[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Because Hughes is an arrogant fuck…[/quote]
I’ve met them both and had the opportunity to speak with both at length, actually trained with Royce.
I can tell you this, there is no lack of confidence on the side of either man!
I think when you have a tremendous amount of confidence it comes off as arrogance. It’s really a fine line.
I also think that most champions display this type of “confidence.” And to a large extent that’s what gets them where they are!
GSP is up and coming; maybe there now, not quite there yet when he was armbarred. But he just continues to improve and his attitude is light years ahead of Hughes - ever wonder if that is the reason GSP continues to improve so quickly? However, we agree to disagree - the talent level just doesn’t exite me. I’m not implying there aren’t decent fights - I’m stating I’m not impressed with the skill levels of the guys fighting. And let’s not even discuss the “wannabes” in the show who actually want to make a living at this. It’s a joke. I’m a former B-ball player that has had NBA tryouts. It would be as if I showed up at free agent campt out of shape. You actually have guys coming on this how, talking about dreams and sacrafice, and their NOT EVEN IN SHAPE! But I digress… I’m sick and tired of hearing about how Hughes is improving on the ground - yes, improving but he is by no means an expert. And then consider his “ok” hands, and what the hell do you have? A guy that does just what you said he did; “manhandle” people. Well, when the talent level is high, fighters don’t get “manhandled” unless the skill leve is that disparate - and we’ve already concluded that Hughes has no one skill, other than wrestling, where one could consider him an “expert”. So what is left to conclude? Mediocre opponents. Not all of them mind you - just most of them.
Lemme give you an example; I’m a trained fighter MMA style I guess could describe it best, but I’m not limited to what you would typically consider “MMA” or “sport fighting”. I’ve worked personal security and, to get out of the house on the weekends years ago, I’d work nightclub/bar security. The reason I tell you this is b/c in spite of my skills as a fighter, I have “manhandled” many a person - in a professional setting and in personal fights. In fact, I’ve never used any martial art skill to eject a patron from a club/bar. I’ve always just manhandled them. I can manhandle people b/c, like hughes, my relative strength is very high compared to whomever I was manhandling. I’m a competitive PL. In fact, one of my good friends jokes that every fight (street fights) he’s seen me have I just manhandle the guy without really throwing blows - he thinks its b/c I have a good heart. Well, he’s only partially right - the real reason I’m not throwing strikes is that I really don’t want to go to prison for hurting someone. Anyway, I have NEVER just manhandled another skilled fighter. A good friend of mine is a ju-jitsu guy that used to train with the Gracie’s. Very very good on the ground and about my size. I’m stronger though. Every time we rolled and I tried to use my strength, I got in trouble and got my ass handed to me. I have never sparred or been in a real fight with a skilled fighter where I just “manhandled” them. I see Hughes manhandling alot of people and I don’t see skill behind it. I’m just not impressed with his opponents.
And again, I just think he’s too f’n arrogant. However, I’ll say this; even though Gracie IS past his prime - if he beats Gracie at his own game, he will have earned my respect and I’ll admit my error judging his skills. But I don’t think that will happen - even if Hughes wins. Anything can happen on the way to a Hughes win but it won’t be a Hughes submission. So this debate might still wage on. Like you, I’d like to see him step outside of the UFC and compete. And then maybe we can take the fair measure of the man.
But remember this; MMA money is fairly limited compared to other sports. It is just not attacting the top athletes and maybe not even the most skilled fighters. And until it does, competition will be watered down (relatively). Imagine a boxer with world class boxing skills learning submissions, etc at an early point in his career and what type of fighter he’d be? Won’t happen though. Why? Boxing money is so much bigger. Someone said it in another post and they were right - imagine if the Jevon Kearse’ of the world were attracted to MMA at an early age? Won’t happen until the MMA money here gets BIG. Six figure contract? Are you kidding me? Whats that? A three year contract for $105k? C’mon. This is why the competition is relatively mediocre. It’s a tough tough way to make a living to begin with; now consider the relatively low pay.
[quote]eqpfunk wrote:
I’m going to have to disagree about the UFC being marginal especially in the welterweight division (Heavyweight, yes totally marginal. Middleweight, maybe.). I would argue that’s where the UFC has by far the most depth. And you don’t think Hughes pulling an armbar on GSP was impressive? GSP not impressive? You have high standards my friend. Sakurai and Carlos Newton are international talent as well that Hughes esentially man handled. I’d love to see Pride start a 170 division and see Hughes go to a grand prix there. Doubt that will happen anytime soon though.
