Fighters Gassing

Training
61

[quote]Valor wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
ZEB wrote:
MattyG35 wrote:

With Baroni, or any of these others guys, if you’re carrying more muscle than you’re capable of fueling

Total nonsense! Please stop.

That means your plan is ‘Hope I knock him out in the first round or else there’s a good chance I’ll lose’ There is a balance that one must strive for.

Skill, skill, keep saying that to yourself until you actually understand it. Skill is what holds back Baroni. And the previous poster is correct in what Sherk has been doing lately by trying to box everyone, it’s insane. Once again, call it poor planning or not using his best skill set. But, it has NOTHING to do with his condition or not being able to fuel his muscles lol that was funny. No really, you’re reading bad information stop doing it.

Zeb, I get what you are saying and agree with you to an extent but think you are taking it too far to the extreme.

There is some merit in the fact that a big muscular body will take more energy to fuel it. The human body can only process so much energy therefore you get to a point of diminishing returns for increasing muscle mass.

That said, skill and style plays a huge factor. Getting punched repeatedly or taken down repeatedly or dominated on the ground saps your energy and will. Equally, coming out swinging for the fences will burn you out quicker than edging your way into a fight.

My this fence is comfy :wink:

But, doesn’t it take a great deal of energy to fuel a fatter body? Think about it.

I’m not saying fat is better than muscle…I am saying that total body weight and lack of proper cardio is the issue. [/quote]

We agree that a lack of a good sports specific cardio training regime is paramount. However, the other part of your post seems contradictory. How can body weight in combat sports be an issue without also saying you want your opponent to have more fat than muscle since there are in fact weight classes?

If both fighters go into a cage at 170 pounds. You either want your fighter to have more muscle or more fat, as their weight will be virtually the same.

Think about it.

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Who the fuck said anything about fat? Why would you even mention such an obvious disadvantage? Is that what you think when someone says too much muscle? “They want the guy to be fatter” Smarten the fuck up.

Some of these fighters want to cut 10-15+ pounds right? Muscle is like 70-80% water, so thats where it comes from right? Are we in agreement so far Zeb? When you shed too much water from your big fucking muscles, there’s a chance you won’t replenish them properly. So now you have your ‘big fast-twitch bodybuilder muscles’ that don’t have a full tank to work on, thus you run out of energy even sooner. Which alsos fucks you up mentally.

Too big of an engine + Less than full fuel tank = Less mileage

Now compound that on top of the fact that your muscles are at less than maximum/optimal capacity, have to carry the extra weight of the muscle that you so desperately needed to put on and you end up fucking yourself. Then if you want to take it further, all the time that you put into getting yourself “BIG” would’ve been better spent improving your conditioning.

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[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
drewh wrote:
you must not have rolled with good blue belts.

The kid wasn’t the best, I’ve definitely rolled with better people. But even he made a remark about how I was exerting a lot of force… and I was. I know that’s not what you’re supposed to do in BJJ, but being as I’m not overly skilled in it, I knew that i had to outmuscle him or I was fucked.

And of course, it was during a drill and I gassed pretty badly. But I still beat that kid because of strength.

Spot the boxing attitude in a BJJ class. Mucling through a sparring session to ‘win’ actually causes you and your training partner to both lose. You lose because you are not learning proper technique, your training partner loses because he is risking injury and not able to train effectively.

You are a white belt, he is a blue belt, ergo you are both beginners, the idea is to practice the moves with good technique, not to see who can get the other person in the tightest non choking headlock.

gets off soap box

I understand what you’re saying, but…

At the same time they may have both learned an important lesson (depending on why they were doing BJJ).

Irish probably learned how to apply the techniques that he had learned up to that point in a live context.

The blue belt may have learned the importance/significance of strength training and may have realized that he needed to pay a little more attention to that aspect of his training. He also, if he trains against such people on a consistent basis, learns how to deal with superior strength and an aggressive, bigger, more physical opponent (something that he might very well have to deal with if he ever finds himself in a real fight). Thus potentially improving his knowledge of strategy and physicality.

There really aren’t any “losing” training experiences. ;)[/quote]

Ranger Batt sends a team to Naga every year… those rangers are tough, agressive, strong, and ultr-motivated. What they are not is techinically skilled. And they always fair pretty well.

64

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Valor wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
ZEB wrote:
MattyG35 wrote:

With Baroni, or any of these others guys, if you’re carrying more muscle than you’re capable of fueling

Total nonsense! Please stop.

That means your plan is ‘Hope I knock him out in the first round or else there’s a good chance I’ll lose’ There is a balance that one must strive for.

