[quote]blue9steel wrote:
Unless you’ve just won a gold medal in the olympics, or you’re a professional athlete of some kind the chances that you’ve hit your genetic ceiling are somewhere between zero and none.[/quote]
Point blank! Spot on! Bullseye!
End of thread/ should have been right here
[quote]SGDerek wrote:
Huh. This thread is kind of funny.
I AM a hardgainer. I heal slowly, have low volume tolerance, a “fast” metabolism, long recovery periods, thin bones/joints and high muscle insertion points. Really, I shouldn’t be bodybuilding at all. But I do - I lift hard and eat big and slowly, painfully grind out a few extra pounds of LBM every few months. About the only thing going for me is my ability to handle carbs well.
You guys seem to downplay genetics a lot, but the fact is that I have to work harder for less.[/quote]
Yeah, I think it is just one of those things that some people would rather avoid or become slightly delusional instead of facing head on and admit, because with admitting there is acceptance and with acceptance there is a conscious lack of control/power which men tend to hate, lol.
By the way this notion that one has to train for years and years or be extremely active to know one’s genetic limit is misguided it is one’s genetic ability that is more important, you don’t have to train for 10 years non-stop to know that you may not have the best genetics, there is nothing fair in life and survival so why would Genetics be a guiding beacon of something you can fairy tale a story about for yourself?
This is not meant to be negative as has been stated time and time again and is becoming a bit of a cliche but simple awareness is all that is required. Everyone here is interested in looking better so I doubt people are going to use it as purely an excuse, and if they do it may have merit or it may be bollocks but that is case by case.
Take this for instance, is general intelligence largely a genetic trait? If so is everyone equal and is everyone able to understand and to work at the level of each other? Are some people much more quicker and smarter on subjects? Do some people not have to try very hard in school?
If you have a below average IQ can you still graduate high school, college et cetera? Sure, but you have to work harder and even then you will never be as smart. This doesn’t mean give up, but it is blazingly obvious. Does this mean that someone with a below average IQ (not that IQ is a perfect tool of measuring one’s intelligence) has to work at becoming smarter for 10 years to realize they are not as smart as others.
Plus if I change or shift my “mental energy” can I become smarter than I was genetically and biologically programmed to be (in terms of raising my general intelligence not conditioned intelligence based on more life experiences)?
[quote]merlin wrote:
blue9steel wrote:
Unless you’ve just won a gold medal in the olympics, or you’re a professional athlete of some kind the chances that you’ve hit your genetic ceiling are somewhere between zero and none.
Point blank! Spot on! Bullseye!
End of thread/ should have been right here[/quote]
Not so much I could take a guy who sucks at running and have him run every day, he will get better but he may never be world class.
The statement above is also a fallacy because would someone have to become a professional athlete or win a Gold medal to reach their genetic ceiling? Why would someone who achieves so highly only then be “hitting their genetic ceiling”, what if running a mile in 10 minutes is their ceiling, which is much more likely than winning a gold medal. If everyone is different why would the precedence be set that to hit your genetic limit you have to achieve something that only a small fraction of people can do, IE; not everyone.
Who is to say that those professional athletes have even hit their genetic ceiling maybe they haven’t…
If genetics are variable then so is one’s “genetic ceiling” and most would not need a gold medal to realize this.
[quote]EmperialChina wrote:
The statement above is also a fallacy because would someone have to become a professional athlete or win a Gold medal to reach their genetic ceiling?[/quote]
I was merely suggesting that most people are wasting their time wondering if they’re at their “genetic limit” because they’re not. If you’re far enough along in your training to be considered “olympic” or “professional” then I’d posit that while you probably haven’t hit your limit, it’s at least a reasonable question.
[quote]blue9steel wrote:
EmperialChina wrote:
The statement above is also a fallacy because would someone have to become a professional athlete or win a Gold medal to reach their genetic ceiling?
I was merely suggesting that most people are wasting their time wondering if they’re at their “genetic limit” because they’re not. If you’re far enough along in your training to be considered “olympic” or “professional” then I’d posit that while you probably haven’t hit your limit, it’s at least a reasonable question.
[/quote]
Sorry, my bad. I see your point and agree.
My posts came off too one-dimensional and sound pessimistic. I think everyone who replied to in this thread is coherent and aware.
I understand where many are coming from when they say genetics is a part but not a whole as there is still much a knowledgeable person can control and add.