I think the only way Hughes will get any respect from the naysayers is by defeating Royce, GSP again, and defeating Penn (who in my opinion is on a slide). Maybe throw Parisyan in there for good measure too just to clean out the division of any and all contenders.
[/quote]
eqpfunk, you have a good read on that division and Hughes rightful place in it!
Hughes has tapped out, or defeated in some other way, some very outstanding fighters. And some of them twice!
If you look at him closely he gets better every few months. He’s not a guy to rest on his past accomplishments.
One way Hughes gets the respect that he deserves is to beat BJ Penn. BJ did a great job against him and deserved to win that night.
If he beats BJ he is unquestionably the king of the welterweight division with no questions asked!
[quote]ZEB wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
Because Hughes is an arrogant fuck…
I’ve met them both and had the opportunity to speak with both at length, actually trained with Royce.
I can tell you this, there is no lack of confidence on the side of either man!
I think when you have a tremendous amount of confidence it comes off as arrogance. It’s really a fine line.
I also think that most champions display this type of “confidence.” And to a large extent that’s what gets them where they are!
[/quote]
Not to nitpick Zeb, but I could use this argument against your previous statements about Penn’s perceived arrogance.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
We have one week to decide who is going to win the match-up between Welter weight champ Matt Hughes and accomplished Jiu-Jitsu fighter and UFC legend Royce Gracie.
I have been very vocal in my belief that this could very well be a mismatch. Matt Hughes is at the peak of his game. While Royce Gracie has not set foot in the Octagon in perhaps 9 years. He has had other fights, none all that impressive.
It’s my contention that even during Gracies hey day of the mid 90’s, he won so many fights because his opponents did not know what he knew. That is no longer an advantage for him.
While Gracie is a very highly skilled Jiu-Jitsu practioner, Matt Hughes at least understands that game and has won many of his fights by tap out using submission moves. This may nullify Gracies ground game.
If I were in Gracies corner I would have encouraged my fighter to effectively learn hot to strike with his hands and feet. He would then be able to use his height and reach advantage in a “boxing fashion” forcing the shorter less gifted puncher Hughes into an awkward position.
Did Gracie train to “kickbox” or is he simply going to bring his Jiu-Jitsu “A” game to the Octagon?
Either way, Gracie is going to have to overcome more than just Hughes superior strength, Octagon savy and outstanding wrestling skills. Hughes is a seasoned veteran when it comes to submission at this point. And while the great BJ Penn taught him a lesson a short while ago, Hughes has learned from that experience and will be ready for Gracie style Jiu-Jitsu.
Unless Gracie comes to the game with some new tricks, such as a solid striking game, I think we can expect a referee stopage sometime in the second round.
How do the rest of you feel?
[/quote]
You want Gracie to kickbox with hughes? You have to be nuts. That is beyond question the worst anlaysis of this fight…ever.
The fight is a mismatch, but the only way Gracie wins is if he can pull a sub out of his ass. Thinking Gracie should stand up and slug is just stupid. You play to your strengths…
I have thought about this alot. Initially it makes sense. Though I think there are a few holes in this argument.
I don’t agree that the most skilled fighters are not fighting. Maybe not in the UFC. But the best bjj fighters do fight in Pride, Arona, Nogueira brothers, Bustamante, etc. Sambo, Fedor, three time World Combat Sambo champion. Olympic caliber wrestlers. K-1 kickboxers.
Boxing money isn’t good for everybody, only the guys at the top. Having world class boxing skills doesn’t mean you would be a great champion.
The money at the top in boxing is great, why don’t more heavyweight athletes try to become heavyweight champion of the world. The sport is tough. Being strong and quick are great, but it isn’t nearly enough. For every great physical specimen like Tyson and Roy Jones jr. there is a Bernard Hopkins and James Toney.
Alot of people just cannot fight, they don’t have it in them. Andthat is normal. Just because you are a freak athlete doesn’t change that.
Guys like Bob Sapp, he shouldn’t fight. He can. But with tears in his eyes and showing his back it is a disgrace. I think even if mma money was the same as american football more people would still choose to play football.
Top guys in Pride make decent money, 500,000-2,000,000dollars a fight.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
fedor_is_king wrote:
“The young champion on top of his game ALWAYS beats the washed up old former champion in boxing.”
How about Foreman beating Moorer
As for Gracie doing it i’m gonna go out on a limb and agree with whoever said he’ll frustrate matt and submit him when he makes a mistake. But even if matt wins theres no way he’s beating GSP.
Moorer was a joke and he was not on top of his game.
Hughes is at the peak of his abilities and is in great shape.[/quote]
dude , leonard vs. hagler.