Skill, skill, keep saying that to yourself until you actually understand it. Skill is what holds back Baroni. And the previous poster is correct in what Sherk has been doing lately by trying to box everyone, it’s insane. Once again, call it poor planning or not using his best skill set. But, it has NOTHING to do with his condition or not being able to fuel his muscles lol that was funny. No really, you’re reading bad information stop doing it.

Zeb, I get what you are saying and agree with you to an extent but think you are taking it too far to the extreme.

There is some merit in the fact that a big muscular body will take more energy to fuel it. The human body can only process so much energy therefore you get to a point of diminishing returns for increasing muscle mass.

That said, skill and style plays a huge factor. Getting punched repeatedly or taken down repeatedly or dominated on the ground saps your energy and will. Equally, coming out swinging for the fences will burn you out quicker than edging your way into a fight.

My this fence is comfy :wink:

But, doesn’t it take a great deal of energy to fuel a fatter body? Think about it.

I’m not saying fat is better than muscle…I am saying that total body weight and lack of proper cardio is the issue.

We agree that a lack of a good sports specific cardio training regime is paramount. However, the other part of your post seems contradictory. How can body weight in combat sports be an issue without also saying you want your opponent to have more fat than muscle since there are in fact weight classes?

If both fighters go into a cage at 170 pounds. You either want your fighter to have more muscle or more fat, as their weight will be virtually the same.

Think about it.

[/quote]

I guess that depends on if a guy is fighting in his “natural” weight class. Would Baroni be better served to drop some of that muscle and fight lighter? I dont know. I do know that if he cant go all out for 5 minutes, he has no business in the cage. Period. I urge you to watch the fight again…Baroni is holding down Amir at one point, about 3:30 into the 1st round…and simply gives up.
I dont know if he had to cut weight, I dont know if he was sick, injured…whatever. I do know that this isn’t the first time Baroni has gassed early in a fight. At least vs Frank Shamrock you can say he took some punishment. Here…he didn’t.

3 minutes…30 seconds…and Baroni is finished.

65

I’ve followed Ortiz since the late 90’s and just loved his persona… Unfortunately, since the mid-2000’s the Ortiz we’ve all seen has always shown up “gassed” in the mid/later rounds of his fights…

For 106, I had a conversation with a friend of mine and said that if we see a well put together Ortiz, like what we used to see in the late 90’s, early 2000’s, then he’ll take the fight by a country mile… If he shows up and gasses out in round 2, he’s done…

Sure enough…

It’s kind of sad, as he’s been one of my fav’s for a while now… But if it doesn’t improve, then I think he should just coach, as he really had a good grasp of coaching on the Ultimate Fighter series…

Time will tell…

66

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Who the fuck said anything about fat? Why would you even mention such an obvious disadvantage? Is that what you think when someone says too much muscle? “They want the guy to be fatter” Smarten the fuck up.[/quote]

Okay I’ll try to smarten up, Ha ha…If there are two fighters who both weigh 170 pounds and YOU insist that one has too much muscle then the only other thing that he can have to make up the weight is fat if both fighters have reduced their water weight equally. Oh wait, the muscular fighter probably didn’t do as good a job because he’s stupid right? Big “non-functional” muscles are only found on stupid people. At least that’s in line with the sort of stereotype that you seem to be promoting.

[quote]When you shed too much water from your big fucking muscles, there’s a chance you won’t replenish them properly.[/quote] Yes of course and the fat, thin or regular sized fighter has no water in his body at all, he’s just naturally better, ha ha.

[quote] So now you have your ‘big fast-twitch bodybuilder muscles’[/quote] Note, “Bodybuilder muscles” are not quite as good as “regular” muscles. You see regular muscles are functional while bodybuilder muscles are just for show and do nothing but slow you down and make you tired early in the fight. I think I’m beginning to understand your point of view. In your world if one fighter is able to barbell curl 100 pounds for 25 clean reps that’s not as good as his opponent who can only bb curl 100 pounds for 5 reps. Yes, I think I understand you now.

[quote] Which alsos fucks you up mentally.[/quote]LOL

Gee, what if the person had built his "bodybuilder muscles (note, not as good as regular muscles lol) several years back and then went into mma training? How does that square with your totally illogical scenario?

Anyway, if what you are claiming is true then you are in essence saying that it is better to have small muscles. See how dumb that looks in writing? Tell me something, how does sucking weight differ from someone who is a muscular 170 to someone who is a fat (Skinny, medium) 170? Are you claiming that someone who is fat, or thin can suck the water weight easier and will not lose energy? How foolish, how funny that is.

