Agathos - I’m here to attack your reasoning. You did well on speleen and grammur.
So we can just let unwarranted attacks go on the OT forum? Then why even moderate it? Why question it in society either? They’re just words. Who cares about discrimination? It’s not that bad, is it?
WTF?
ZEB:
This is something like twice in one week I’ve come to disagree with your speech in entirety.
Actually, I’d say I’m primarily annoyed with your tone as if you were correcting a child, particularly when you spout logical fallacies every other paragraph.
In detail:
If someone finds that the act of two men having anal sex as sickening, I don’t find that as bashing anyone.
What does this have to do with anything? A vast number of gay individuals choose NOT to engage in anal sex, and either way, it’s certainly none of your business.
And it’s not the THOUGHT that qualifies as ‘bashing’.
have the right to comment on it by describing the act as “sick”.
Yes indeed, alongside the right to use ‘nigger’, ‘spic’, and ‘chink’ in public. It’s exceedingly bad form, and illustrates only lack of understanding, not any kind of enlightened purism.
should a person remain silent when he is offended
And why should our Joe Random be offended? In what context do private homosexual acts come to a fore?
In fact, it would be unnatural for a heterosexual to embrace the lifestyle of the homosexual.
Why? Because there are MORE heteros? Because that’s the accepted standard? Ask a black person born in 40s what they think of the accepted standard, perhaps you’ll open your eyes.
Embrace, no. Accept, YES. You misinterpret the definition. No individual should have to deal with your verbal abuse simply because you don’t agree with his lifestyle.
The implication is that some straight men “fear” homosexuals so they verbally attack them. while this may be true with a small minority of straight men.
Minority my ass. It’s absolutely fear, fear of change, fear for lack of understanding. For the rest, hate for the sake of hate.
Are they afraid of the homosexual?
… and you misconstrue a definition again.
I think more they are expressing an extreme opposition to the act,
And we come to the crux. The ACT is none of your business, and the emotions that define the act do NOT exist by choice!
Until you understand that, this debate will go nowhere.
Finally, you state “if you have a problem with the gay lifestyle, fine keep it to yourself”. You had a problem with straight men commenting negatively on gay men. Did you keep it to yourself?
Again, a misguided analogy. Straight men comment by choice and infringe on the gay pursuit of happiness in the process. You can’t shoot someone down for protesting injustice.
Your last two paragraphs are self-serving crap. Don’t try to draw Rumbach’s post as a paradigm of hypocrisy. It doesn’t exist as you write it.
DI
First: I agree with Cupcake.
Caveat for the rest of the thread: Freedom of speech is much more important than the right of the easily offended to shut others up so that they are no longer offended.
IMHO, freedom of speech is the most important right we have, and is the lynchpin of the democratic process, which is premised on people making informed decisions. To paraphrase UCLA 1st Amendment law prof Eugene Volokh, which decision would you be most comfortable with: 1) A conclusion that has been reached after a full debate; or 2) A conclusion that has been reached after one side has been supressed?
This is especially true in any area where the majority is sure it is correct. Fewer than 50 years ago, the majority was firmly convinced that homosexuality was a psychological affliction of some sort, and the majority was apt to try to silence those who questioned that “obvious” fact. Now the trend is reversing, precisely because of freedom of speech – but don’t you think the weight of majority views could still fall on your favorite position/belief if you begin to countenance erosion of freedom of speech?
Sorry – I guess I was a little leery of this whole topic, but then this statement by XXLTank set me off:
"Speaking as a gay man…
Zeb, freedom of speech is all fair and good but abuse of it is not. I agree with Rumbach, somethings are just not right to say or think."
Look, just let people say what they will say, and then put in your $0.02 if you think the person/idea is worth your time and effort. Louts will be louts – but on the other hand, it would help everyone if people took things as they were likely intended rather than looking for reasons to be offended.
(BTW, side note for XXL Tank – I love Rosie O’Donnell’s take on the whole “As a lesbian…” thing. As a lesbian, I’d like a Coke. As a lesbian… doesn’t mean anything. It’s shorthand for trying to grab moral high ground, but it distracts from the ideas being discussed.)
When you see a woman kissing a man do you think, “What is that woman thinking, can’t she see that’s a man she’s kissing? How repuganant!”
