Final Hughes Vs. Gracie Thread?

Training Powerlifting
41

[quote]A-Town Crown wrote:

When they announced this fight Hughes should’ve got down on his hands and knees and bowed before Royce for allowing Him to be able to wear that belt (that he doesn’t deserve)here in the states. [/quote]

Explain this statement. How does Hughes not deserve the belt he holds? BJ Penn flaked for whatever reason (money I guess which he doesn’t even need since he’s like the Paris Hilton of MMA) and Hughes executed a picture perfect armbar on GSP to win the belt.

Why does Hughes not deserve the belt? Because he’s lost once out of his last 18 fights? Why should he kiss Royce’s ass? Royce has beaten 2 cans in the past 10 years. Thats it.

Every fighter gets beaten and any fighter that hasn’t, hasn’t fought anyone worth fighting. (There’s one exception to this rule of course: Fedor. )

And look at what Hughes has done since his loss to Penn. He’s won his last 3 fights by armbar, kimura, and rnc. It’s obvious he’s been practicing his jiu jitsu. When Penn and Hughes meet again, there’s no way penn gets the easy submission.

42

[quote]fedor_is_king wrote:
“The young champion on top of his game ALWAYS beats the washed up old former champion in boxing.”

How about Foreman beating Moorer

As for Gracie doing it i’m gonna go out on a limb and agree with whoever said he’ll frustrate matt and submit him when he makes a mistake. But even if matt wins theres no way he’s beating GSP.
[/quote]

Moorer was a joke and he was not on top of his game.

Hughes is at the peak of his abilities and is in great shape.

43

[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
Ugh. Hour long fights suck, and they would suck even worse now because you don’t have dominating fighters like you used to. What would end up happening is a large percentage of the fights would just be decided by conditioning. Watching tired fighters try to stay on their feet is about as exciting as watching paint dry.

I also disagree with the supposed “purity” of the beginning days of the UFC. The early days were a sideshow spectacle. A bunch of people who had no idea how to compete in this new sport beating the shit out of each other. It didn’t even look like a sport, and I can see how the UFC almost went under.[/quote]

Without trying to sound rude, I would like to ask why you think hour long fights suck? Man I think they are exciting as hell!

To me, its amazing to see how far our bodies can be pushed, and a 1 on 1 fight is an excellent way to test that limit. Even if the fighters were evenly matched, it would be similar to Ali vs Frazier/Rocky vs Ivan Drago/Stephan Bonnar vs Forrest Griffin in that it would be hard shot after hard shot and and sub attempt after sub attempt without either fighter going down, a real battle in the ring!

Unless you have a rare occasion like Shamrock vs Severn 2 (both fighters circled each other slapping for over 30 minutes with nothing happening… the fans chanted “Red Wings”).

So just wondering, why do you find them boring? Minus that last example of course! I guess you just like to see high-energy fast paced matches?

Also, I understand your point about the early days not looking like a sport. And I agree with you. It BARELY was a sport… which is why I think it is so pure.

Maybe pure is the wrong word? What I mean is that a system of combat (martial art) is supposed to be effective, otherwise why learn it?

In the mid 80s after the Karate Kid craze, and Ninja Turtles and all that fun stuff, people thought that having a black belt in Karate meant you could kick anyone’s ass.

But what was better, Karate or Kung Fu? Or wrestling? What about tough streetfighters saying martial arts are worthless? Etc. Remember in these days people thought WWF was real fighting… actually some still do… but hopefully that number has gone down now!

Anyways what UFC tried to do was to answer the question, which 1 on 1, hand to hand combat style is best?

In order to TRUTHFULLY answer that question you would need to fight to the death. Ok, well, that aint gonna happen legally. So they found the closest possible way to test out different styles with the minimum amount of rules possible.

You can’t say “Ok guys who is better? Oh by the way mr. wrestler if you are beating the shit out of the guy on the ground but the ref says you’re boring the fight will be stood back up and if he knocks you out, you lose.” See what I mean?

This is what I meant by pure.