And what an incredible bias you have against size and power. I could leave some threads here that would help you but I don’t think you’d read them. At this point you’re not interested in learning you merely want to blabber on about “bodybuilder muscles” being inferior. Somewhere along the line you became biased in your thinking. How did that happen anyway? I thought that the old bb inferior muscles thing was long ago killed. The irony is that you’re bringing up this old bias on a BODYBUILDING site. Ha.

The next time you see a successful mma fighter who has large muscles you tell yourself that they can’t be very good. Sherk (former champion) Lesnar (Current chmapion) Belfort (former champion) Matt Hughes (who used to spend three days per week doing deadlifts, chins and overhead presses) GSP who continually trains with weights and does Chin-ups with a 90lb dumbbell, Kevin Randleman (former champion and looks like a bb champion) and all the many others with “muscles” are just lucky I guess. I’m sure that there superior strength has nothing to do with their great success. Dumb fighters.

67

[quote]Valor wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Valor wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
ZEB wrote:
MattyG35 wrote:

With Baroni, or any of these others guys, if you’re carrying more muscle than you’re capable of fueling

Total nonsense! Please stop.

That means your plan is ‘Hope I knock him out in the first round or else there’s a good chance I’ll lose’ There is a balance that one must strive for.

Skill, skill, keep saying that to yourself until you actually understand it. Skill is what holds back Baroni. And the previous poster is correct in what Sherk has been doing lately by trying to box everyone, it’s insane. Once again, call it poor planning or not using his best skill set. But, it has NOTHING to do with his condition or not being able to fuel his muscles lol that was funny. No really, you’re reading bad information stop doing it.

Zeb, I get what you are saying and agree with you to an extent but think you are taking it too far to the extreme.

There is some merit in the fact that a big muscular body will take more energy to fuel it. The human body can only process so much energy therefore you get to a point of diminishing returns for increasing muscle mass.

That said, skill and style plays a huge factor. Getting punched repeatedly or taken down repeatedly or dominated on the ground saps your energy and will. Equally, coming out swinging for the fences will burn you out quicker than edging your way into a fight.

My this fence is comfy :wink:

But, doesn’t it take a great deal of energy to fuel a fatter body? Think about it.

I’m not saying fat is better than muscle…I am saying that total body weight and lack of proper cardio is the issue.

We agree that a lack of a good sports specific cardio training regime is paramount. However, the other part of your post seems contradictory. How can body weight in combat sports be an issue without also saying you want your opponent to have more fat than muscle since there are in fact weight classes?

If both fighters go into a cage at 170 pounds. You either want your fighter to have more muscle or more fat, as their weight will be virtually the same.

Think about it.

I guess that depends on if a guy is fighting in his “natural” weight class. Would Baroni be better served to drop some of that muscle and fight lighter?[/quote] He already dropped from 185lbs. to 170lbs. don’t hate him because he still looks strong, sheesh.

I agree, but don’t blame it on the fact that he has a good physique it makes no sense. Maybe he’s lazy in the gym (ala BJ Penn-if Penn had a good physique would you and others be blaming his large muscles?) or maybe he just does not have the skill level to support his desire.

Okay he gives up, but why? You think he gave up because his muscles were too big and hence he was in bad shape? Please. It could be he was not in good cardio shape because he didn’t train hard enough or properly. As I’ve already said you and I have no idea but you should know it has NOTHING to do with his muscles. You have to give that up.

Now you’re making sense, we don’t know WHY he gassed, getting hit early, not training hard enough, being sick etc. So let’s not make assumptions about him having too much muscle so he gassed.

By the way I’ve been reading how Frank Mir says that he wants to gain 20 pounds of muscle as he was impressed with how Brock Lesnar was controlling him on the ground. Dumb Frank he just doesn’t yet understand Internet wisdom, large muscles can only hurt you. No, no, really think about what you were claiming.

68

Zeb is not understanding what Matty is saying. Zeb’s arguements ignore some of his ideas and completely misinterprets the rest. Zeb needs to read from an unbiased pov and then argue from his pov. i hate arguing with people like you.

69

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
drewh wrote:
you must not have rolled with good blue belts.

The kid wasn’t the best, I’ve definitely rolled with better people. But even he made a remark about how I was exerting a lot of force… and I was. I know that’s not what you’re supposed to do in BJJ, but being as I’m not overly skilled in it, I knew that i had to outmuscle him or I was fucked.

And of course, it was during a drill and I gassed pretty badly. But I still beat that kid because of strength.

Spot the boxing attitude in a BJJ class. Mucling through a sparring session to ‘win’ actually causes you and your training partner to both lose. You lose because you are not learning proper technique, your training partner loses because he is risking injury and not able to train effectively.

You are a white belt, he is a blue belt, ergo you are both beginners, the idea is to practice the moves with good technique, not to see who can get the other person in the tightest non choking headlock.

gets off soap box

I understand what you’re saying, but…

At the same time they may have both learned an important lesson (depending on why they were doing BJJ).