John K - No.
"...I have alot of gay clients and kid around with them about the same stuff that is discussed on this forum. To you it is offensive, to them it is just a joke..."
I’m sick and tired of people who say, “Oh, I’m not a bigot… I have a friend who’s from a certain minority subgroup.”
First of all, just because you know a few gay people, that doesn’t give you the right to make fun of other gay people. Secondly, I’m pretty sure these gay clients of yours would prefer you NOT kid around with them about their lifestyle (and if they don’t mind, it’s only because they know you and they accept you for who you are).
We all have a right to gay bash if we want to. Doing it just doesn’t make us better people.
I’m appalled at the complete lack of caring for others on this board. I wish this cross section of humanity was a little more considerate of others.
Bash away, if it makes you feel better.
And ZEB, your reasoning on some of these issues is atrocious. However, rebutting your “arguments” would be futile, as they’ve obviously only been spawned out of emotion, and not logic. Fighting emotion with logic is pointless.
Geeze!
ZEB, I’m with you, buddy. These thought police are scary. We shouldn’t even THINK that homos are gross! Yikes!
I have one question for the homophopic or homorepugnant, if you wish, among you.
If a guy wants to suck another guy’s prick or stick his dick up another guy’s ass, how does this affect you as an individual?
Does it stop you from making a living or studying? Does it stop you from training and getting stronger, bigger or leaner? Does it stop you from making love to a woman? Does it stop you from doing anything you want to do?
I find the way most people eat repugnant but does that affect me? Does that stop me from eating the way I want to in order to achieve my physique goals? No. I choose what foods I put in my mouth and they choose what foods they put in theirs. What good is bashing them going to do me?
I also find the intolerance, hatred and judgmental attitude of many of the people who post on this forum repugnant. But bashing them will do me no good either.
Live and let live already.
I’m going to stay off of the main topic, and just limit my comments to this:
Morg is an absolute, stone-age, one-brain-celled-having, can’t tie his own shoes, damn-I-wish-Jason-Baran-were-back-instead idiot, and this forum would be better off without him.
Been wanting to say that for a while now. Seemed like the right thread to do it.
(This thread will accomplish nothing, except stir up shit)
(This post might offend you)
here we go…
These fags kill me…I mean who gives a fuck? most Heteros dont and will never accept your kind and your lifestyle. It’s part of the price you must pay for being a fag. Gay people seem to spend more time complaining about being gay, then actually just being gay.
Don’t compare race/heritage to sexual orientation.
I was born black, I didn’t decide to be black one day. As a Gay, you DECIDED one day to be gay. But wait, you’re going to tell me you were born gay right?? hahaha
Back to the topic, it’s not like in every single post people are deliberately gay bashing. Some might make a few jokes here and there.
Hell, there are even some posts (i.e. blacks dominate sports, etc.) that I found kind of offensive. Do you see me calling out names and crying? No, voice your opinion and move the fuck on.
BOTTOM LINE: If you don’t come around much or feel the need not to post anymore, because of a few comments then you probably don’t have much to offer anyways. I mean if you’re going to let a few coments run you off, then so be it. Don’t use your gayness as martyrdom.
The sooner you accept people are always going to have different P.O.V.s and what not, but all of us here, on this board (gay and straight) are pretty much after the same thing. That is what brings us together.
Chardawg, yeah, cause free thought is something no one should be allowed to have.
Friggin thought police.
One of my better friends is gay. He’s a great guy. I still think gay sex is gross. I don’t even think to bring it up with him. It just doesn’t come to mind because he’s my buddy.
But that makes me an asshole, right?
You guys bring it up, so piss off for acting like I shouldn’t say it’s gross. Get over it! A man’s dick in another man’s mouth/ass is GROSS. It’s disgusting! It’s against nature! Get over it, you jerks! Don’t bring up the topic and get pissed when I give my opinion on it. I have nothing against someone being gay, just as I would have nothing against someone puking (haha, good example, ZEB). You guys need to grow up.
I guess we should accept child molestation and beastiality, cause they’re born that way, right? Dammit, I want to marry my dog, and screw you guys if you think it’s gross! You’re just immature and afraid that you secretly want dog-ass. They should teach dog love in sex ed class, too. And you and your children should embrace my dog loving!