44

I am going to go in the opposite direction of most of you guys. I think Gracie will win in the first or second round by submission, however I really hope and want Hughes to win. In watching Gracie’s earlier fights he seems like a natural born fighter and his style is so disarming that people aren’t used to it. I think Hughes will get in Gracie’s guard but be frustrated by Gracie’s defense and then get caught with a submission.

I really like Hughes and don’t like Gracie very much. I don’t like Gracie that much because he is the opposite of me. He is weak (in terms of maximal strength), looks like he barely exercises, and very flexible, has great technique, and beats everybody.

It is annoying to think that somebody who probably can’t bench 225 can still fight great, even though obviously it is true. I have a lot of respect for Hughes because he is so strong and has great conditioning, but I don’t think his style matches up well with Gracie’s. That is my .02. Time will tell what happens.

If anybody has any video links of Gracie’s most recent fights I would love to see them - thanks

45

[quote]enterthedojo wrote:

Also, I understand your point about the early days not looking like a sport. And I agree with you. It BARELY was a sport… which is why I think it is so pure.

Maybe pure is the wrong word? What I mean is that a system of combat (martial art) is supposed to be effective, otherwise why learn it?

[/quote]

To add to this…

In the beginning they didn’t have 6 months to prepare for one guy. They were going to have to fight 3 or 4 completely different people with completely different styles that night to win it all. There was no sparring day after day with partners chosen to mimick your opponents style. You had to be prepared for anything. Now, there is really one style (MMA) with two sub-divisions: stand-up or ground. You are either going to prepare for months to fight someone who wants to stay up or someone who wants to stay down.

46

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Is this his “final match?” Is he retiring after this? I don’t recall reading anything about that, maybe I missed it.
[/quote]

Sorry, I got a bit ahead of myself in announcing Royce’s retirement…he hasn’t said anything of the sort, but I’m just speculating that win or lose this will be the last time we see Royce in the Octagon, and perhaps MMA at all.

47

[quote]nptitim wrote:
I am going to go in the opposite direction of most of you guys.

I really like Hughes and don’t like Gracie very much. I don’t like Gracie that much because he is the opposite of me. He is weak (in terms of maximal strength), looks like he barely exercises, and very flexible, has great technique, and beats everybody.

It is annoying to think that somebody who probably can’t bench 225 can still fight great, even though obviously it is true.
[/quote]

Hahahaha! Yeah don’t you just hate it when the skinny loser with glasses beats you in something physical? Damn it!

Never thought of it that way before!

Actually, now that I am thinking about it…in TC’s latest article about M.A.D. he talks about people needing enemies.

In the Olympics there was the nation vs nation aspect that made the games much more exciting and even gave them more of a reason to exist.

But in combat sports, we have something much more personal.

I love to watch the guys fight that talk a whole bunch of shit. Guys that have tons of tattoos and piercings and people that come from a gang background. People that are just assholes in real life. I LOVE watching them fight, especially cause I love to see them lose. Haha I guess because in the real world, the type of people those fighters represent are the ones stealing from me and ruining my community! I’d love to go around kicking their asses but most likely I’d get shot or stabbed by 20 of em at once!

So I guess some people like to see the skinny guy lose, some people like to watch the white guy lose, the black guy lose, the smart guy lose, etc.

Kinda interesting!

48

[quote]doogie wrote:
They were going to have to fight 3 or 4 completely different people with completely different styles that night to win it all. There was no sparring day after day with partners chosen to mimick your opponents style. [/quote]

Tournaments are brutal aren’t they? By the 3rd or 4th fight you could have a fractured hand, foot, cheekbone, be dehydrated, and have a huge cut in your head and still keep going. I have so much respect for the fighters who’ve done it. Now THAT is fucking heart, man.

Plus your strategy most likely changes a bit when you know you need to fight a few times in a night.

I can however, see the argument for the tournament to be gone when you REALLY want to find out who is best 1 on 1. Say I am the #1 fighter in the world. Its not fair if I fight the #2 and #3 fighter in the world for my first 2 fights, while the guy I face in the finals has fought 2 crappy guys and beat them both in under a minute, while my fights have gone for 20 minutes each.

Even though tournaments are awesome, I prefer watching single fight events and multiple event tournaments.

49

[quote]slimjim wrote:
I’m not discounting Gracie’s abilities at all in this one. He is the one I want to see win this fight.