[quote]otoko wrote:
But remember this; MMA money is fairly limited compared to other sports. It is just not attacting the top athletes and maybe not even the most skilled fighters. And until it does, competition will be watered down (relatively). Imagine a boxer with world class boxing skills learning submissions, etc at an early point in his career and what type of fighter he’d be? Won’t happen though. Why? Boxing money is so much bigger. Someone said it in another post and they were right - imagine if the Jevon Kearse’ of the world were attracted to MMA at an early age? Won’t happen until the MMA money here gets BIG. Six figure contract? Are you kidding me? Whats that? A three year contract for $105k? C’mon. This is why the competition is relatively mediocre. It’s a tough tough way to make a living to begin with; now consider the relatively low pay.
I have thought about this alot. Initially it makes sense. Though I think there are a few holes in this argument.
I don’t agree that the most skilled fighters are not fighting. Maybe not in the UFC. But the best bjj fighters do fight in Pride, Arona, Nogueira brothers, Bustamante, etc. Sambo, Fedor, three time World Combat Sambo champion. Olympic caliber wrestlers. K-1 kickboxers.
Boxing money isn’t good for everybody, only the guys at the top. Having world class boxing skills doesn’t mean you would be a great champion.
The money at the top in boxing is great, why don’t more heavyweight athletes try to become heavyweight champion of the world. The sport is tough. Being strong and quick are great, but it isn’t nearly enough. For every great physical specimen like Tyson and Roy Jones jr. there is a Bernard Hopkins and James Toney.
Alot of people just cannot fight, they don’t have it in them. Andthat is normal. Just because you are a freak athlete doesn’t change that.
Guys like Bob Sapp, he shouldn’t fight. He can. But with tears in his eyes and showing his back it is a disgrace. I think even if mma money was the same as american football more people would still choose to play football.
Top guys in Pride make decent money, 500,000-2,000,000dollars a fight. [/quote]
I definitely agree that the argument that MMA doesn’t have world class athletes, has a lot of holes in it. So olympic and NCAA champion greco roman and freestyle wrestlers and olympic gold medal judo fighters aren’t world class atheletes?
You can’t discount the athletes currently competing because the Jevon Kearse’s and Brian Urlacher’s of the world are playing football instead. And the simple fact is those guys probably wouldn’t be fighting anyway even if it paid the same as footbll. Not every athlete is a fighter and not every fighter is an athlete. In Brazil you have either a choice of Jiu Jitsu/Valetudo or Soccer. The guys fighting from Brazil are world class as are the guys who are beating them.
[quote]eqpfunk wrote:
otoko wrote:
But remember this; MMA money is fairly limited compared to other sports. It is just not attacting the top athletes and maybe not even the most skilled fighters. And until it does, competition will be watered down (relatively). Imagine a boxer with world class boxing skills learning submissions, etc at an early point in his career and what type of fighter he’d be? Won’t happen though. Why? Boxing money is so much bigger. Someone said it in another post and they were right - imagine if the Jevon Kearse’ of the world were attracted to MMA at an early age? Won’t happen until the MMA money here gets BIG. Six figure contract? Are you kidding me? Whats that? A three year contract for $105k? C’mon. This is why the competition is relatively mediocre. It’s a tough tough way to make a living to begin with; now consider the relatively low pay.
I have thought about this alot. Initially it makes sense. Though I think there are a few holes in this argument.
I don’t agree that the most skilled fighters are not fighting. Maybe not in the UFC. But the best bjj fighters do fight in Pride, Arona, Nogueira brothers, Bustamante, etc. Sambo, Fedor, three time World Combat Sambo champion. Olympic caliber wrestlers. K-1 kickboxers.
Boxing money isn’t good for everybody, only the guys at the top. Having world class boxing skills doesn’t mean you would be a great champion.
The money at the top in boxing is great, why don’t more heavyweight athletes try to become heavyweight champion of the world. The sport is tough. Being strong and quick are great, but it isn’t nearly enough. For every great physical specimen like Tyson and Roy Jones jr. there is a Bernard Hopkins and James Toney.
Alot of people just cannot fight, they don’t have it in them. Andthat is normal. Just because you are a freak athlete doesn’t change that.
Guys like Bob Sapp, he shouldn’t fight. He can. But with tears in his eyes and showing his back it is a disgrace. I think even if mma money was the same as american football more people would still choose to play football.
Top guys in Pride make decent money, 500,000-2,000,000dollars a fight.
I definitely agree that the argument that MMA doesn’t have world class athletes, has a lot of holes in it. So olympic and NCAA champion greco roman and freestyle wrestlers and olympic gold medal judo fighters aren’t world class atheletes?
