I know all about it. In the context these few guys are putting it, it’s just ridiculous though. Just like a middleweight isnt going to beat cutler for the olympia this year no matter how much he prays.
I understand the mind as the creator thing, but that is an issue far beyond the scope of this forum.
Thib understands positive mental attitude but even he isnt going to tell you attitude will change your DNA from a 140lb ecto to a 240lb meso.
I’m all about the Tony Robbins- I have all his seminars on dvd. Still, you dont see Robbins on the Olympia stage either…
[quote]USNS physique wrote:
Again, positive mental attitude means ZILCH.[/quote]
Who was this post directed towards?
In certain context I agree but was hoping you could clarify.
You people talk about “genetics” like the genes have a fixed behavior from birth, which is far from the truth.
The genetic material responds to the environment, responds to sinalization of itself and to n factors, so many that everyday some paper points out a new way that genes express themselves under different stimuli.
I agree that you wont be changing your insertion points, but the scientific community didnt totally elucidated the molecular and genetic bases of muscular hupertrophy, so we really cant tell how much the genes matter besides determining the insertion points, and even that may be far off… only time can tell.
For now what is really decisive for those who dont grow off simply looking at weights, is what scottiscool and others typed. To eat, train hard and rest.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
USNS physique wrote:
Again, positive mental attitude means ZILCH. You can believe all day long that you can jump over the moon…but you’ll never do it.
USNS, my positive thinking may not get me to jump over the moon, but my mind can talk me into being sick.
I agree genetics play a part in physicallity. The different races prove that. Genetics makes our bodies. Soma cells say we have legs, sex cells say how long they are so the adjective part of our body is hereditary and modifiable.
But don’t discount the mental aspect. People convince themselves they are sick and feel sick, sick people have used positive thoughts and prayer to cure themselves. Anyone who has ever competed has probably taked themselves up before the competition and it makes a difference. It won’t create the win for you but it will give you an assist.
[/quote]
I agree with Octobergirl as well. Besides, we’re talking about bodybuilding here, not super powers.
The power of the mind is quite profound. And while positive thinking can’t change genetic potential, it is nonetheless essential if one is to ever reach that genetic potential. Most sports (bodybuilding is no exception) are at least 50% mental. Sure, good genetics make things a lot easier for some people but even they are never going to reach their potential without the correct mindset.
Also, while I am not arguing that genetics do place an ultimate ceiling on your potential as a bodybuilder/athlete that does not mean that one still can’t drastically improve their physique from where they start.
Sure, without the genetic potential you’re not going to be the next Mr. Olympia, or Figure champ, or Micheal Jordan, or Bo Jackson, etc… Basically you’re not going to reach an elite level without elite genetics.
But, most people don’t need to be elite level athletes in order to enjoy the results of bodybuilding/athletic training. Most people would probably be happy with their genetic potentials if they ever reached them.
Like ScottIsCool mentioned things like muscle length, insertion points, limb lengths, height are determined by genetics and are unchangeable. But, one can still make the most out of what they’ve got.
Basically, yeah, genetics play a role, but they’re no reason not to train hard and reach your potential. I’d also wager that very few people actually do reach their potential and therefore trying to predict genetic limitations is quite a foolish endeavor.
Good training,
Sentoguy
[quote]irongutted wrote:
I agree that you wont be changing your insertion points, but the scientific community didnt totally elucidated the molecular and genetic bases of muscular hupertrophy, so we really cant tell how much the genes matter besides determining the insertion points, and even that may be far off… only time can tell.
.[/quote]
What I like to use is real world gym examples and let the scientific community debate over whether its 23.56 grams of protein I can digest per meal or 31.24. I don’t need a double blind study to show me that Jay Cutler was a TANK 18 months after he started lifting and competing at national level shows.
I could take anyone posting on this thread and train them and use all the drugs in the world and not be able to repeat that. Something is different, whether it’s protein assimilation(there’s my big word of the post ha) recovery ability, a very kind reaction to drugs, lower levels of myostatin, or whatever. He(along with a select few others) have something going on that made him a muscle building machine out of the gates.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
I agree genetics play a part in physicallity. The different races prove that. Genetics makes our bodies. Soma cells say we have legs, sex cells say how long they are so the adjective part of our body is hereditary and modifiable.
[/quote]
Oops, wanted to address this comment.
From a scientific (biological) standpoint, there is NO SUCH THING AS RACE. Race is a socially constructed phenomenon (like gender, and even sex to a certain degree). So, any time someone tries to suggest that certain “races” or people have superior genetics or certain physiological characteristics, they are essentially speaking a bunch of (racist) nonsense.
Individuals have superior/inferior genetics, certain physical characteristics, etc… There is no such thing as race.
Good training,
Sentoguy
What seperated Flex Wheeler from Dorian Yates in peoples opinions?
