French Senate Approves Burqa Ban

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
1

Paris, France (CNN) – The French senate approved Tuesday a law banning any veils that cover the face – including the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women – making France the first European country to plan such a measure.

–

French people back the ban by a margin of more than four to one, the Pew Global Attitudes Project found in a survey earlier this year.

Thoughts? I’m conflicted on this.

I despise the cloth shackle… eh, niqab and burqa. When a woman wears a burqa in public, it doesn’t affect only THAT woman, it sends a message to every woman and girl in the vicinity.
Will this give social support to women in families/networks that impose the burka?

It’s tricky separating free will from cultural pressure. To me, that’s an argument for keeping the government out of it without compelling reasons to do so.

Something like a garment seems too fuzzy to be legislating.

I never feel sure that it’s a real choice by the wearer, though…

2

I am with you the women often have no choice in the matter but the government should keep out of it.

Celebrate Diversity! Yay!

3

I think that’s ballsy of France to do that, and while there will be LOTS of controversy about it, I support their decision.

4

What about muslim women who wear it voluntarily?

5

[quote]DixiesFinest wrote:
What about muslim women who wear it voluntarily?[/quote]

Think of it like ski masks…if some religion said 50% of its followers had to always wear ski masks (I realize not ALL Muslim women are forced to wear the face covering), couldn’t that be cause for concern, even if it was 100% voluntary? That’s just asking for all sorts of crimes and robberies, if it’s considered normal to walk the streets with faces concealed constantly.

6

[quote]Carl_ wrote:
Paris, France (CNN) – The French senate approved Tuesday a law banning any veils that cover the face – including the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women – making France the first European country to plan such a measure.

–

French people back the ban by a margin of more than four to one, the Pew Global Attitudes Project found in a survey earlier this year.

Thoughts? I’m conflicted on this.

I despise the cloth shackle… eh, niqab and burqa. When a woman wears a burqa in public, it doesn’t affect only THAT woman, it sends a message to every woman and girl in the vicinity.
Will this give social support to women in families/networks that impose the burka?

It’s tricky separating free will from cultural pressure. To me, that’s an argument for keeping the government out of it without compelling reasons to do so.

Something like a garment seems too fuzzy to be legislating.

I never feel sure that it’s a real choice by the wearer, though…[/quote]

I’m with you on this. I dunno whether i can justify the legislature, because as you said it is not really something the gov’t has a right to legislate as far as culture goes.

On the other hand, it is possible to consider it a national security risk because of identity concealment.

but to me it would be best if the only way it were banned were at voting booths or other places where identity was needed—ie drivers licenses or whatever. People need to know you’re who you register as. But i dunno if you can be compelled to not wear something.

Ski masks aren’t illegal…just shady.

7

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Carl_ wrote:
Paris, France (CNN) – The French senate approved Tuesday a law banning any veils that cover the face – including the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women – making France the first European country to plan such a measure.

–

French people back the ban by a margin of more than four to one, the Pew Global Attitudes Project found in a survey earlier this year.

Thoughts? I’m conflicted on this.

I despise the cloth shackle… eh, niqab and burqa. When a woman wears a burqa in public, it doesn’t affect only THAT woman, it sends a message to every woman and girl in the vicinity.
Will this give social support to women in families/networks that impose the burka?

It’s tricky separating free will from cultural pressure. To me, that’s an argument for keeping the government out of it without compelling reasons to do so.

Something like a garment seems too fuzzy to be legislating.

I never feel sure that it’s a real choice by the wearer, though…[/quote]

I’m with you on this. I dunno whether i can justify the legislature, because as you said it is not really something the gov’t has a right to legislate as far as culture goes.

On the other hand, it is possible to consider it a national security risk because of identity concealment.

but to me it would be best if the only way it were banned were at voting booths or other places where identity was needed—ie drivers licenses or whatever. People need to know you’re who you register as. But i dunno if you can be compelled to not wear something.

Ski masks aren’t illegal…just shady.
[/quote]

Like I was saying though, could you imagine if there was a significant percentage of people walking the streets with ski-masks on all the time?

Officer: “What did the person look like?”

Guy who was just stabbed in a crowd: “They had a burqa and dark robes…”

Officer: “Aww fuckit, not again”

8

Some background informations :

we (the French) are long time specialists of street riots. Because of this, our politic system made a pretty strong distinction between public and private space, public freedom and private freedom.
Here, Public space is definitely gouvernment business.

This law was initially writen to answer two distinct suggestions
the first one came from the gvt, who wanted to ban full mask in protests, in order- to identify violent agitators more easily.
the second one came from teachers, especially those who teach very young kids. They wanted to be sure the burqa wearing women at the door of the school were actually the children’s mother.
judges and banks had similar “identity check” problems too.

this law will apply to all kind of full masks in public space and public events (but it probably won’t be systematically enforced in the streets).
but it won’t apply to all kind of islamic veils.

last (but not least) we made it clear from the start that our views about immigration wasn’t the “melting pot” version americans tend to favor.
our obective has always be full cultural integration of immigrants, even if it imply some kind of westernization.
or, in the present case, a minimal “dress code” (no islamic full covering, no amazonian style nudity)

9

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Carl_ wrote:
Paris, France (CNN) – The French senate approved Tuesday a law banning any veils that cover the face – including the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women – making France the first European country to plan such a measure.

