Front Squats?

[quote]eic wrote:

It is for this very reason that Coach Rippetoe has his oly lifters focus on the low-bar back squat as opposed to the high-bar back squat or front squat. [/quote]

What does Rippetoe know about coaching top level lifters tho?? Seriously. I know he’s done great work with beginners etc, but has he produced any good weightlifters?? Cos if he hasn’t, he’s not in a position to talk.

I hate to use the tried and trusted example, but look at the Bulgarians. Competition lifts, front squats and not a whole lot else!

[quote]Hanley wrote:
eic wrote:

It is for this very reason that Coach Rippetoe has his oly lifters focus on the low-bar back squat as opposed to the high-bar back squat or front squat.

What does Rippetoe know about coaching top level lifters tho?? Seriously. I know he’s done great work with beginners etc, but has he produced any good weightlifters?? Cos if he hasn’t, he’s not in a position to talk.

I hate to use the tried and trusted example, but look at the Bulgarians. Competition lifts, front squats and not a whole lot else![/quote]

X2

The posterior chain is overhyped…the quads are way more important than people give them credit in olympic lifting (and life). The fact that most people think the posterior chain is so important in o-lifting is proof that their technique is shit. Let me kind of rephrase this: the posterior chain is REALLY important, but the quads are too.

A proper first pull is not done with the back, but is more like a squat with the bar in the hands, as you want to ‘push’ into the floor, and stay over the bar so you can explode/extend with the hips/glutes/back (POSTERIOR CHAIN) when the bar hits your knees (second pull). Most people just rip the bar off the ground, basically doing some kind of fucked up explosive deadlift that resembles a clean/snatch.

A proper olympic back squat (and front squat) for that matter will strengthen the movement in this manner (i.e. the proper quad dominant squatting motion is very similar to the pull series of o-lifting; I don’t like to even call them pulls as this leads to most people ripping the bar with their arms/back; a lifting coach taught me to push my feet into the ground (like a squat) in order to extend and then use my back/hips/traps to finish the 2nd pull).

In this sense, although I would say both quads/hams are equally important (although given the importance of your back in o-lifting, I guess you could give the edge to the posterior chain), ignoring the quads is a big mistake. That being said a huge reason to front squat is to build strength in recovering from the clean, and obviously driving the jerk (although this is more of a half squat, which is part of the training of some lifters).

Generally, lifters use the front squat as a specific strengthening exercise and the back squat as a general strengthening exercise. When doing a lot of full cleans, lifters often forgoe the front squat to focus on the back squat, as the front squat has already ‘been done per se’. But doing Westside style hip-dominant squatting does not have the same carryover to the pull, clean/snatch recovery, or jerk drive. It is more of a general strengthener for the low back/ hams (post chain), and most lifters do a lot of RDLs, a more specific way to work this area.

Not to say that some westside style box squatting is totally absent from the training of o lifters (I know some guys who do it once a week, if only to build their back squat, which in turn carries over), but it isn’t really specific to the o lifts.

I agree. We should use low-bar parallel squats to shift the focus to the posterior chain. I mean, the pulls already hit the quads. Why would you use a squat with a full, movement-specific range of motion that fully emphasizes the explosive power of the quads… I mean they only explosively contract against a maximal load FOUR times in the clean and jerk!

And It’s not like weightlifters can do things like, RDLs, and good mornings, and other movement-specific posterior chain movements. Gotta watch out for that Hamstring imbalance.

Man, if only Rippetoe trained the top USA weightlifters, we’d be back on the podium in every weight class!

Seriously, has he ever trained an Olympic caliber lifter in his life? Has he ever actually tried Olympic lifting regularly while deadlifting and doing heavy parallel low-bar squats? It’s called a heavy Snatch pull. Entire back, hamstrings, quads, traps, hips, calves, abs, grip- completely torched. Enjoy.

I’m just so sick of this Rippetoe BS being rehashed over and over like it’s actually relevant to weightlifting or based on ANYTHING, and it’s always by people who don’t actually Olympic lift.

The reason why the front squat is hammered so fucking much is because the less energy you expend coming out of the bottom the more you will have for the jerk. It’s not that complicated…

[quote]Kulturkampf wrote:
. It would only make sense then, to make fun of me because I was trying to learn something new.[/quote]

of course it does.
glad you learned that early.

[quote]eic wrote:
From my brief time training as an oly lifter, I never saw a person clean a weight that they couldn’t stand up with.
[/quote]

Er…Kolecki? Or based on their performances in Beijing, the entire Polish team? Perepechenov couldn’t even stand up with 199!

When you clean you go into a front squat position, the grip etc. So it makes sense to master this way of squatting.

Why back squat if your sport is asking you to front squat?

Because it has good carryover to making your front squat stronger not to mention the strengthening benefits (ie back, core, etc.) for the parts of the lifts. As noted, its a coverall general training lift whereas the front squat is more specific.

[quote]Hanley wrote:
eic wrote:

It is for this very reason that Coach Rippetoe has his oly lifters focus on the low-bar back squat as opposed to the high-bar back squat or front squat.