You can’t discount the athletes currently competing because the Jevon Kearse’s and Brian Urlacher’s of the world are playing football instead. And the simple fact is those guys probably wouldn’t be fighting anyway even if it paid the same as footbll. Not every athlete is a fighter and not every fighter is an athlete. In Brazil you have either a choice of Jiu Jitsu/Valetudo or Soccer. The guys fighting from Brazil are world class as are the guys who are beating them.
[/quote]
I didn’t write the first paragraph, I was quoting it. I was disagreeing with the person who wrote that mma doesn’t have great athletes.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
But remember this; MMA money is fairly limited compared to other sports. It is just not attacting the top athletes and maybe not even the most skilled fighters. And until it does, competition will be watered down (relatively). Imagine a boxer with world class boxing skills learning submissions, etc at an early point in his career and what type of fighter he’d be? Won’t happen though. Why? Boxing money is so much bigger. Someone said it in another post and they were right - imagine if the Jevon Kearse’ of the world were attracted to MMA at an early age? Won’t happen until the MMA money here gets BIG. Six figure contract? Are you kidding me? Whats that? A three year contract for $105k? C’mon. This is why the competition is relatively mediocre. It’s a tough tough way to make a living to begin with; now consider the relatively low pay. [/quote]
Here it is
[quote]otoko wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
But remember this; MMA money is fairly limited compared to other sports. It is just not attacting the top athletes and maybe not even the most skilled fighters. And until it does, competition will be watered down (relatively). Imagine a boxer with world class boxing skills learning submissions, etc at an early point in his career and what type of fighter he’d be? Won’t happen though. Why? Boxing money is so much bigger. Someone said it in another post and they were right - imagine if the Jevon Kearse’ of the world were attracted to MMA at an early age? Won’t happen until the MMA money here gets BIG. Six figure contract? Are you kidding me? Whats that? A three year contract for $105k? C’mon. This is why the competition is relatively mediocre. It’s a tough tough way to make a living to begin with; now consider the relatively low pay.
Here it is[/quote]
LOL, I was agreeing with you otoko 
I was addressing bodyguard’s statement about the quality of fighters in my previous post. sorry about the confusion.
[quote]eqpfunk wrote:
otoko wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
But remember this; MMA money is fairly limited compared to other sports. It is just not attacting the top athletes and maybe not even the most skilled fighters. And until it does, competition will be watered down (relatively). Imagine a boxer with world class boxing skills learning submissions, etc at an early point in his career and what type of fighter he’d be? Won’t happen though. Why? Boxing money is so much bigger. Someone said it in another post and they were right - imagine if the Jevon Kearse’ of the world were attracted to MMA at an early age? Won’t happen until the MMA money here gets BIG. Six figure contract? Are you kidding me? Whats that? A three year contract for $105k? C’mon. This is why the competition is relatively mediocre. It’s a tough tough way to make a living to begin with; now consider the relatively low pay.
Here it is
LOL, I was agreeing with you otoko
I was addressing bodyguard’s statement about the quality of fighters in my previous post. sorry about the confusion.[/quote]
Oh! Yeah I was confused. No problem then.
hey y’all check out these links…
those would be recent compared to the highlight show of the first UFC’s Gracie dominated.
doesn’t look to impressive to me. you guys remember the Liddell vs Horn fight where chuck kept knocking him down and Horn just lying on his back wanting to get mounted? yeah, i can see Hughes doing that to Royce.
Or even see Hughes submitting him. I’d just love to see Gracie get his ass handed to him cos even though he says he built the house, guess what, the UFC has graduated from a shack to an actual house and evolution of the sport is prevalent.
Someone mentioned money…i don’t understand why the fighters are getting paid so little. Figure there has to be at least 1 million viewers of a paperview at what, $39.99 to get it? that’s roughly 40 million dollars times how many paperviews per year and they pay what to their fighters? in the next couple years the top end fighters ought to be pulling down 7 figs a year.
Hughes is supposed to be gettin paid roughly 100k-200k
while gracie is gettin about 400k
rich franklin got 27k for his fight against loiseau, and is now out for god knows how long.
[quote]Rookie21 wrote:
Hughes is supposed to be gettin paid roughly 100k-200k
while gracie is gettin about 400k
rich franklin got 27k for his fight against loiseau, and is now out for god knows how long.[/quote]
They pull in more on top of that as they get a cut of the PPV (I don’t know about Franklin, he kinda got fucked on his contract). I read that after his fight pay plus win bonus, plus PPVs, Chuck Liddell pulled in around a million for his last fight w/Coteur(sp?). Plus they’re sponsored by Xyience, Tapout, etc… Most of the top level guys pull in close to 7 figures if not more.