This is a not a loaded question and I want to get people’s opinions on this(I have mine).
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
I agree genetics play a part in physicallity. The different races prove that. Genetics makes our bodies. Soma cells say we have legs, sex cells say how long they are so the adjective part of our body is hereditary and modifiable.
Oops, wanted to address this comment.
From a scientific (biological) standpoint, there is NO SUCH THING AS RACE. Race is a socially constructed phenomenon (like gender, and even sex to a certain degree). So, any time someone tries to suggest that certain “races” or people have superior genetics or certain physiological characteristics, they are essentially speaking a bunch of (racist) nonsense.
Individuals have superior/inferior genetics, certain physical characteristics, etc… There is no such thing as race.
Good training,
Sentoguy
[/quote]
Thanks Sento,
I should have used ethnicities for clarity.
I am sure you weren’t painting me with a racist brush, just clearing things up.
I also agree with Octobergirl, Scott, Sentoguy etc.
Psychsomatic phenomena are very well documented on the subject of health for instance. Also, while I won’t be thinking myself into a moon jump or Olympia trophy I sure can think myself out of achieving all that I can and so can you. Nobody will EVER accomplish what they don’t believe they can and the biggest problem most underachievers have in this game is between their ears, not in their genes.
[quote]scottiscool wrote:
What seperated Flex Wheeler from Dorian Yates in peoples opinions?
This is a not a loaded question and I want to get people’s opinions on this(I have mine).
[/quote]
Symmetry vs sheer size. Everything was huge on Yates. His muscles seem to just blend in at the insertion points. Flex had a great flow of muscularity. Everything was separated, striated and balanced. He had a small waist broad, round shoulders, great biceps and great quads.
To me, Flex better represented what Mr. O should be. Yates was impressive because of massive physique, but blurred the line of symmetry and proportion.
Big I didn’t quite put my question how I wanted ha. What I really meant was what caused Dorian to win the Olympia and Wheeler not? Both have great genetics for sure, one of them had much better in terms of muscle shape and frame(and myostatin mutation), the other has 6 sandow trophies.
On second(maybe third) thought I’ll just post up what I’m thinking of.
Flex=amazing genetics in terms of shape, waist to shoulder width, roundness to his muscles. Reported to have myostatin mutation. Was said to be a very lazy trainer and didn’t push it hard(hell he didn’t have to ha)and didn’t eat very much.
Dorian=also great genetics but more “blocky” of a physique, not anywhere near Flex’s look, but strengths none the less. As everyone knows trained with a take no prisoners attitude and ate his way up to new size between shows.
One guy has on paper what looks like the superior genetics. I mean we are talking about a mutation that unlocks potential for insane muscle growth. Couple that with perfectly shaped muscles(besides calves, uh oh that’s a genetic thing ha) and you’ve got what seems unbeatable… IF THE PERSON DOES EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER TO GET TO THEIR LIMITS.
One guy pushed his limits in strength and food(Yates) and the other cruised his way up the chain. Yates CRUSHED Flex onstage by at least 25 lbs of muscle mass.
So this is a case of unreached potential in my eyes for Wheeler. Give him Yates mindset with his genetics and barring health issues from Flex we’d likely have a 10+ time Olympia winner if he wanted.
So take home message? Take everything you have control over, food training etc and push it as far as you want to take it and be happy with where you are at the end of the day.
[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
I agree genetics play a part in physicallity. The different races prove that. Genetics makes our bodies. Soma cells say we have legs, sex cells say how long they are so the adjective part of our body is hereditary and modifiable.
Oops, wanted to address this comment.
From a scientific (biological) standpoint, there is NO SUCH THING AS RACE. Race is a socially constructed phenomenon (like gender, and even sex to a certain degree). So, any time someone tries to suggest that certain “races” or people have superior genetics or certain physiological characteristics, they are essentially speaking a bunch of (racist) nonsense.
Individuals have superior/inferior genetics, certain physical characteristics, etc… There is no such thing as race.
Good training,
Sentoguy
Thanks Sento,
I should have used ethnicities for clarity.
I am sure you weren’t painting me with a racist brush, just clearing things up.
[/quote]
Hi October,
No, I was not trying to suggest you were a racist. 
I made that comment in response to the way that a lot of people use the word race to say things like “black people are just genetically predisposed to being professional athletes” or something along those lines. That’s a racist (albeit often times not intentionally harmful or derogatory) view point that has actually existed since the pre-civil rights era.
Whenever someone makes a comment about a person’s muscular levels, athletic ability, hormonal make up, etc… and ties it to their “race”, it makes me cringe a little, because it’s perpetuating the false “truth” of race.
Good training,
Sentoguy
[quote]scottiscool wrote:
On second(maybe third) thought I’ll just post up what I’m thinking of.
