likely what them other guys are doing have variation built into their template. They’re switching lifts on a week to week or month to month basis but not changing the “split” and it works.

45

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Excuses are what losers make up to justify sucking.
[/quote]

this is fucking poetry, where did you hear that?

46

[quote]conwict wrote:
You can’t be Ronnie Coleman, etc, without devoting most of your time to the sport. e.[/quote]

You mean Ronnie Coleman who won the Olympia as a full time police officer?

47

I was going to echo that. Also, it’s not like bodybuilders who use “the same” workout progress 100% linearly…it just isn’t possible.

What’s going on in this thread is more or less a lot of justification and oversimplification. I mean, honestly, no one in their right mind should listen to a pro bodybuilder saying “Buy NO-Xplod” or “Doing a 71 degree two-finger cable curl builds the inner bicep vein”…I mean, a lot of those guys aren’t even willing to take the effort to articulate their own methods for success and they bullshit.

No one “method” should be dismissed wholesale. People have built great physiques training for sprints, training for discus, training for bodybuilding comps, training for sled, training for olympic lifting, HIT, HFT, and training just about any way anyone here can name. It just goes back to what I said about discerning what will work for you. Keep it simple, too. And I maintain that the main reason for any bodybuilder’s success is dedication. You can experience a degree of success somewhat correlated with your dedication, too.

48

[quote]
You’re an idiot…and I mean that in the softest most endearing way possible. While you are comparing and attempting to control variables, I will continue to look to those who have gotten to where I want to get to.[/quote]

Come on, do you talk to people like that at work? Casually, to people you’ve never met?

And honestly we’re all wasting our time on this thread. Someone takes a civil tone, explains what they mean, and you call them an idiot? They’re not wasting any more time than you are, articulating what they feel brings success in the iron game. And frankly you two don’t really differ much in opinion.

49

House is a awesome show, but they need to come out with some new episodes or Im going to kill someone.

Getting big, or bigger, isnt hard to understand but so few actually do it that its ridiculous. With all the people who train for years and turn out average or below I think we can all agree that just simply showing up and lifting isnt going to get anyone anywhere. And that eating “allot” is worthless if the food isn’t making you gain weight.

So basically its just increasing strength at a select few lifts while increasing food periodically to gain weight.

Its not any specific diet or nutrient ration, its not any new advanced German volume, 3 2 4 tempo, rest pause, drop set shit. If you can manage to push your muscles harder than your last workout and eat enough calories to gain weight then chances are you will be gaining muscle.

Do it for a few years and you will grow.

5x5, 10x3 3x8, 10,8,6,4,2 and all that shit will work if your using more weight, shorter rest periods, or more reps every workout or two. And as far as food goes if you only eat enough fast food to gain 2lbs a week, you will only gain 2 lbs a week. So its not like your going to get instantly obese if your diet isnt super clean.

Thats basically it.

50

[quote]conwict wrote:

You’re an idiot…and I mean that in the softest most endearing way possible. While you are comparing and attempting to control variables, I will continue to look to those who have gotten to where I want to get to.

Come on, do you talk to people like that at work? Casually, to people you’ve never met?

And honestly we’re all wasting our time on this thread. Someone takes a civil tone, explains what they mean, and you call them an idiot? They’re not wasting any more time than you are, articulating what they feel brings success in the iron game. And frankly you two don’t really differ much in opinion.[/quote]

Why would I be holding a conversation this in depth with someone I never met? For the conversation to even get to this level in a face to face meeting would require some deeper knowledge about a person. Are you holding conversations like this with complete strangers on subways? I write on this forum like I would speak in a room of people I might play basketball with. So, yes, I would speak the same way in that situation. This is NOT my job. I don’t get paid to be here. Please don’t write something so ridiculous again.

In fact, I’ll go one better. Considering how often one might get challenged on this site, do you honestly think many would argue face to face with someone about many of these issues if that person were much larger than them?