[quote]BSims wrote:
hey y’all check out these links…
those would be recent compared to the highlight show of the first UFC’s Gracie dominated.
doesn’t look to impressive to me. you guys remember the Liddell vs Horn fight where chuck kept knocking him down and Horn just lying on his back wanting to get mounted? yeah, i can see Hughes doing that to Royce.
Or even see Hughes submitting him. I’d just love to see Gracie get his ass handed to him cos even though he says he built the house, guess what, the UFC has graduated from a shack to an actual house and evolution of the sport is prevalent.
[/quote]
How many guys has Hughes knocked out with his standup game?
Right, now quit bringing it up as if Royce is going to have trouble standing with Hughes…the problem arises with takedowns, Hughes’ athleticism, and ground and pound or lay and pray depending on how good Royce’s guard actually is.
[quote]eqpfunk wrote:
Rookie21 wrote:
Hughes is supposed to be gettin paid roughly 100k-200k
while gracie is gettin about 400k
rich franklin got 27k for his fight against loiseau, and is now out for god knows how long.
They pull in more on top of that as they get a cut of the PPV (I don’t know about Franklin, he kinda got fucked on his contract). I read that after his fight pay plus win bonus, plus PPVs, Chuck Liddell pulled in around a million for his last fight w/Coteur(sp?). Plus they’re sponsored by Xyience, Tapout, etc… Most of the top level guys pull in close to 7 figures if not more.[/quote]
This is not true, most of the top guys are not pulling 7 figures; 6 figures for the top guys and 7 for Liddell, but less for middle-of-the-road to lower level guys.
Couture and Liddell were exceptions in their matches due to the fact that they took a portion of the gate and PPV putting their salary at around a mil for their last fight, that is not common practice and does not carry over to the rest of the fighters.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
ZEB wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
Because Hughes is an arrogant fuck…
I’ve met them both and had the opportunity to speak with both at length, actually trained with Royce.
I can tell you this, there is no lack of confidence on the side of either man!
I think when you have a tremendous amount of confidence it comes off as arrogance. It’s really a fine line.
I also think that most champions display this type of “confidence.” And to a large extent that’s what gets them where they are!
Not to nitpick Zeb, but I could use this argument against your previous statements about Penn’s perceived arrogance.[/quote]
I don’t mind if you use that, you would be correct.
When there is “over confidnece” then you have the possibility of under training (such as what BJ Penn apparently did). And you have the possibility of making mistakes (such as what Hughes did against Penn) thinking that nothing can happen “I am great.”
It’s a balancing act that must be difficult. I wouldn’t know personally as I am not great at anything…I’m not even great at writing clear posts, as I have proven over and over…
[quote]Valor wrote:
You want Gracie to kickbox with hughes? You have to be nuts. That is beyond question the worst anlaysis of this fight…ever.
The fight is a mismatch, but the only way Gracie wins is if he can pull a sub out of his ass. Thinking Gracie should stand up and slug is just stupid. You play to your strengths…
[/quote]
You don’t play to those strength when they are also the other guys strengths!
My point was this: It will go to the ground anyway. We have two men who are most comfortable on the ground. But prior to it going on the ground, or when both fighters are on their feet Gracie could indeed rack up some points by striking with Hughes. While the punches and kicks may not stop Hughes they will score with the judges. And it will impress everyone including the judges that Gracie is actually striking. It will show that he has advanced in his thinking and training.
In addition to this:
Gracie is 6’ 1" with very long arms. Hughes is only 5’ 9". Height and reach favor Gracie by a wide margin. Gracie can use that advantage on his feet by striking. Since we know that Hughes weakest point is striking why not try this strategy?
Anyway…there is a more in depth explanation for you.
[quote]slimjim wrote:
BSims wrote:
hey y’all check out these links…
those would be recent compared to the highlight show of the first UFC’s Gracie dominated.
doesn’t look to impressive to me. you guys remember the Liddell vs Horn fight where chuck kept knocking him down and Horn just lying on his back wanting to get mounted? yeah, i can see Hughes doing that to Royce.
Or even see Hughes submitting him. I’d just love to see Gracie get his ass handed to him cos even though he says he built the house, guess what, the UFC has graduated from a shack to an actual house and evolution of the sport is prevalent.
How many guys has Hughes knocked out with his standup game?
Right, now quit bringing it up as if Royce is going to have trouble standing with Hughes…the problem arises with takedowns, Hughes’ athleticism, and ground and pound or lay and pray depending on how good Royce’s guard actually is.[/quote]
Absolutely!