I am a Christian (I know what you are thinking) and based on my study of the bible I feel that homosexuality is wrong.
Should I go around and tell everyone that every chance I get? NO
If someone says in this thread, “I’m not gay, but I don’t have a problem if you are”, or “I’m gay and proud of it” then I have the right to say “I diagree with you”. That doesn’t mean you and I should take potshots at each other.
I could say, "I really like “Seinfeld”, and you could say, “I really don’t”. Should we call each other names and get angry? No.
That does NOT give me liscense to judge you or anyone else. My study of the bible has also taught me that judging shouldn’t be done by any human. If you want to be gay, that is your business. I will not comdemn you nor treat you rudely. It simply means that we have a difference of viewpoints.
The bible says that we were created with free will. I cannot and should not judge you. I try to live my life with a set of moral, values and ethics. That’s true of nearly every human on earth. If I disagree with you, so what? I’m sure you and I will disagree on who the best NBA team is right now.
I know that people will respond to this thread with comments like “the bible is outdated”, or similar comments. That’s your right to express. Don’t get belligerent with me and I won’t with you. Nothing is accomplished by that kind of “discussion” anyway.
Knight,
The fact that you may disagree with me on a few issues does not in fact make you right and me wrong on those issues.
Let me take your incomplete conclusions one by one.
As in my example of someone vomiting. You can tell someone that it is a good thing that the person threw up. However, that does not make it pleasing to the eye or the ear. You can tolerate it for certain. That does not mean that you enjoy watching it, hearing about it or being around it. You further state, “it’s none of your business”. I agree, it’s none of my business. Where did I say it was my business? Point being that when it is placed in the face of some people it sort of becomes their business and can seem repulsive. If it were not "in their face’ there in fact would be no need to comment on it, would there?
You equate the use of the word “nigger” in describing a black man to the use of the word “sick” in describing the homosexual act. As I have stated there is no comparison. Read my second post again perhaps you will come to understand the difference between a race and a behavior. Perhaps there should be special rights for men who like big burly women? Hey, they can’t help it!
I stated, “Should a person remain silent when he is offended”? I never stated that strictly private acts should be discussed. My point was that when certain deeds are placed in public view that comments are going to occur. These comments are only natural and should be expected relative to the act. If you saw a bearded lady or a two headed cow would that not evoke some sort of comment? If 8% of the population is gay as Rumbach claims, that means most of the rest are heterosexual (excluding bisexuals). Which in turn means that seeing a gay act is completly unnatural to them. Do you expect that this would not sicken some?
I stated, “It would be unnatural for a heterosexual to embrace the lifestyle of the homosexual”. If someone defends the act of homosexuality by claiming that they are born that way. It seems only logical that heterosexuals are born that way as well. Therefore, the act of homosexuality is unnatural to a hetersexual, or do heterosexuals not have the same rights as homosexuals in your view?
I stated, “A small minority of straight men may fear homosexuals. However, I think the majority are simply sickened by their behavior”. You state “its absolutely fear”. Do you care to show me the studies and the proof behind this erroneous assertion? I suppose that you think this is correct because it has been stated and restated by the homosexual community. You comment about my logic, but where is your logic on this? It must be fear because so many homosexuals and the “enlightend ones” have said it? If your comment was not so dangerous it would be funny!
Once again you stated, “The act is none of your business”.
I agree, the act is none of my business. I personally do not care what any two consenting adults want to do behind closed doors. Where have I stated that I do?
Let me once again remind you of my point. I feel it is not gay bashing for people to voice their views publicly as long as they do not physically threaten or attempt to intervene in said behavior. I think that this should indicate to you that I am for freedom regarding homosexual activitys. The debate, in case you missed it, is on the commenting about such behavior in an open forum such as this.
You stated, “The emotions do not exist by choice”. Lets assume that is true. However, the jury is still out on that as there is no conclusive proof in either direction. Have you read the personal testimonies of those who have in fact left homosexuality? I wonder what happened on those occasions? I would still maintain that even if the emotions are not by choice, the act is in fact by choice! Is there a magnetic force pulling two men with homosexual tendencys toward each other? The act is a choice no matter what side of the nuture nature debate you fall on!
