[quote]sijun wrote:
irishpowerhouse wrote:
When you clean you go into a front squat position, the grip etc. So it makes sense to master this way of squatting.
Why back squat if your sport is asking you to front squat?
i agree
[/quote]
I believe this is why Olympic lifters use a high-bar position on the back. The front squat is still trained very frequently so that the movement is completely ingrained.
Most of the back squatting is really to replace extra front squatting in the program and is supposed to emphasize the same muscles while giving some rest to the supporting muscles in the front squat. It’s meant to train the same movement with slightly more poundage, which is another reason why a completely different squat variation would make no sense.
[quote]Hanley wrote:
As for successful US lifters, Kendrick Ferris currently, Shane Hamman recently. Both come from TOTALLY different training backrounds, both seriously strong.[/quote]
An aside on Farris’s training…both he and Cara Heads both do regular sets of max 10s in the back squat. 10s! Shut down the internets! The sky is falling!
AFAIK Rippetoe doesn’t mean that low bar back squats should replace all the squat exercises in a weightlifter’s routine, but it would be a pretty good way to make the important muscles stronger that don’t get as much strain in the high bar squat or the front squat. He also suggests training the deadlift pretty heavy, but I’m not sure if this is as controversial as the low bar back squat. Do you oly lifters deadlift often?
How many of you guys have experience from low bar squatting while training for the olympic lifts, or are you just speculating what it would or wouldn’t accomplish?
I’m currently back squatting twice a week with the low bar position and front squatting twice a week, I’ll see how it works for powerlifting & olympic lifting.
I started training the olympic lifts seriously just a little while ago and currently my biggest problem is keeping my torso vertical in catching the cleans, but apparently that’s not very uncommon for people who go from powerlifting to olympic lifting. I’m planning to fix this with front squats and it seems to be working already. Surprisingly I don’t have the same problem in the snatch.
[quote]DOOM wrote:
AFAIK Rippetoe doesn’t mean that low bar back squats should replace all the squat exercises in a weightlifter’s routine, but it would be a pretty good way to make the important muscles stronger that don’t get as much strain in the high bar squat or the front squat. He also suggests training the deadlift pretty heavy, but I’m not sure if this is as controversial as the low bar back squat. Do you oly lifters deadlift often?
How many of you guys have experience from low bar squatting while training for the olympic lifts, or are you just speculating what it would or wouldn’t accomplish?
I’m currently back squatting twice a week with the low bar position and front squatting twice a week, I’ll see how it works for powerlifting & olympic lifting.
I started training the olympic lifts seriously just a little while ago and currently my biggest problem is keeping my torso vertical in catching the cleans, but apparently that’s not very uncommon for people who go from powerlifting to olympic lifting. I’m planning to fix this with front squats and it seems to be working already. Surprisingly I don’t have the same problem in the snatch.[/quote]
I never deadlift. My coach never deadlifted through all his years of training as an athlete. He has never had his athletes train the deadlift either. We do clean pulls which have a completely different dynamic than the deadlift when done correctly.
[quote]DOOM wrote:
AFAIK Rippetoe doesn’t mean that low bar back squats should replace all the squat exercises in a weightlifter’s routine, but it would be a pretty good way to make the important muscles stronger that don’t get as much strain in the high bar squat or the front squat. He also suggests training the deadlift pretty heavy, but I’m not sure if this is as controversial as the low bar back squat. Do you oly lifters deadlift often?
How many of you guys have experience from low bar squatting while training for the olympic lifts, or are you just speculating what it would or wouldn’t accomplish?
I’m currently back squatting twice a week with the low bar position and front squatting twice a week, I’ll see how it works for powerlifting & olympic lifting.
I started training the olympic lifts seriously just a little while ago and currently my biggest problem is keeping my torso vertical in catching the cleans, but apparently that’s not very uncommon for people who go from powerlifting to olympic lifting. I’m planning to fix this with front squats and it seems to be working already. Surprisingly I don’t have the same problem in the snatch.[/quote]
RDLs instead.