However, with five minute rounds(I’m not sure if they’re going for 3 rounds or 5) and restarts on the feet when there is inactivity, he is at a distinct disadvantage to Hughes who can simply go hard for five minutes and stall if necessary to avoid the submission on the ground. I do not see this going Royce’s way, but I will be cheering for him nonetheless.
[/quote]

Agree completely.

Hughes understands and can negate submissions pretty well, so I don’t know if Royce will be able to catch him with anything.

This may be Royce’s final match, but what do you think would happen if he actually won? I wonder if he would retire or try again for an actual Title Shot? And what would happen to Matt? It kind of says to the world that Royce is still the real champ of UFC and Matt is just a paper champion.

Ahhh the anticipation builds!

50

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The young champion on top of his game ALWAYS beats the washed up old former champion in boxing.

It is usually a mismatch.

I don’t see why the same would not apply in this case.[/quote]

Didn’t you see Rocky?

51

I don’t understand what the big deal is about this fight.
Hideo Tokoro gave Royce Gracie a extremely hard time nearly six months ago. Tokoro is 170cm and barely 70kg, and has been knoocked out already a few times.

52

I’ve seen Royce’ training vid on Youtube -thanks a lot, eqpfunk- and I’m sorry to say that on the ground he may be a king but he surely is a pawn when it comes to kickboxing.
His boxing technique, his stance and his footwork clearly show that once Matt charges him aggressively and adrenalin pumps through his brain, he will definitely throw away these half-assed lessons and stick to BJJ.

Like many here, I also don’t like Hughes, but I’m pretty sure he’s gonna win. Sad thing.

53

Hughes 2nd round KO.

54

Yeah I don’t understand what the big deal is. Royce Gracie had an extremely tough time with Hideo Tokoro several months ago. Tokoro is a 170cm barely70kg
Japanese fighter. who has been knocked out a few times already.

55

Matt is the second coming of Sakuraba. Gracie Hunter 2! Next up, Royler, Ryan and Renzo.

56

Did anyone watch SPIKE TV last night?

They had a one hour show on Hughes vs Gracie. It showed plenty of training for both fighters.

Hughes looked incredible. And while Gracie is training hard, his training seemed to lack the reality that Hughes puts into his training.

Just one observation.

57

[quote]eqpfunk wrote:
A-Town Crown wrote:
I saw this under that clip. How long do you guys think Hughes would last with Sakuraba?

If I were to bet the farm I say Hughes wins, but I’m hoping to see Royce rip his fuckin arm off. When they announced this fight Hughes should’ve got down on his hands and knees and bowed before Royce for allowing Him to be able to wear that belt (that he doesn’t deserve)here in the states. Instead he says some smart ass remark about Royce being over the hill.

If Hughes is in Pride, no way he wears that belt, and I look foward to seeing him get knocked the fuck out, via GSP or Penn.

Why does everyone hate on Hughes so much? And the whole this guy in Pride vs. that guy in UFC is getting ooooold as my grandma’s underwear man. [/quote]

Because Hughes is an arrogant fuck and arrogance in fighting will always be met with some cumuppance at some time or another - ask Mike Tyson, et al. Each time you fight, you are the wrong move from getting submitted or knocked the fuck out. And Hughes has too many technical weaknesses to be so damn arrogant. Frankly, I don’t know who will win but I’ve put my time in on the earlier post about this and pointed out Hughes many weaknesses. If he loses, I’m here telling everyone a big fat I TOLD YOU SO.

58

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
eqpfunk wrote:
A-Town Crown wrote:
I saw this under that clip. How long do you guys think Hughes would last with Sakuraba?

If I were to bet the farm I say Hughes wins, but I’m hoping to see Royce rip his fuckin arm off. When they announced this fight Hughes should’ve got down on his hands and knees and bowed before Royce for allowing Him to be able to wear that belt (that he doesn’t deserve)here in the states. Instead he says some smart ass remark about Royce being over the hill.

If Hughes is in Pride, no way he wears that belt, and I look foward to seeing him get knocked the fuck out, via GSP or Penn.