–

French people back the ban by a margin of more than four to one, the Pew Global Attitudes Project found in a survey earlier this year.

Thoughts? I’m conflicted on this.

I despise the cloth shackle… eh, niqab and burqa. When a woman wears a burqa in public, it doesn’t affect only THAT woman, it sends a message to every woman and girl in the vicinity.
Will this give social support to women in families/networks that impose the burka?

It’s tricky separating free will from cultural pressure. To me, that’s an argument for keeping the government out of it without compelling reasons to do so.

Something like a garment seems too fuzzy to be legislating.

I never feel sure that it’s a real choice by the wearer, though…[/quote]

I’m with you on this. I dunno whether i can justify the legislature, because as you said it is not really something the gov’t has a right to legislate as far as culture goes.

On the other hand, it is possible to consider it a national security risk because of identity concealment.

but to me it would be best if the only way it were banned were at voting booths or other places where identity was needed—ie drivers licenses or whatever. People need to know you’re who you register as. But i dunno if you can be compelled to not wear something.

Ski masks aren’t illegal…just shady.
[/quote]

Like I was saying though, could you imagine if there was a significant percentage of people walking the streets with ski-masks on all the time?

Officer: “What did the person look like?”

Guy who was just stabbed in a crowd: “They had a burqa and dark robes…”

Officer: “Aww fuckit, not again”[/quote]

That argument is a little bit… far fetched and contrived, dont you think?

Where are those bank robbing burqua wearing women?

10

[quote]Carl_ wrote:
Paris, France (CNN) – The French senate approved Tuesday a law banning any veils that cover the face – including the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women – making France the first European country to plan such a measure.

–

French people back the ban by a margin of more than four to one, the Pew Global Attitudes Project found in a survey earlier this year.

Thoughts? I’m conflicted on this.

I despise the cloth shackle… eh, niqab and burqa. When a woman wears a burqa in public, it doesn’t affect only THAT woman, it sends a message to every woman and girl in the vicinity.
Will this give social support to women in families/networks that impose the burka?

It’s tricky separating free will from cultural pressure. To me, that’s an argument for keeping the government out of it without compelling reasons to do so.

Something like a garment seems too fuzzy to be legislating.

I never feel sure that it’s a real choice by the wearer, though…[/quote]

Glad France is waking up to the fact that they are being INVADED by an alien anti-western ideology disguised as a religion.

11

In the Quran it does not tell you to cover your face anyway, and this is one of the ways the french government is trying to justify it, if the ban the headscarf (hijab) then its entirely a different matter.

12

I’ll leave it to the French to handle their business, its none of mine.

13

[quote]kamui wrote:
Some background informations :

we (the French) are long time specialists of street riots. Because of this, our politic system made a pretty strong distinction between public and private space, public freedom and private freedom.
Here, Public space is definitely gouvernment business.

This law was initially writen to answer two distinct suggestions
the first one came from the gvt, who wanted to ban full mask in protest and be able to identify violent agitators more easily.
the second one came from teachers, especially those who teach very young kids. They wanted to be sure the burqa wearing women at the door of the school were actually the children’s mother.
judges and banks had similar “identity check” problems too.

this law will apply to all kind of full mask in public space and public events (but it probably won’t be systematically enforced in the streets).
but it won’t apply to all kind of islamic veils.

last (but not least) we made it clear from the start that our views about immigration wasn’t the “melting pot” version americans tend to favor.
our obective has always be full cultural integration of immigrants, even if it imply some kind of westernization.
or, in the present case, a minimal “dress code” (no islamic full covering, no amazonian style nudity)[/quote]

Good points.

14

some additionnal background infos :

-we are not the first to adopt a burqa ban.
Belgium already did it.

-the article linked by the OP evoke our law forbidding islamic veil in school.
this apply to all islamic veils (including hijab, niqab, tchador, etc). but it does not apply in University, only in schools.
this law ban all visible religious symbols, including christian, jewish ou hinduist ones. (active religious proselytism has always been forbidden in French schools, since 1905).

-there is 4 millions muslims in France. roughly 10% of the population.
and there is less than 2000 burqa wearing women. (367 is the official number stated by our “Ministere de l’Interieur”).

btw, those are not my points, just the story behind this law. as i said : background informations.

my personnal opinion on this matter is that our gvt is just trying to look ‘proactive’ about radical islamism.
in other words : “show must go on”

15

“An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last.”