Conventional DL don’t carry over as well because you don’t have to keep your shoulder over well the bar, you don’t have your ENTIRE back straight, you don’t keep a big chest & scapulas retracted, all the while keeping the bar close to you.
In other words, a lot of direct upper back strength is involved in the RDL (when done correctly). Also, the RDL the same movement in the initial phase of the 2nd pull in both the snatch & clean. The conventional DL does not address that.
That’s pretty interesting actually, because that’s the way I deadlift… maybe not in the heaviest weights because they tend to make my upper back round a bit. It’s actually how Rippetoe suggests deadlift should go and he has a lengthy analysis of the deadlift online ( CrossFit ).
In short he tells people to have the barbell in middle of their foot, shins touching the barbell, back tightly arched in a neutral anatomical position with chest out and scapulaes over the barbell which leads to shoulders being slightly infront of the barbell, and the lift starts with straigthening of the knees as in clean before the hip angle makes your back extend after the barbell moves past the knees.
If I’m not completely mistaken, isn’t this very close to how clean would go untill the lifter uses hip kick and shrug.
There was a great series of articles online talking about what some European weightlifting teams used to build squatting strength… I cant find it now, but if I remember correctly there didnt seem to be much of a difference when it came to their clean and press whether front squat or back squat was used as the predominant exercise…
Was it high bar back squat or low bar back squat? I would imagine if it was high bar compared to front squat, the difference wouldn’t be as noticeable because both are done with a very vertical back.
Thanks to so many here. I was beginning to wonder how much dumber the lifting community could get…
I was lucky enough to train under two national coaches when our nat team had two guys in the world top six. Both trained Russian, and we back squatted and front squatted when we were told.
Our hips hammies back (posterior chain had not been heard then) were usually pretty tired by the time squats came round, and I do remember Bruces Walsh’s comments when I pulled some heavy deads one day (back in 72 I was a closet powerlifter) as least I provided the amusement that day.
I think it is great that Rippentoe has got people away from the machines, and the bench curl Monday syndrome, but his devotees should have some regard to history before offering their invaluable insight.
Louie Simmons did not invent the box squat (he never claimed he did) and real olympic lifting knowlege only comes from being a real olympic weightlifter. (ie you have competed and have put up respectable numbers)
When I was 18 I actually coached kids at my school (one went on to represent Australia in the Commonwealth games as a long jumper.)
I read all the same Health and Strength that Rippentoe read and listened to my coaches. I was an expert.
Now thirty years later having learned 100 times more, I leave the expert tag to others…
[quote]GMH454 wrote:
Thanks to so many here. I was beginning to wonder how much dumber the lifting community could get…
I was lucky enough to train under two national coaches when our nat team had two guys in the world top six. Both trained Russian, and we back squatted and front squatted when we were told.
Our hips hammies back (posterior chain had not been heard then) were usually pretty tired by the time squats came round, and I do remember Bruces Walsh’s comments when I pulled some heavy deads one day (back in 72 I was a closet powerlifter) as least I provided the amusement that day.
I think it is great that Rippentoe has got people away from the machines, and the bench curl Monday syndrome, but his devotees should have some regard to history before offering their invaluable insight.
Louie Simmons did not invent the box squat (he never claimed he did) and real olympic lifting knowlege only comes from being a real olympic weightlifter. (ie you have competed and have put up respectable numbers)
When I was 18 I actually coached kids at my school (one went on to represent Australia in the Commonwealth games as a long jumper.)
I read all the same Health and Strength that Rippentoe read and listened to my coaches. I was an expert.
Now thirty years later having learned 100 times more, I leave the expert tag to others…[/quote]
I’m not sure who do you mean but I’m not trying to be an expert. I find this topic interesting because it’s pretty close to my situation right now and discussing strength training methods fascinates me. Regarding to your comment about Rippetoe (no N there) devotees having a need of regard to history before them/we offer our insight… isn’t discussion, right after mind reading technology, generally a good way to gain knowledge?