51

Listen Prof. X. I’m not trying to argue with you infact I think I agree with what you are saying for the most part. Correct me if I’m wrong but you are suggesting we model ourselves after those who have gained the success that we are after, I agree. The only point I am trying to make at this point in time is that just because someone is successful does not mean that you should just accept what they say in blind faith. Critically analyze the advice that you ask for or are given. I’m sure from the likes of David Henry or of course Arnold the advice is 90% dead on. However, sometimes its not and like you said you will figure out whats what. My original post about change was infact agreeing with westide that does continue to alter and has different stressors built in. I was just saying don’t do the same thing like exact same thing every time you step in the gym.

52

[quote]OneMoreRep wrote:
The only point I am trying to make at this point in time is that just because someone is successful does not mean that you should just accept what they say in blind faith. [/quote]

The only point I am making is that the only people who seem to be focusing in on “successful people who don’t know what they are doing” happen to be fairly unsuccessful themselves. If I want to be good at what I do, I would listen to those who do the same and are good at it. It isn’t even worth my time worrying about some population of people who became successful by accident who don’t know how they did it. That would become apparent within 10 seconds of speaking with them.

In other words, the main people spreading the “don’t listen to huge bodybuilders because they are clueless” seem to be…sort of on the smaller side. This isn’t even about “pro bodybuilders” since most people will doubtfully even come face to face with one unless they are extremely involved in bodybuilding.

No one has written that you should follow absolutely everything someone else says simply because they are successful. In fact, several times I’ve written that you shouldn’t get all of your information from only one source (that includes this website). However, I am willing to bet that if I walk into the gym, 99% of the time, the 150lbs guy in the corner is NOT who I should be speaking with about how to get my quads to 32".

53

I am willing to bet that if I walk into the gym, 99% of the time, the 150lbs guy in the corner is NOT who I should be speaking with about how to get my quads to 32"

Totally agree. Probably 99.99%. Just to clarify I’m not focusing on “successful people who don’t know what they are doing” Just saying you should analyze the advice you get even from successful people who DO know what they’re doing.

54

[quote]OneMoreRep wrote:
Listen Prof. X. I’m not trying to argue with you infact I think I agree with what you are saying for the most part. Correct me if I’m wrong but you are suggesting we model ourselves after those who have gained the success that we are after, I agree. The only point I am trying to make at this point in time is that just because someone is successful does not mean that you should just accept what they say in blind faith. Critically analyze the advice that you ask for or are given. I’m sure from the likes of David Henry or of course Arnold the advice is 90% dead on. However, sometimes its not and like you said you will figure out whats what. My original post about change was infact agreeing with westide that does continue to alter and has different stressors built in. I was just saying don’t do the same thing like exact same thing every time you step in the gym. [/quote]

so you agree thats basically what he said, learn form the best and take what works for you its that simple.

55

[quote]rander wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Excuses are what losers make up to justify sucking.

this is fucking poetry, where did you hear that?[/quote]

made it up.

56

Another related aspect of this debate that has been coming to the fore in my mind lately is the inherent and unavoidable limitations of any interaction that happens between people over a computer network.

No amount of advice, regardless of how sound, can be as good as being there with the person. I just KNOW, a lot of these, especially younger guys, are not working nearly as hard as they think they are. Explaining exercise form is helpful and pointing someone to a video is even better, but says nothing of whether THEY are actually performing it effectively or not despite all their enthusiastic assurances that they are.

This came into very clear focus for me with a kid in the beginners section who really did sound like he wanted to get somewhere. I realized that I could type 50 pages, but still couldn’t really get it across the same as if I was there. One, [quote]NO! NO ! NO!, like this[/quote] or [quote]You ain’t done yet!!! tighten it up and get 2 more[/quote] is worth a million words on a computer screen.

All that said, which group of guys at your gym is most likely to provide the most useful direction and make no mistake, most guys who have worked their asses off to achieve serious results will make some time for somebody who they perceive as having the same drive they did when they started. There’s always exceptions, but most guys with the type of character and perseverance to achieve the most over time in this game also have the character to do some mentoring provided they don’t think they’re wasting their time.

Hanging out here, reading article etc. can all be tools, but nothing will get you as far as a guy who can grab you by the back of your neck and stick your face in some real life training.