This doesn’t really have to do with bodybuilding but on another thread a while back I mentioned how a trainer at my gym used the analogy of the fat gene and how some of his clients use that to say they are genetically predisposed for being fat so they can’t help it. He said he told them (this is the bad part) some of the folks in concentration camps probably had the fat gene but they sure ended up skinny.
in other words, genetics are circumstances to overcome or to give you a leg up but that is it, it is up to the individual to make with it what they have.
I think it’s safe to come back now ha…
emperialchina and sgderek actually read what I was trying to say and have restored some faith in me. Good points by both and I hope people try to get a grasp on what they are saying as well. So with that I’ve got a little more to say to hopefully steer this back where I want it to go…
I have no idea what my genetic potential for bodybuilding (which is what this thread is about) as far as maximum muscle I can carry, how I’ll react if I ever use drugs or any of those “down the road” type things. Nobody does…
What I do know is the things I’ve figured out about myself in the first several years. I don’t blow up from training like a Dillet or Wheeler (who does?) but I’m not a hard gainer either. I don’t grow off 2 meals a day, or even 5, it takes constant feeding for me to grow. Is that me crying about it? No I don’t think so and hope it isn’t taken as that. It’s me saying alright this is what I’ve got to work with and this is what I’ve got to do to get where I want. If you take this post as anything other than that I can not and will not bother to explain ha.
My biceps are a weak body part but my triceps are strong, chest and shoulders weak, back strong, legs strong. 10 years down the line I have a pretty strong feeling my biceps are not going to suddenly overtake my triceps as the standout part of my upper arm it’s just not in the cards. It’s not because I don’t know how to train my biceps and I�??ll be damned if I haven�??t tried every �??low bicep�?? procedure I could get my hands on ha. It’s because I know what gifts I do have and what I don’t. I will not stress about it or let it worry me.
I think in my eyes I have 250 and lean in my potential but I sure as hell would love to go past that if my commitment is still there to take it to the extreme levels. I won’t believe I’ve hit my genetic ceiling until I’ve exhausted every controllable method (safely always). I won’t do the things that some are willing to try, and I’m speaking on abusive levels of AAS and SEO, because that’s just not my prerogative. But once I have exhausted my methods you can bet your bottom dollar I will be able to accept it and be happy with it because I�??ll know I�??ve done my best and accomplished something I set out to do.
I want to end with a question and I think it�??d be interesting to hear some responses. If you could go down to your local grocery store and buy a machine that would take your blood and say here�??s your maximum amount of muscle you can carry, here�??s an image of the best you could possibly look, and so on to 100% accuracy (please don�??t debate whether or not this could happen I realize it can�??t), who here would want it? And either way, why?
[quote]SGDerek wrote:
Huh. This thread is kind of funny.
I AM a hardgainer. I heal slowly, have low volume tolerance, a “fast” metabolism, long recovery periods, thin bones/joints and high muscle insertion points. Really, I shouldn’t be bodybuilding at all. But I do - I lift hard and eat big and slowly, painfully grind out a few extra pounds of LBM every few months. About the only thing going for me is my ability to handle carbs well.
You guys seem to downplay genetics a lot, but the fact is that I have to work harder for less.[/quote]
part of your problem could be intensity. My parnter started out at 6 feet tall 145 pound and is allmost 190 now 4 years later. Heavy Duty (and LOTS of food…were talking buffets baby) with a little volume and powerlifting moves as staples.
I’d buy that test in a heartbeat.
Why? Because I spend a damned lot of time, money, and effort on improving (however slowly) my body composition. And I want to know when my head will bump the glass ceiling.
But more than that - I want to know how much further I have to go. With an ultimate goal like that, you’d have no excuse for throwing your all into every workout and plate of ground beef.
[quote]merlin wrote:
blue9steel wrote:
Unless you’ve just won a gold medal in the olympics, or you’re a professional athlete of some kind the chances that you’ve hit your genetic ceiling are somewhere between zero and none.
Point blank! Spot on! Bullseye!
End of thread/ should have been right here[/quote]
It is also meaningless. Genetics matter. Some people need to work harder than others and still will not look as good.
[quote]bealedozer wrote:
SGDerek wrote:
Huh. This thread is kind of funny.
I AM a hardgainer. I heal slowly, have low volume tolerance, a “fast” metabolism, long recovery periods, thin bones/joints and high muscle insertion points. Really, I shouldn’t be bodybuilding at all. But I do - I lift hard and eat big and slowly, painfully grind out a few extra pounds of LBM every few months. About the only thing going for me is my ability to handle carbs well.