What does Rippetoe know about coaching top level lifters tho?? Seriously. I know he’s done great work with beginners etc, but has he produced any good weightlifters?? Cos if he hasn’t, he’s not in a position to talk.

I hate to use the tried and trusted example, but look at the Bulgarians. Competition lifts, front squats and not a whole lot else![/quote]

I don’t think that you can test the merits of Rippetoe’s ideas by asking what kind of lifters he’s produced. I can’t really think of any successful US lifters off the top of my head anyway. And, again, I can’t think of any actual benefit from doing front squats that would not be obtained by doing low-bar back squats instead. Can you?

[quote]actionjeff wrote:
I agree. We should use low-bar parallel squats to shift the focus to the posterior chain. I mean, the pulls already hit the quads. Why would you use a squat with a full, movement-specific range of motion that fully emphasizes the explosive power of the quads… I mean they only explosively contract against a maximal load FOUR times in the clean and jerk!

And It’s not like weightlifters can do things like, RDLs, and good mornings, and other movement-specific posterior chain movements. Gotta watch out for that Hamstring imbalance.

Man, if only Rippetoe trained the top USA weightlifters, we’d be back on the podium in every weight class!

Seriously, has he ever trained an Olympic caliber lifter in his life? Has he ever actually tried Olympic lifting regularly while deadlifting and doing heavy parallel low-bar squats? It’s called a heavy Snatch pull. Entire back, hamstrings, quads, traps, hips, calves, abs, grip- completely torched. Enjoy.

I’m just so sick of this Rippetoe BS being rehashed over and over like it’s actually relevant to weightlifting or based on ANYTHING, and it’s always by people who don’t actually Olympic lift. [/quote]

Whoa! You got some issues, kid. I get the sense that you have not trained the olympic lifts in a serious capacity before, so your comments can largely be ignored. Regardless, the low-bar back squat that Rippetoe advocates is NOT the same squat style as that used for box squats by the Westside lifters.

It still allows plenty of stimulation for the quads, but permits a more acute hip angle, which more closely mirrors the hip angle for the classic lifts. This is pretty simple stuff, really.

And bashing Rippetoe would make sense if American lifters were dominating on the world stage by doing tons of them. But the fact is that American weightlifting is not dominating other countries.

That said, Mike Burgener has single handedly coached up a bunch of relatively successful lifters on the international stage and he is good friends with . . . you guessed it, Mark Rippetoe.

[quote]ninearms wrote:
eic wrote:
From my brief time training as an oly lifter, I never saw a person clean a weight that they couldn’t stand up with.

Er…Kolecki? Or based on their performances in Beijing, the entire Polish team? Perepechenov couldn’t even stand up with 199![/quote]

I meant personally. And the fact that you can list the few instances of this happening is proof of my point. Show me lifters failing to get out of the hole left and right and I’ll change my opinion on the matter. Until then, I agree that good accessory exercises would be RDLs and low-bar back squats, with occasional front squatting.

A Co-Worker of mine who can snatch over 300lbs (I use this only to legitimize his opinion) uses only back squats to build the strength necessary for the Clean and Jerk.

He says he knows several people that have severely injured their back using Front Squats as a staple exercise.

I personally like front squats, but then again I work with between 200 and 260 depending where on the spectrum I am targeting, deep, heavy doubles well over 3 might be a different story.

[quote]eic wrote:
actionjeff wrote:
I agree. We should use low-bar parallel squats to shift the focus to the posterior chain. I mean, the pulls already hit the quads. Why would you use a squat with a full, movement-specific range of motion that fully emphasizes the explosive power of the quads… I mean they only explosively contract against a maximal load FOUR times in the clean and jerk!

And It’s not like weightlifters can do things like, RDLs, and good mornings, and other movement-specific posterior chain movements. Gotta watch out for that Hamstring imbalance.

Man, if only Rippetoe trained the top USA weightlifters, we’d be back on the podium in every weight class!

Seriously, has he ever trained an Olympic caliber lifter in his life? Has he ever actually tried Olympic lifting regularly while deadlifting and doing heavy parallel low-bar squats? It’s called a heavy Snatch pull. Entire back, hamstrings, quads, traps, hips, calves, abs, grip- completely torched. Enjoy.

I’m just so sick of this Rippetoe BS being rehashed over and over like it’s actually relevant to weightlifting or based on ANYTHING, and it’s always by people who don’t actually Olympic lift.

Whoa! You got some issues, kid. I get the sense that you have not trained the olympic lifts in a serious capacity before, so your comments can largely be ignored. Regardless, the low-bar back squat that Rippetoe advocates is NOT the same squat style as that used for box squats by the Westside lifters.

It still allows plenty of stimulation for the quads, but permits a more acute hip angle, which more closely mirrors the hip angle for the classic lifts. This is pretty simple stuff, really.

And bashing Rippetoe would make sense if American lifters were dominating on the world stage by doing tons of them. But the fact is that American weightlifting is not dominating other countries.