Flex=amazing genetics in terms of shape, waist to shoulder width, roundness to his muscles. Reported to have myostatin mutation. Was said to be a very lazy trainer and didn’t push it hard(hell he didn’t have to ha)and didn’t eat very much.
Dorian=also great genetics but more “blocky” of a physique, not anywhere near Flex’s look, but strengths none the less. As everyone knows trained with a take no prisoners attitude and ate his way up to new size between shows.
One guy has on paper what looks like the superior genetics. I mean we are talking about a mutation that unlocks potential for insane muscle growth. Couple that with perfectly shaped muscles(besides calves, uh oh that’s a genetic thing ha) and you’ve got what seems unbeatable… IF THE PERSON DOES EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER TO GET TO THEIR LIMITS.
One guy pushed his limits in strength and food(Yates) and the other cruised his way up the chain. Yates CRUSHED Flex onstage by at least 25 lbs of muscle mass.
So this is a case of unreached potential in my eyes for Wheeler. Give him Yates mindset with his genetics and barring health issues from Flex we’d likely have a 10+ time Olympia winner if he wanted.
So take home message? Take everything you have control over, food training etc and push it as far as you want to take it and be happy with where you are at the end of the day. [/quote]
Great post Scott.
Genetics are like “Lifetime Income”…
You don’t know what it is until it’s over.
Not worth worrying about.
Genetics should be seen as an enabling factor, not a limiting factor.
People who aren’t getting the results they want need to change their training.
That is why everyones training is different. People who try to tell everyone “the right way” are fooling themselves.
I agree with the person who said that this thinking is setting yourself up for failure.
When I was younger, I went through a “HIT” phase; along with this came Arthur Jones biologically deterministic thinking, about “muscle belly length”, “recovery ability” etc. When I wasn’t making Casey Viator like gains, I thought it was just my bad luck. I blamed myself not the program.
Out of desperation/extreme motivation, I decided that maybe I didn’t know everything and followed one of “Arnies” recommended programs (the horror)…guess what? I, and my ectomorphic workout partner who had hardly trained before, grew like weeds. As naturals, doing 20 or so sets per bp 2x per week.
Go figure.
It was a lesson I never forgot.
I’m not saying “do 20 sets per bodypart”, if I could do it again I would likely have done it with less frequency a la Lee Priest.
But the point is my potential was a LOT higher than I thought it was. I went from “just your luck” to “you have good genes for lifting”…Lol.
I have yet to meet the person who cannot make SIGNIFICANT gains. The last place finisher in the Olympia, or the America, still looks pretty damned good right?
Genetics are like “Lifetime Income”…
You don’t know what it is until it’s over.
Not worth worrying about.
Genetics should be seen as an enabling factor, not a limiting factor.
People who aren’t getting the results they want need to change their training.
That is why everyones training is different. People who try to tell everyone “the right way” are fooling themselves.
I agree with the person who said that this thinking is setting yourself up for failure.
When I was younger, I went through a “HIT” phase; along with this came Arthur Jones biologically deterministic thinking, about “muscle belly length”, “recovery ability” etc. When I wasn’t making Casey Viator like gains, I thought it was just my bad luck. I blamed myself not the program.
Out of desperation/extreme motivation, I decided that maybe I didn’t know everything and followed one of “Arnies” recommended programs (the horror)…guess what? I, and my ectomorphic workout partner who had hardly trained before, grew like weeds. As naturals, doing 20 or so sets per bp 2x per week.
Go figure.
It was a lesson I never forgot.
I’m not saying “do 20 sets per bodypart”, if I could do it again I would likely have done it with less frequency a la Lee Priest.
But the point is my potential was a LOT higher than I thought it was. I went from “just your luck” to “you have good genes for lifting”…Lol.
I have yet to meet the person who cannot make SIGNIFICANT gains. The last place finisher in the Olympia, or the America, still looks pretty damned good right?
My genetics make me not want to do anything with a positive attitude, what’s the point of doing anything if I don’t have great genetics!? cries
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
<<<<>>>>
Great post Scott.[/quote]
I thought so too.
This has to be the thread on how to have the ultimate loser mentality.
I’d say 99.9999999999999% of all the people I’ve seen saying they don’t have the genetics to do whatever they wanted to do didn’t have the work ethic, fortitude, knowledge, or desire to accomplish what they blame on their genetics anyway. People need to be honest with themselves.
You do 5 cluster/drop sets of squats with leg extensions for 1 year because CT said so don’t blame your genetics blame your dumb ass for not seeing that something didn’t work. Hey maybe all you needed was one set of a negative.
It’s going to take more than well he looked like that at 17 to convince me that someone else is a failure because they don’t have the genetic code to build muscle.