You guys seem to downplay genetics a lot, but the fact is that I have to work harder for less.
part of your problem could be intensity. My parnter started out at 6 feet tall 145 pound and is allmost 190 now 4 years later. Heavy Duty (and LOTS of food…were talking buffets baby) with a little volume and powerlifting moves as staples.
[/quote]
How about the guys that START at 190 pounds?
[quote]Dark_Knight wrote:
USNS physique wrote:
Again, positive mental attitude means ZILCH.
A positive mental attitude is so necessary for so much (beyond simply bodybuilding), this statement is totally untenable.
[/quote]
How true. Whether I have the genetic potential to reach the level of a pro BB is immaterial to me. I will always train with a positive mind-set and dedication as though I did. Failure is never trying. BTW, cool avatar.
OK so you’ll most likely never be as big as the pros today.
Oh well. Guess you’ll miss out on looking like an un-human freak that 99.99% of people LAUGH at and are disgusted by.
Good news is, EVERYONE has the potential to build a muscular body that STUNS the average person with its size and power.
[quote]scottiscool wrote:
I want to end with a question and I think it�??d be interesting to hear some responses. If you could go down to your local grocery store and buy a machine that would take your blood and say here�??s your maximum amount of muscle you can carry, here�??s an image of the best you could possibly look, and so on to 100% accuracy (please don�??t debate whether or not this could happen I realize it can�??t), who here would want it? And either way, why?
[/quote]
I would much rather have a machine that will tell me the Exact diet how to cook it, how to finance it, how to train, when to sleep and how to fit it into my work schedule.
Even if a machine told me everything you asked, I still might never come close to my potential. I’ll probably say this machine is broke I know my real genetic limit.
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
I would much rather have a machine that will tell me the Exact diet how to cook it, how to finance it, how to train, when to sleep and how to fit it into my work schedule.
Even if a machine told me everything you asked, I still might never come close to my potential. I’ll probably say this machine is broke I know my real genetic limit.[/quote]
Well now that would have to be the 2.0 machine. Isn’t that the fun/challenge of it though? Figuring out what it takes for you.
[quote]scottiscool wrote:
I think it’s safe to come back now ha…
emperialchina and sgderek actually read what I was trying to say and have restored some faith in me. Good points by both and I hope people try to get a grasp on what they are saying as well. So with that I’ve got a little more to say to hopefully steer this back where I want it to go…
I have no idea what my genetic potential for bodybuilding (which is what this thread is about) as far as maximum muscle I can carry, how I’ll react if I ever use drugs or any of those “down the road” type things. Nobody does…
What I do know is the things I’ve figured out about myself in the first several years. I don’t blow up from training like a Dillet or Wheeler (who does?) but I’m not a hard gainer either. I don’t grow off 2 meals a day, or even 5, it takes constant feeding for me to grow. Is that me crying about it? No I don’t think so and hope it isn’t taken as that. It’s me saying alright this is what I’ve got to work with and this is what I’ve got to do to get where I want. If you take this post as anything other than that I can not and will not bother to explain ha.
My biceps are a weak body part but my triceps are strong, chest and shoulders weak, back strong, legs strong. 10 years down the line I have a pretty strong feeling my biceps are not going to suddenly overtake my triceps as the standout part of my upper arm it’s just not in the cards. It’s not because I don’t know how to train my biceps and I�??ll be damned if I haven�??t tried every �??low bicep�?? procedure I could get my hands on ha. It’s because I know what gifts I do have and what I don’t. I will not stress about it or let it worry me.
I think in my eyes I have 250 and lean in my potential but I sure as hell would love to go past that if my commitment is still there to take it to the extreme levels. I won’t believe I’ve hit my genetic ceiling until I’ve exhausted every controllable method (safely always). I won’t do the things that some are willing to try, and I’m speaking on abusive levels of AAS and SEO, because that’s just not my prerogative. But once I have exhausted my methods you can bet your bottom dollar I will be able to accept it and be happy with it because I�??ll know I�??ve done my best and accomplished something I set out to do.
I want to end with a question and I think it�??d be interesting to hear some responses. If you could go down to your local grocery store and buy a machine that would take your blood and say here�??s your maximum amount of muscle you can carry, here�??s an image of the best you could possibly look, and so on to 100% accuracy (please don�??t debate whether or not this could happen I realize it can�??t), who here would want it? And either way, why?