Why does everyone hate on Hughes so much? And the whole this guy in Pride vs. that guy in UFC is getting ooooold as my grandma’s underwear man.

Because Hughes is an arrogant fuck and arrogance in fighting will always be met with some cumuppance at some time or another - ask Mike Tyson, et al. Each time you fight, you are the wrong move from getting submitted or knocked the fuck out. And Hughes has too many technical weaknesses to be so damn arrogant. Frankly, I don’t know who will win but I’ve put my time in on the earlier post about this and pointed out Hughes many weaknesses. If he loses, I’m here telling everyone a big fat I TOLD YOU SO.
[/quote]

How is he arrogant? He’s no more arrogant than any other fighter, I’d say he’s just confident in his ability, and he has every right to be. And holes in his game? Like what? It’s obvious from just about every fight he’s had since losing to BJ Penn, that he’s practiced his BJJ and submission fighting. You think Militech didn’t point out after losing to BJ (not to mention Hallman twice) that Matt needs to step up his ground game?

This fight is going to be a lot of boring lay and pray BS from Royce with Hughes pressing the action and getting the eventual decision. Royce needs at least 30 minutes to mount any sort of offense on a guy who has even half a clue how to fight on the ground. The Gracies have done great things for martial arts and MMA in particular, but I’ll be glad when they lose some of their mystique after this fight (as if Sakuraba didn’t already do that after defeating Renzo, Royce, Royler and Ryan).

59

[quote]eqpfunk wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
eqpfunk wrote:
A-Town Crown wrote:
I saw this under that clip. How long do you guys think Hughes would last with Sakuraba?

If I were to bet the farm I say Hughes wins, but I’m hoping to see Royce rip his fuckin arm off. When they announced this fight Hughes should’ve got down on his hands and knees and bowed before Royce for allowing Him to be able to wear that belt (that he doesn’t deserve)here in the states. Instead he says some smart ass remark about Royce being over the hill.

If Hughes is in Pride, no way he wears that belt, and I look foward to seeing him get knocked the fuck out, via GSP or Penn.

Why does everyone hate on Hughes so much? And the whole this guy in Pride vs. that guy in UFC is getting ooooold as my grandma’s underwear man.

Because Hughes is an arrogant fuck and arrogance in fighting will always be met with some cumuppance at some time or another - ask Mike Tyson, et al. Each time you fight, you are the wrong move from getting submitted or knocked the fuck out. And Hughes has too many technical weaknesses to be so damn arrogant. Frankly, I don’t know who will win but I’ve put my time in on the earlier post about this and pointed out Hughes many weaknesses. If he loses, I’m here telling everyone a big fat I TOLD YOU SO.

How is he arrogant? He’s no more arrogant than any other fighter, I’d say he’s just confident in his ability, and he has every right to be. And holes in his game? Like what? It’s obvious from just about every fight he’s had since losing to BJ Penn, that he’s practiced his BJJ and submission fighting. You think Militech didn’t point out after losing to BJ (not to mention Hallman twice) that Matt needs to step up his ground game?

This fight is going to be a lot of boring lay and pray BS from Royce with Hughes pressing the action and getting the eventual decision. Royce needs at least 30 minutes to mount any sort of offense on a guy who has even half a clue how to fight on the ground. The Gracies have done great things for martial arts and MMA in particular, but I’ll be glad when they lose some of their mystique after this fight (as if Sakuraba didn’t already do that after defeating Renzo, Royce, Royler and Ryan).[/quote]

I’d love to accomodate you but I’ve already listed them debating with someone else on the orginal thread; if you really want it, go find it - no disrespect intended. But the cliff notes nonetheless; First, he’s not that good a fighter to be so arrogant; the talent level in the UFC is quite marginal. Quite frankly, Hughes is not remarkable in any way except his relative strength and wrestling ability and these are MMA fights - not wrestling matches. Everyone keeps mentioning his on the rise submission skilss…lol. Fact is, he has never submitted top competition - only UFC competition and other than Penn, I don’t see any BFF in the UFC that impresses me one bit. I’ve seen so called black belts that leave me very unimpressed. His hands are not great - only adequate - he couldn’t win a local amateur golden gloves - he is that raw. Excellent wrestler, yes, but that’s about it. Gracie will get it to the ground - that you can be assured of; after that, its anyone’s guess…its a damn fight - if we knew who’d win, there’d be no reason to fight at all. But I do know that Gracie if BY FAR a more technically proficient ground fighter and knows enough to deal with Hughes strength. BJJ is leverage and skill - not strength.