You stated, “your last two paragraphs are self serving crap”. Well, I will have to pass your feelings on on to the oldest poll company in the country, “Gallup”. The fact that you find their poll on homosexuality crap might mean something to them, but I doubt it. Do you think you might be a bit upset that the majority of Americans do not hold your “enlightend” view.
What you failed to leave out of your ranting diatribe is the fact that I have stated openly that I would physically defend any gay man who was being attacked for simply being gay. Furthermore, I have never once commented negatively on any gay man on any forum including this one. I merely defend the right of those who wish to comment on this behavior.
As to those enlightened wonders who stated “one should not even be thinking in a critical way of homosexuality”. I can only shake my head in disgust. You self proclaimed thought police are the last thing that this nation needs!
Whenever a subject becomes so important to a minority that it cannot even be debated or discussed by the majority, we are not takig a step forward, but a step backward.
It is open debate and airing views that have made this country great. It will be the “enlightened” wonders and the politically correct thought police who destroy it!
GUYS, GUYS, GUYS!..
Fuck, we’re getting a little sideways here, let’s not lose track of the important stuff…
We’re still good to go with the Midgets, right?
Agathos, you Goatfucker.
2 Birds 1 Stone.
Sweet.
*Caution, Springer-like finale coming up …
riiiiiight------>here…I think that the take home message may be:
“Turn down the hate”
You stupid pricks.
“Hatred is the coward’s revenge for being intimidated”
~ George Bernard Shaw
and Char Dawg with the best post yet.
No one is telling anyone that they have to think that two guys getting it on is a pleasant thought. Think what you want, hell if you want to have a half way intelligent discussion on the matter go ahead. Put the insidious comments on any post of “fag” “he must be gay”, “homo,” “Flamer” etc is absolutely assinine and serves no ones in interest that is on here trying to get advice on lifting, nutrition or life in general. I am as right wing, free speech, cut the pc police out of our life as anyone on here, but the idiotic nonsequitor comments such as those above have no place in any educated persons lexicon. Have a discussion if you want, but dont make comments that make you seem like you wear shit stained wife beaters, with your mullet and your puffy hat, and shoot squirells for dinner.
“No one is telling anyone that they have to think that two guys getting it on is a pleasant thought.”
Then what’s this?
“Zeb, freedom of speech is all fair and good but abuse of it is not. I agree with Rumbach, somethings are just not right to say or think.” "
Ok, take this thread for example.
It’s no wonder so many people don’t like gay guys!
WTF, you guys are telling us what we can and cannot think.
People don’t dislike you cause you’re gay, they dislike you cause you’re childish idiots.
anyone that equates the word “nigger” to “fag,” “queer,” “pansy,” or “homo,” is an absolute moron!
i wont even get into the tired “i was born that way” argument.
since when were gays subjected to treatment that comes anywhere near to that of what blacks have endured in this country? that word represents the absolute worst of hundreds of years of slavery, rape, murder, lynching, discrimination and whatever else you would like to add to that list.
unlike blacks in past years, gays have rights in this country equal to that of every other man. up until recently blacks did not, and in all honesty probably never will be treated as equals.
when you choose to be openly gay, you also choose to accept the criticism that comes with that. maybe it isnt right, but thats the way it is, live with it! if you do not like the gay jokes then dont pay attention. according to you it is just ignorance anyhow, so why would you even bother?
and why do the gay “supporters” on this thread keep trying to tell us why we dont like the gay lifestyle? excuse me, i dont like the gay lifestyle because i think it is absolutely fucking disgusting to have any form of physical relationship with another man. no it is not fear, nor is it ignorance. ignorance of what, i might ask? what exactly am i ignorant of? what do i fear?
no it is not fear nor is it ignorance of the gay lifestyle. as a matter of fact i love a portion of the gay lifestyle, that is the lesbian portion. i think lesbians are absolutely freaken great! if i feared the gay lifestyle that wouldnt be possible. as lesbians are in fact gay as well.
stop trying to tell us why we dont like your lifestyle. and stop trying to tell us that we cant exercise our first amendment right. different strokes for different folks, that is what makes this country so great. If you don?t like me and my lifestyle, I really don?t give a shit! I could give a fuck what the next guy thinks. You are not being discriminated against. You are not being placed in segregation. You are allowed to vote, and ride on the same bus as me. So wtf are you crying about?