More about deadlifting…
To my understanding if you are cleaning 150 kg, for example, and deadlifting 200 kg, wouldn’t your pulling strength increase if you increased your deadlift to 250 kg or higher?
While your explosiveness might suffer during a period when you’re training your deadlift enough hard, wouldn’t it still increase pretty nicely back up and beyond with the new found pulling strength you have in the reserves?
This is if if you’re deadlifting in a very similar style as you’re cleaning.
I’m not sure who do you mean but I’m not trying to be an expert. I find this topic interesting because it’s pretty close to my situation right now and discussing strength training methods fascinates me. Regarding to your comment about Rippetoe (no N there) devotees having a need of regard to history before them/we offer our insight… isn’t discussion, right after mind reading technology, generally a good way to gain knowledge?
More about deadlifting…
To my understanding if you are cleaning 150 kg, for example, and deadlifting 200 kg, wouldn’t your pulling strength increase if you increased your deadlift to 250 kg or higher?
While your explosiveness might suffer during a period when you’re training your deadlift enough hard, wouldn’t it still increase pretty nicely back up and beyond with the new found pulling strength you have in the reserves?
This is if if you’re deadlifting in a very similar style as you’re cleaning.[/quote]
It’d be nice if it worked that way eh…??
Explain this tho;
-There’s a guy in my gym who’s snatched 100kg pretty easily, yet only back squats 130-140 for sets of 5. I’d do 180-190 x5, but I’ve never power snatched more than 80ish kg.
-There’s a guy in the gym that has pulled 311kg, but only cleaned around 130-140kg. My best convo pull’s 200 3x5, but I’ve power cleaned 120kg (both done earlier in the year) and am confident I’ll full clean 140kg by year end.
So, what’s hte difference?? Technique. How long does it take to go from deadlifting 150kg to 250kg?? A long time. Would you be better focusing on strength or technique for that period of time?? It’s a no brainer for me anyway. I’ve far more strength than my technique allows me to use. ANd I would guess most people are the same.
Doom, conventional deadlifting and the first pull of a clean are not as similar as you think. If you more closely analyze the knee, hip, and back angles you can see they’re quite different. Granted there are some PL’ers whose deadlifts resemble clean pulls, but for the most part the technique isn’t the same.
Just like Hanley pointed out, pulling or squatting strength aren’t the only determining factors a successful OL. This is why you don’t see many OL’ers doing heavy deads at 200% above their clean max. Technique, speed, flexibility, coordination, etc. are equally important in the sport. Absolute strength gains carry over better for PL than OL.
Yes, I’m in the position at the moment where I’m squatting and deadlifting way more than I should for my current snatch and clean 'n jerk. Actually I’m still power snatching more than I squat snatch aswell.
That example was just meant for considering the difference between your clean initially and after a period of increasing your deadlift and thus increased strength. The nature of the example renders technique work and such irrelevant, because it was just an example how you become stronger in clean if you get stronger in deadlift when your pulling technique is a constant.
To further the example, if the guy’s technique and clean stays the same in long term, as in they might go back a bit during a period of heavy deadlifting, but increasing your deadlift won’t prevent you from going back to the same level as it was before, and the new strength you’ve gained during the period of deadlifting would make reaching past the initial clean easier. Is this not true?
Also, when you’re deadlifting, especially if you’re doing in a similar way you would clean, it won’t prevent you from getting technically better or stronger in clean if you’re training it, which is pretty obvious. When I started the olympic lifts I was power cleaning way more than I was squat cleaning but not anymore. My squat snatch is still lower than my power snatch, but my squat snatch has been increasing fast. I doubt it would increase as fast if I hadn’t gotten stronger with my previous lifting.