  • Winston Churchill

From a French patriot, Brigette Bardot:

"In a book she wrote in 1999, called “Le Carré de Pluton” (Pluto’s Square), in a section in entitled, Open Letter to My Lost France, Bardot writes: “…my country, France, my homeland, my land is again invaded by an overpopulation of foreigners, especially Muslims.” For this comment, a French court fined her 30,000 francs in June 2000. She had previously been fined in 1997 for the original publication of this open letter in Le Figaro and again 1998 for making similar remarks.

In her 2003 book, Un cri dans le silence (“A Scream in the Silence”), she warned of an â??Islamicization of Franceâ??, and said of Muslim immigration: Over the last twenty years, we have given in to a subterranean, dangerous, and uncontrolled infiltration, which not only resists adjusting to our laws and customs but which will, as the years pass, attempt to impose its own."

16

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Carl_ wrote:
Paris, France (CNN) – The French senate approved Tuesday a law banning any veils that cover the face – including the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women – making France the first European country to plan such a measure.

–

French people back the ban by a margin of more than four to one, the Pew Global Attitudes Project found in a survey earlier this year.

Thoughts? I’m conflicted on this.

I despise the cloth shackle… eh, niqab and burqa. When a woman wears a burqa in public, it doesn’t affect only THAT woman, it sends a message to every woman and girl in the vicinity.
Will this give social support to women in families/networks that impose the burka?

It’s tricky separating free will from cultural pressure. To me, that’s an argument for keeping the government out of it without compelling reasons to do so.

Something like a garment seems too fuzzy to be legislating.

I never feel sure that it’s a real choice by the wearer, though…[/quote]

I’m with you on this. I dunno whether i can justify the legislature, because as you said it is not really something the gov’t has a right to legislate as far as culture goes.

On the other hand, it is possible to consider it a national security risk because of identity concealment.

but to me it would be best if the only way it were banned were at voting booths or other places where identity was needed—ie drivers licenses or whatever. People need to know you’re who you register as. But i dunno if you can be compelled to not wear something.

Ski masks aren’t illegal…just shady.
[/quote]

Like I was saying though, could you imagine if there was a significant percentage of people walking the streets with ski-masks on all the time?

Officer: “What did the person look like?”

Guy who was just stabbed in a crowd: “They had a burqa and dark robes…”

Officer: “Aww fuckit, not again”[/quote]

That argument is a little bit… far fetched and contrived, dont you think?

Where are those bank robbing burqua wearing women?
[/quote]

Actually, the points the guy from France in this thread brought up were much better. Banks, mothers picking up kids from school, etc. And as he said, it’s a ban on ALL headgear covering the entire face. Fair enough, I say.

17

I HATE agreeing with the French.

18

This vote and the bomb threat at the Awful Tower, (SP?)
Coincidence?

19

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Carl_ wrote:
Paris, France (CNN) – The French senate approved Tuesday a law banning any veils that cover the face – including the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women – making France the first European country to plan such a measure.

–

French people back the ban by a margin of more than four to one, the Pew Global Attitudes Project found in a survey earlier this year.

Thoughts? I’m conflicted on this.

I despise the cloth shackle… eh, niqab and burqa. When a woman wears a burqa in public, it doesn’t affect only THAT woman, it sends a message to every woman and girl in the vicinity.
Will this give social support to women in families/networks that impose the burka?

It’s tricky separating free will from cultural pressure. To me, that’s an argument for keeping the government out of it without compelling reasons to do so.

Something like a garment seems too fuzzy to be legislating.

I never feel sure that it’s a real choice by the wearer, though…[/quote]

I’m with you on this. I dunno whether i can justify the legislature, because as you said it is not really something the gov’t has a right to legislate as far as culture goes.

On the other hand, it is possible to consider it a national security risk because of identity concealment.

but to me it would be best if the only way it were banned were at voting booths or other places where identity was needed—ie drivers licenses or whatever. People need to know you’re who you register as. But i dunno if you can be compelled to not wear something.

Ski masks aren’t illegal…just shady.
[/quote]

Like I was saying though, could you imagine if there was a significant percentage of people walking the streets with ski-masks on all the time?

Officer: “What did the person look like?”

Guy who was just stabbed in a crowd: “They had a burqa and dark robes…”

Officer: “Aww fuckit, not again”[/quote]

That argument is a little bit… far fetched and contrived, dont you think?

Where are those bank robbing burqua wearing women?
[/quote]

Actually, the points the guy from France in this thread brought up were much better. Banks, mothers picking up kids from school, etc. And as he said, it’s a ban on ALL headgear covering the entire face. Fair enough, I say. [/quote]

Sure.

What we have here is quite literally a fashion police.

I want monarchies back, this whole democracy thing no longer works for me.

20

[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
This vote and the bomb threat at the Awful Tower, (SP?)
Coincidence?[/quote]

well, yes and no.

the Eiffel Tower aera has been evacuated following a phone call.
these false alerts are pretty common since 2001, and usually they don’t lead to such evacuations.

this time the calls have been considered more seriously because of the final passing of the burqa ban, and because of the 9/11 anniversary.
in this context, the whole territory was already on “red alert”, and some aeras (like the Eiffel Tower) were put on “scarlet” level.