60

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
eqpfunk wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
eqpfunk wrote:
A-Town Crown wrote:
I saw this under that clip. How long do you guys think Hughes would last with Sakuraba?

If I were to bet the farm I say Hughes wins, but I’m hoping to see Royce rip his fuckin arm off. When they announced this fight Hughes should’ve got down on his hands and knees and bowed before Royce for allowing Him to be able to wear that belt (that he doesn’t deserve)here in the states. Instead he says some smart ass remark about Royce being over the hill.

If Hughes is in Pride, no way he wears that belt, and I look foward to seeing him get knocked the fuck out, via GSP or Penn.

Why does everyone hate on Hughes so much? And the whole this guy in Pride vs. that guy in UFC is getting ooooold as my grandma’s underwear man.

Because Hughes is an arrogant fuck and arrogance in fighting will always be met with some cumuppance at some time or another - ask Mike Tyson, et al. Each time you fight, you are the wrong move from getting submitted or knocked the fuck out. And Hughes has too many technical weaknesses to be so damn arrogant. Frankly, I don’t know who will win but I’ve put my time in on the earlier post about this and pointed out Hughes many weaknesses. If he loses, I’m here telling everyone a big fat I TOLD YOU SO.

How is he arrogant? He’s no more arrogant than any other fighter, I’d say he’s just confident in his ability, and he has every right to be. And holes in his game? Like what? It’s obvious from just about every fight he’s had since losing to BJ Penn, that he’s practiced his BJJ and submission fighting. You think Militech didn’t point out after losing to BJ (not to mention Hallman twice) that Matt needs to step up his ground game?

This fight is going to be a lot of boring lay and pray BS from Royce with Hughes pressing the action and getting the eventual decision. Royce needs at least 30 minutes to mount any sort of offense on a guy who has even half a clue how to fight on the ground. The Gracies have done great things for martial arts and MMA in particular, but I’ll be glad when they lose some of their mystique after this fight (as if Sakuraba didn’t already do that after defeating Renzo, Royce, Royler and Ryan).

I’d love to accomodate you but I’ve already listed them debating with someone else on the orginal thread; if you really want it, go find it - no disrespect intended. But the cliff notes nonetheless; First, he’s not that good a fighter to be so arrogant; the talent level in the UFC is quite marginal. Quite frankly, Hughes is not remarkable in any way except his relative strength and wrestling ability and these are MMA fights - not wrestling matches. Everyone keeps mentioning his on the rise submission skilss…lol. Fact is, he has never submitted top competition - only UFC competition and other than Penn, I don’t see any BFF in the UFC that impresses me one bit. I’ve seen so called black belts that leave me very unimpressed. His hands are not great - only adequate - he couldn’t win a local amateur golden gloves - he is that raw. Excellent wrestler, yes, but that’s about it. Gracie will get it to the ground - that you can be assured of; after that, its anyone’s guess…its a damn fight - if we knew who’d win, there’d be no reason to fight at all. But I do know that Gracie if BY FAR a more technically proficient ground fighter and knows enough to deal with Hughes strength. BJJ is leverage and skill - not strength.
[/quote]

I’m going to have to disagree about the UFC being marginal especially in the welterweight division (Heavyweight, yes totally marginal. Middleweight, maybe.). I would argue that’s where the UFC has by far the most depth. And you don’t think Hughes pulling an armbar on GSP was impressive? GSP not impressive? You have high standards my friend. Sakurai and Carlos Newton are international talent as well that Hughes esentially man handled. I’d love to see Pride start a 170 division and see Hughes go to a grand prix there. Doubt that will happen anytime soon though.

I think the only way Hughes will get any respect from the naysayers is by defeating Royce, GSP again, and defeating Penn (who in my opinion is on a slide). Maybe throw Parisyan in there for good measure too just to clean out the division of any and all contenders.