Its not just technique that is the difference. It is an explosive exercise, somewhat similar to saying, I squat 500 and you squat 250 yet you have a 36 inch vert and I only have a 30…
Additionally, if you are thinking of deadlifting and squatting compared to olympic lifts… they are really hard to put into ratio form simply because most people allow do max deadlifts with what technically is extremely shitty form,
I do the same myself, but its hard to compare that on any level to a clean because the nature of that exercise requires the form to be at a certain standard, in other words, a clean can only be done so poorly before you wont even be able to complete the lift…
If you keep your deadlift honest and rock solid with regard to form, you probably will notice the ratio being more where you want it, though then you wont be getting the benefit of the supramaximal deads…
Yep if you dead it should improve your clean. But why would you.
If you dead it eats your back and CNS. Deadlifters often train the move only once a week or less for a reason. It requires more rest.
Do an ol pulling move and you come back tomorrow and do more, you don’t wait thirty days till the next workout.
The moves are different. Granted you can do clean and snatch grip deads once you have your ol pulling technique down right, but why mess it up with something similar but not quite the same.
And then there is the subject of speed strength and explosive power’again to many they look the same, they are not.
And finally in the real world explosive athletes and coaches who have tried everything, and have been sucessful (sorry they are too busy to put up articles on T nation) have their athletes do OL variants more than they dead (and if they dead they do snatch grip deads, done very differently than discussed here)
So yes you can dead for your snatch but why ? There are much faster ways to improve an OL pull than deadlifting.
I agree, the difference between a clean and a deadlift is huge, almost like comparing a bodyweight squat to jumping, there is only going to be so much carryover…
Prime example… I was talking to a guy who I trust not to lie about this stuff and he told me he can deadlift around 300kg (he can, comp results show it), but would struggle to clean deadlift 150x2 with an arched upper and lower back (I think that was the figure).
Yes they should, because they were, are, and continue to be very ignorant. It is apparent from your comments that you have not read Starting Strength and never trained as an oly lifter with a coach.
[quote]
The same level of stimulation as the classical full squat? Does it build the same level of explosive strength of the legs, as used in the pulls, as the back squats that lifters have historically done, and do you have any supporting evidence for such a statement? [/quote]
Why wouldn’t it? Are you suggesting that high-bar back squats and front squats can be done “explosively” but that a full back squat with a lower back position cannot?
[quote] Because as far as I know literally every single top weightlifter from every country has used full front and/or back squats and none anything resembling a Rippetoe squat as a mainstay in their training. If this Rippetoe recommended training method made any sense at all, people would be using it by now!
mirroring the acute hip angle of the lifts… what is the relevance here?? Pulls mirror the hip angle of the lifts, in fact they are the same movement! [/quote]
Two responses. First, you–and many others posting on this thread–clearly do not know what a “Rippetoe squat” is and this is causing unnecessary confusion. There are, essentially, four types of squats. Front squats, high-bar narrow stance back squats (often known as “olympic back squats”), low-bar back squats (the squat Rippetoe endorses), and powerlifting squats. Due to the forward bar position in the front squat, the torso is very upright. The high-bar back squat, with the bar on top of the traps, has a torso that is less upright than the front squat, but still quite upright. This squat is very quad dominant.
Rippetoe advocates going to the full squat position (in olympic shoes, no less) as in the high-bar back squat, but sliding the bar down on the back so that it rests on the posterior deltoids. To balance the bar, this naturally creates additional forward lean of the torso. In that sense, the torso more closely matches the position of the the torso when executing a pull from the floor. The squat in this position draws more heavily from the low back, glutes, and hamstrings which–ta da!–are also heavily used in the pulls. Still, the knees do come forward over the toes in Rippetoe’s squat, just not to the same extent as the high-bar position.
The powerlifting squat is a totally different animal and many of you are confusing that with Rippetoe’s recommendation. That squat emphasizes a very extreme forward lean, a very wide stance, and is careful not to let the knees travel beyond the toes. The type of squat Westside preaches has the shins basically vertical. This is NOT what Rippetoe advocates.