57

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Another related aspect of this debate that has been coming to the fore in my mind lately is the inherent and unavoidable limitations of any interaction that happens between people over a computer network.

No amount of advice, regardless of how sound, can be as good as being there with the person. I just KNOW, a lot of these, especially younger guys, are not working nearly as hard as they think they are. Explaining exercise form is helpful and pointing someone to a video is even better, but says nothing of whether THEY are actually performing it effectively or not despite all their enthusiastic assurances that they are.

This came into very clear focus for me with a kid in the beginners section who really did sound like he wanted to get somewhere. I realized that I could type 50 pages, but still couldn’t really get it across the same as if I was there. One, NO! NO ! NO!, like this or You ain’t done yet!!! tighten it up and get 2 more is worth a million words on a computer screen.

All that said, which group of guys at your gym is most likely to provide the most useful direction and make no mistake, most guys who have worked their asses off to achieve serious results will make some time for somebody who they perceive as having the same drive they did when they started. There’s always exceptions, but most guys with the type of character and perseverance to achieve the most over time in this game also have the character to do some mentoring provided they don’t think they’re wasting their time.

Hanging out here, reading article etc. can all be tools, but nothing will get you as far as a guy who can grab you by the back of your neck and stick your face in some real life training.[/quote]

Good Post.

58

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Another related aspect of this debate that has been coming to the fore in my mind lately is the inherent and unavoidable limitations of any interaction that happens between people over a computer network.

No amount of advice, regardless of how sound, can be as good as being there with the person. I just KNOW, a lot of these, especially younger guys, are not working nearly as hard as they think they are. Explaining exercise form is helpful and pointing someone to a video is even better, but says nothing of whether THEY are actually performing it effectively or not despite all their enthusiastic assurances that they are.

This came into very clear focus for me with a kid in the beginners section who really did sound like he wanted to get somewhere. I realized that I could type 50 pages, but still couldn’t really get it across the same as if I was there. One, NO! NO ! NO!, like this or You ain’t done yet!!! tighten it up and get 2 more is worth a million words on a computer screen.

All that said, which group of guys at your gym is most likely to provide the most useful direction and make no mistake, most guys who have worked their asses off to achieve serious results will make some time for somebody who they perceive as having the same drive they did when they started. There’s always exceptions, but most guys with the type of character and perseverance to achieve the most over time in this game also have the character to do some mentoring provided they don’t think they’re wasting their time.

Hanging out here, reading article etc. can all be tools, but nothing will get you as far as a guy who can grab you by the back of your neck and stick your face in some real life training.[/quote]

Perfectly understandable.

I think that it comes down to how much faith you have in the system. You can’t help everyone and my personality would lead me to help one or two people in-depth who seem visibly dedicated as opposed to trying to respond to every single person’s cry for help. But, I have made observations since I joined here a couple years ago that would narrow down the number of dedicated young guys quickly. Think about it this way, the personality traits of very successful trainees who achieve their long-term goals and have everyone asking them for help seems to be pretty common. These type of people are not GENERALLY the ones who post topic after topic about how pissed off they are about new-year resolution lifters coming into “their” gym. They are not the ones who make fun of beginners who appear to be seriously making an effort to improve themselves as MOST of those are in the SRC thread. They are not the ones who walk around the gym with a smug look on their face and usually are not the ones who post topics whose answers can be discovered in a few google searches. They are the ones who are hard to find on the forums because they keep their mouth shut and listen to the vets without having to say “I agree” with others’ opinions.

This is my type of organized system for pinpointing those who care and mentoring those who will appreciate your efforts.

59

[quote]Professor X wrote:
In fact, I’ll go one better. Considering how often one might get challenged on this site, do you honestly think many would argue face to face with someone about many of these issues if that person were much larger than them?[/quote]

Why the hell wouldn’t they? I am not following…

60

JP,

If I’m reading correctly I think that X is getting at…

In a gym or even social setting if Johnny Stickboy(let’s say 6’1 155 lean) talked to Bobby Bulldozer(6’1 265 lean) about training, it would be pretty damn silly for Johnny to think he knows more about getting big than Bobby.