I don’t beleive nature ever intended us to leave heavyass iron on a perfect straight bar with even weight on each side that is the same exact size and shape in the form of bench and squat. Shoes and clothes are purely a product manufactured by man, as is soap and razors. It should be unshaved, unbathed, nude, barefoot heavy stone lifting, just like the Greeks had in mind.
Actually I was thinking more along the lines of just seeing how much people can lift without drugs or gear that obviously adds 100’s of pounds to the bench press and the squat.
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So basically, you are just looking for things to blame being a weak pussy on.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
From working in a gym though, I have seen people’s lifts go up a lot when they are using and then, go down when they stop. If I had to guess, I would think that the range is similar to a bench shirt but with maybe a lower end (20-30%).
The question that I wanted to know was how much people actually get to keep of their gains when they get off of the stuff, not what they get by doing it. I have seen what people get by doing it, but as far as what they get to keep when they get off of them, this is a different story, especially since when most people do them, they just keep doing them.
steroids are useless and bench shirts are only for injury prevention.
discuss amongst yourselves…
in a parallel universe drugs can add 10-30% depending on dose and length of use, and lifting gear can add 200-300lbs in the squat and 50-300 in the BP. DL a tight suit may get you 50-100.
Both kinds of gear require use, practice, and time.
Pick what you use or won’t use, then take care of your business.
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
Synthetickiller wrote:
Can we just shut this thread down? PLEASE?
Why? I am just curious how much the figures look like when you take away the vitamin s, all of the gear and the rest… Lifting the way that nature intended us to lift, with our own natural test levels and our limbs.
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
Synthetickiller wrote:
Can we just shut this thread down? PLEASE?
Why? I am just curious how much the figures look like when you take away the vitamin s, all of the gear and the rest… Lifting the way that nature intended us to lift, with our own natural test levels and our limbs.
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I think this is an innocent line of inquiry. The fact of the matter is that juice is just another training/lifestyle variable- just like intensity, volume, diet, sleep, mental/emotional state, next cool trainign trick of the week, etc. Nature intended me to be a 120 pound, 5 foot tall, frightened little ape in East African savannah. Nature intended me to die by age 30. Nature intended that only half of my childern should live through infancy. Natures intends in a way that I do not agree with.
[quote]Pinto wrote:
Julius_Caesar wrote:
Synthetickiller wrote:
Can we just shut this thread down? PLEASE?
Why? I am just curious how much the figures look like when you take away the vitamin s, all of the gear and the rest… Lifting the way that nature intended us to lift, with our own natural test levels and our limbs.
I think this is an innocent line of inquiry. The fact of the matter is that juice is just another training/lifestyle variable- just like intensity, volume, diet, sleep, mental/emotional state, next cool trainign trick of the week, etc. Nature intended me to be a 120 pound, 5 foot tall, frightened little ape in East African savannah. Nature intended me to die by age 30. Nature intended that only half of my childern should live through infancy. Natures intends in a way that I do not agree with.[/quote]
I think this is an innocent line of inquiry. The fact of the matter is that juice is just another training/lifestyle variable- just like intensity, volume, diet, sleep, mental/emotional state, next cool trainign trick of the week, etc. Nature intended me to be a 120 pound, 5 foot tall, frightened little ape in East African savannah. Nature intended me to die by age 30. Nature intended that only half of my childern should live through infancy. Natures intends in a way that I do not agree with.[/quote]
I guess nature intended us, wasn’t the best choice of words…
We evolved into the species that we are today from tens of thousands of years of natural selection. We became the most highly ecephalized and use our intelligence to create technological advances.
Technology can be used or abused.
Many people agree on what it using or abusing technology.
There wouldn’t be much of an argument that if we used recombinant DNA to cure a disease for example that this would be using technology.
On the other hand, what if someone used recombinant DNA to create a stronger human, by either taking DNA from strong humans and injecting it into weaker ones, or maybe even DNA from other species like a horse or a bull into humans? If it would make people bigger and stronger is there any doubt that people would be lining up to do it or that unethical people would use it to cheat against people who aren’t genetically doped up.
[quote]Julius_Caesar wrote:
Pinto wrote:
From experience, I would say that a good long cycle at a hearty doseage for a seasoned lifter is good for maybe 5-10%. If we look at the best drug-free lifters in comparison to their “enhanced” counterparts using similar gear, similar rules, we see that the difference are typically in this 5-10%. Compare John Bernor or Charles Bailey’s lifts with juiced SHWs or 275s and you’ll see what I mean. Juice matters much less than gear mastery.
I’ve seen guys get more out of their juice. However, in these cases, the lifter is usually a young, skinny guy. Simple weight gain changed their lifts dramatically. For example- their old bench shirt that fit them loosely before their cycle (and therefore didn’t give a whole lotta pop) became an awesome, tight-fitting shirt. Plus, weighing 20-30 lbs more, regardless of whether that’s fat, water, or actual muscle, will improve your leverage and make you more stable. This weight gain aspect is generally what casues their lifts to go down when they go off the gravy. Since the popular steroids in PLing (long-estered testosterones, anadrol, dianabol) tend to cause a lot of water retention, when the lifter goes off, the water-weight goes real quick. The additional body weight goes with it.
Interesting figures, but from observations, since I have never used, the common gym rats that I see typically get above 10% when they are on juice and loose some of it when they go off of it; this is raw of course. All of these guys usually don’t follow anything that even remotely resembles an actual (powerlifting routine) routine either. Most of them bench press only and it’s hard to see how extra water weight would help leverage there.
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Gear is hard to determine in regards to how much it helps. So much is technique related.
As for steroids, I’ve seen guys keep almost all their gains post cycle. Training heavy powerlifting style will help to keep both size and strength
I’ve seen fellows keep all of their gains in strength for what it’s worth.
I think these threads come about as someone stated, so people can see how they are doing in relation to others.
Don’t worry about it. I guarantee you will make better gains if you find a strong group of steroid taking powerlifters and train with them drug free, than training with weaker drug free guys.
It’s a matter of seeing that it can be done and accepting you can do it. Challenging limits so to speak. I’ve seen guys make great gains with a group that were impossible on their own or without the group, even though they were drug free.
On the other hand, what if someone used recombinant DNA to create a stronger human, by either taking DNA from strong humans and injecting it into weaker ones, or maybe even DNA from other species like a horse or a bull into humans? If it would make people bigger and stronger is there any doubt that people would be lining up to do it or that unethical people would use it to cheat against people who aren’t genetically doped up.
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I would like to see how it worked out for others first. The area of genetic engineering in humans is in its emryonic stage and it’s hard to judge the collateral effects of such things. However, the concept of using superior genetic material from other people and animals to obtain their best attributes appeals to me on both a practical and spiritual level. There’s something very primal about this- not unlike carving the beating heart from a worthy adversary and eating it to obtain the dead man’s soul.