Second, the pulls themselves are very technical lifts. It is hard to build strength to clean by cleaning. If you trained olympic lifts, you’d know that by and large the strength to do the classic lifts is built by doing limit exercises. There are charts (Dan John has one) which will tell you what you need to back squat in order to clean X amount of weight. With that in mind, why not do an assistance lift with the most carryover to the classic lifts?
[quote] Other assistance lifts like the Romanian Dead Lift and Olympic Good Morning can be used to mimic the exact motion of the pulls and train the explosive strength of specific parts of the movement.
Another huge factor is programming: Nearly all lifters train very frequently and do squats and assistance after the lifts/pulls. The glute and quad dominant full squat is the perfect assistance exercise and fits into programming easily. They are less CNS intensive than the squats Rippetoe recommends.
Doing a heavy squat that heavily emphasizes the posterior chain after pulls is dangerous and overtrains the muscles of both the upper back and traps and posterior chain that are heavily involved in the pulls. [/quote]
So let me get this straight, it would be too taxing (on the traps no less!) to do a lower-bar back squat after the classic lifts, but not a problem to do high-bar back squats and RDLs or good mornings? And are you freaking kidding me saying that the high-bar position is less intensive than the low bar position in the back squat? As if an oly lifter would go home, fried from a training session, and say, “I feel like shit. Shoulda done high bar instead of all those low bar squats.” Fucking hilarious.
Let me also say that this has been taken WAY too far out of context: Rippetoe is not saying not to front squat, do RDLs, do good mornings, or anything else. All he’s saying is that olympic lifters may derive an additional benefit from using a low-bar position with their back squats as opposed to the high-bar position. That’s it. Hardly an earth-shattering suggestion that warrants such emotion on your part.
Well, I don’t me to, like, step on the toes of some guy stumbling through “cleans” in his garage, but I take umbrage with you calling me a “Rippetoe fan” in a derogatory manner. I have done nothing other than read his books. I used to do high-bar back squats and front squats religiously when I trained as an olympic lifter. I tend to think that Rippetoe has a point and that a lower-bar position on my back squats might have been advantageous. All I was doing was stepping in and explaining that Rippetoe advocates the lower bar position specifically because it does a better job of targeting the muscles specifically used in the pull, which, again, is the reason oly lifters back squat in the first place.
The way you jumped on me suggests that you’ve got some serious issues with Rippetoe. It’s like he stole your girlfriend in high school or something.
One final thing: It keeps coming up that Rippetoe has not trained any successful lifters, but that is a limp-dicked way of criticizing his method. The dude’s gym is in Wichita Falls, Texas, for God’s sake. For you Euros, that means a small, dusty town in the middle of fucking nowhere USA. I doubt that the latest and greatest genetic wonder in weightlifting is walking through his door. He seems to do pretty well with what he has. And, again, he is very well respected by some big names in USA weightlifting who HAVE produced successful American lifters. (This, of course, is not to mention the way his book is regarded by big names on all sides of the industry.)
And the fact that the low-bar position has not caught on is also largely irrelevant. Those of you with experience weightlifting would know that it is a very traditional sport. Unlike powerlifting, weightlifting coaches tend to be set in their ways and largely unwilling to pay much attention to new ideas in training methods. Why should Bulgarian, Chinese, or Greek coaches change their ways because some guy in Texas has a new idea. They’re response would be the same as yours, “Who the fuck is this guy?” Not to mention that I doubt the bar position on back squats would have much effect on elite, international lifters. It may be a way for recreational lifters to get stronger faster, but the guys in the olympics are already maxed out in the strength department methinks.
Maybe I can’t speak for everyone, but heavy front squats torch the front of the core better than direct ab work for me personally. That core strength is vital for any olympic lift for safety and big weights from what i understand.