[/quote]
Hi Scott,
I didn’t take your original post as “crying” about genetics. I also agree that genetics do play a role in how easy it is for a person to put on muscle, get lean, strength, etc… and that knowing one’s individual genetic traits is a big help as far as training goes.
After all bodybuilding is sort of like sculpting. The objective is to build a symetrical, proportional final product. As you stated, everyone has their natural “standout” body parts and their natural “weak” body parts. Things like muscle insertion points, muscle shape, etc… cannot be changed regardless of training (Oliva had insanely long biceps, but no matter how hard he trained them couldn’t get them to peak like Arnolds, and vice versa). However, one can bring up weak body parts while maintaining strong body parts to better bring about balance.
I agree that those “weak” body parts will probably never over power the naturally strong ones, but it is possible to at least minimize the natural inbalances inherent in one’s body. Now if someone never took their individual genetic strengths and weaknesses into account and just trained as if all of their body parts grew at the same rate and with the idea in mind that they could change the shape of their muscles, then they’d probably wind up unhappy with the end result.
But, if they are honest with themselves, train in a way to maximize their levels of balance, symetry and size then they’ll probably end up a lot happier with the final result. That will probably mean training the heck out of their weaknesses while maintaining the size and minimizing the amount of work that their naturally strong body parts do.
It also means coming to grips with one’s natural tendencies to put on muscle and stay lean. Some people (like Dillet, Wheeler, etc…) are just genetically gifted in terms of building muscle. They don’t have to eat a whole lot, it takes very little time for them to see results in the weight room and they’ve even got great shape and symetry right out of the gate.
Most people are not like this of course. Some people have an easy time staying lean, but don’t put on muscle easily. For those individuals diet is usually the “magic” ingredient that they must focus most strongly on. Those are the people who must as you said “constantly feed” to put on and maintain muscle mass.
Other people have an easy time putting on size, but they also have a very hard time staying lean. For them once again diet is probably the most important factor (that they can control) and when and if they do decide to lean out it will take a lot of hard work and dedication to get there.
So, yes genetics are important, but once again (as you stated) cannot be changed. All that we can do is to accept the card that we have been dealt and manipulate the variables that we do have control over (training, diet & recovery).
As far as your question about the device that would tell you your genetic limit, my answer is; no, I would not want it.
For me that would take out the sense of discovery and excitement of finding out my genetic limit for myself.
Good training,
Sentoguy
Good post sentoguy and if you check back into my notes on the DC thread about my split you’ll see I am doing my best to bring weak points up with my training. IE reverse grip pulldowns to help secondarily hit biceps and all pressing movements for triceps that will get some chest involvement as well.
I hope people especially the guys on that thread will take some time and thought into how they are setting up training instead of just putting exercises in randomly.
Also I like your answer about knowing your genetic limit and that’s the way I’m leaning the more I think about it.
[quote]scottiscool wrote:
Good post sentoguy and if you check back into my notes on the DC thread about my split you’ll see I am doing my best to bring weak points up with my training. IE reverse grip pulldowns to help secondarily hit biceps and all pressing movements for triceps that will get some chest involvement as well.
I hope people especially the guys on that thread will take some time and thought into how they are setting up training instead of just putting exercises in randomly.
Also I like your answer about knowing your genetic limit and that’s the way I’m leaning the more I think about it. [/quote]
Hi Scott,
Yes, I recall that you stated that you are doing your best to bring up your weak points. That point wasn’t really meant to be directed at you as it’s obvious from your posts that you know what you’re doing. It was more a generalized piece of advice to anyone who might read my post and not be customizing their program to fit their individual needs.
And about the genetic limits, yeah, I mean who would really want to know something like that ahead of time? That would be like being a kid again and knowing exactly what you were going to get for Christmas (sorry if anyone doesn’t celebrate Christmas, or didn’t receive gifts, I’m not trying to offend anyone). Going down stairs on Christmas morning wouldn’t have been nearly as exciting.
Personally I would think that knowing your genetic potential ahead of time would have a similar effect.
Good training,
Sentoguy
a couple liters of oil.
By the way, has anyone seen Flex now? Not a year ago or whatever but this week at the Olympia. He says 4 months of training back and his arms were taped on camera at just shy of 21 inches. That’s muscle memory and tremendous genetics at work my friends.
Edit: And I should add that in the video he challenged anyone who doubted his natural status now to bring a drug test and their money so I’m thinking he’s not lying. 1,000,000 was what he said to put up.