That said, Mike Burgener has single handedly coached up a bunch of relatively successful lifters on the international
stage and he is good friends with . . . you guessed it, Mark Rippetoe. [/quote]

My comments should be ignored? Do you compete in a “serious level” in Olympic Weightlifting? How many people do you think are or ever have been competitive lifters on an international level on this forum?

There’s one thread on Olympic weightlifting that has longevity, and a handful of posters. Should they be the only people allowed to talk? Maybe you should think before you tell people they should “be ignored” because their opinions are different than yours. I’m seriously not trying to be a dick and I apologize if my OP came off that way, so let’s disagree civilly.

IMO your responses don’t address any of the issues of training the low-bar squat as an olympic lifter or fact as far as how the top lifters have historically trained.

"It still allows plenty of stimulation for the quads, but permits a more acute hip angle, which more closely mirrors the hip angle for the classic lifts. This is pretty simple stuff, really. "

The same level of stimulation as the classical full squat? Does it build the same level of explosive strength of the legs, as used in the pulls, as the back squats that lifters have historically done, and do you have any supporting evidence for such a statement?

Because as far as I know literally every single top weightlifter from every country has used full front and/or back squats and none anything resembling a Rippetoe squat as a mainstay in their training. If this Rippetoe recommended training method made any sense at all, people would be using it by now!

mirroring the acute hip angle of the lifts… what is the relevance here?? Pulls mirror the hip angle of the lifts, in fact they are the same movement!

Other assistance lifts like the Romanian Dead Lift and Olympic Good Morning can be used to mimic the exact motion of the pulls and train the explosive strength of specific parts of the movement.

Another huge factor is programming: Nearly all lifters train very frequently and do squats and assistance after the lifts/pulls. The glute and quad dominant full squat is the perfect assistance exercise and fits into programming easily. They are less CNS intensive than the squats Rippetoe recommends.

Doing a heavy squat that heavily emphasizes the posterior chain after pulls is dangerous and overtrains the muscles of both the upper back and traps and posterior chain that are heavily involved in the pulls.

I don’t mean to like, speak out of my place and start a shitstorm, and yeah I’m certainly not a veteran lifter (but I do O-lift), but I’m completely, 100% sure I’m right and I’m not gonna have some Rippetoe fan call me out and tell me my response should be “disregarded”

Its interesting to note, since powerlifters switched from an olympic style squat to the low bar westside power squatting style deadlifts have gone down. So why would an olympic lifter want to use a squatting style that will have a bad effect on pulls

[quote]aaron_lohan wrote:
Its interesting to note, since powerlifters switched from an olympic style squat to the low bar westside power squatting style deadlifts have gone down. So why would an olympic lifter want to use a squatting style that will have a bad effect on pulls[/quote]

When did pulls start going down? I guess relative to squat and bench they have, but that’s equipment for ya. Are you really trying to argue that low bar squatting decreases pulling ability?

The front squat is used by weightlifters to specifically train the catch in the clean position. It also enables the weightlifter to squat more often (there’s less weight used in the front squat, reducing recovery time).

Back squats are a more general strength enhancer, primarily used to strengthen the muscles for the first pull and recovery. The back squat is used for heavier weights, and therefore a greater overload is placed on the body.

This is common sense, why is this being debated? O, the greatest weightlifting coach ever, Abidjiev (spelling) of Bulgaria was a great believer in specifity. His favorite exercises were clean, snatch and front squat…

[quote]eic wrote:
Hanley wrote:
eic wrote:

It is for this very reason that Coach Rippetoe has his oly lifters focus on the low-bar back squat as opposed to the high-bar back squat or front squat.

What does Rippetoe know about coaching top level lifters tho?? Seriously. I know he’s done great work with beginners etc, but has he produced any good weightlifters?? Cos if he hasn’t, he’s not in a position to talk.

I hate to use the tried and trusted example, but look at the Bulgarians. Competition lifts, front squats and not a whole lot else!

I don’t think that you can test the merits of Rippetoe’s ideas by asking what kind of lifters he’s produced. I can’t really think of any successful US lifters off the top of my head anyway. And, again, I can’t think of any actual benefit from doing front squats that would not be obtained by doing low-bar back squats instead. Can you? [/quote]

Well if you can’t judge Rippetoe’s opinion by looking at the lifters he’s produced, how can you???

As for successful US lifters, Kendrick Ferris currently, Shane Hamman recently. Both come from TOTALLY different training backrounds, both seriously strong.

No one said anything about US vs. international lifters. The point made was that Rippetoe hasn’t produced any top level athletes in this country, so his credibility as an OL coach is limited.

While his theory is interesting, high bar back squats have been and is still used by other countries for decades and have proven successful. Rippetoe can’t argue that the tried and true method is less effective without any results to back it up- and currently he has none.

[quote]irishpowerhouse wrote:
When you clean you go into a front squat position, the grip etc. So it makes sense to master this way of squatting.

Why back squat if your sport is asking you to front squat? [/quote]

i agree