Irish probably learned how to apply the techniques that he had learned up to that point in a live context.

The blue belt may have learned the importance/significance of strength training and may have realized that he needed to pay a little more attention to that aspect of his training. He also, if he trains against such people on a consistent basis, learns how to deal with superior strength and an aggressive, bigger, more physical opponent (something that he might very well have to deal with if he ever finds himself in a real fight). Thus potentially improving his knowledge of strategy and physicality.

There really aren’t any “losing” training experiences. :wink:

I get what you are saying, and agree with you to an extent. I love to roll with strong total newbies from time to time as a reality check.

When guys at my gym ask who ‘won’ a sparring session I always tell them whoever learned more.
[/quote]

Nice. Permission to use this in the future?

[quote]
It is just that I spend a lot of time teaching pretty new people and one of the biggest hurdles I find is to get them to calm down and realise they are training with someone not against them.[/quote]

Yeah, I totally hear what you’re saying.

70

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Valor wrote:
ZEB wrote:
MattyG35 wrote:

With Baroni, or any of these others guys, if you’re carrying more muscle than you’re capable of fueling

Total nonsense! Please stop.

That means your plan is ‘Hope I knock him out in the first round or else there’s a good chance I’ll lose’ There is a balance that one must strive for.

Skill, skill, keep saying that to yourself until you actually understand it. Skill is what holds back Baroni. And the previous poster is correct in what Sherk has been doing lately by trying to box everyone, it’s insane. Once again, call it poor planning or not using his best skill set. But, it has NOTHING to do with his condition or not being able to fuel his muscles lol that was funny. No really, you’re reading bad information stop doing it.

You’re just wrong. If Shamrock had swallowed his ego and added some cardio and dropped somw weight, he’d have been a much more effective fighter in his last few fights.

How about this: if Shamrock had just added more cardio, or this; if Shamrock had just been younger, or if Shamrock had just been more highly skilled.

You know what I mean? I wouldn’t go picking on Shamrocks muscle as the cause for his humiliating defeats vs Tito Ortiz, there are so many other reasons that he lost, being strong was certainly NOT one of them. That muscle you see actually helped him when he was younger and was actually competitive.

[/quote]

Well, I don’t disagree that Tito was the more skilled fighter (definitely better wrestler). But, you’ve still gotta take into account Shamrock’s age (at least for the 2nd and 3rd fights) and the massive injuries that he’s endured during his career (dude suffered a broken neck! just to name one) and abuse his body had taken up to that point.

That said, my instructors know Ken (and Frank) well and they’ve even said that Ken spent way too much of his time worrying more about how he looked when he stepped into the Octagon, rather than how his body performed. He never really trained to be in great shape so much as he did to look imposing.

The few times when he did seem like he came into the Octagon in shape he did well (i.e. his rematch with Kimo).

71

Also, keep in mind that Tito beat Ken after losing to Frank, and then subsequently training with Frank. So, it’s possible that he was already familiar with Ken’s style/tricks going into their fight(s).

72

I don’t think so, everyone started kicking Kens ass at that point.

73

[quote]drewh wrote:
I don’t think so, everyone started kicking Kens ass at that point.[/quote]

Ken was never really a dominant force, no argument there. But I’m sure that training with his brother (Frank) probably didn’t hurt Tito in his win(s) over Ken.

74

[quote]lemonman456 wrote:
Zeb is not understanding what Matty is saying. Zeb’s arguements ignore some of his ideas and completely misinterprets the rest. Zeb needs to read from an unbiased pov and then argue from his pov. i hate arguing with people like you.[/quote]

Then you shouldn’t have addressed me, now tell me exactly what I have not addressed and I’ll do my best to not make it too painful for you.

75

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
He never really trained to be in great shape so much as he did to look imposing.
[/quote]

Then he deserved to lose, and he did.

76

[quote]drewh wrote:
I don’t think so, everyone started kicking Kens ass at that point.[/quote]

Yea, I think the last time that we saw Ken Shamrock at his peak was about 2002 when he lost to Don Frye in a really great battle. I think he was in his late 30’s maybe 40 back then.

77

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
drewh wrote:
I don’t think so, everyone started kicking Kens ass at that point.

Ken was never really a dominant force, no argument there. But I’m sure that training with his brother (Frank) probably didn’t hurt Tito in his win(s) over Ken.[/quote]

Not to be argumentative (Me? NEVER:) but in his day Ken Shamrock was most certainly a dominant force in mma.

Lost to Don Frye in great fight

UFC 7 - fought to a draw against Oleg Taktarov

UFC 8 (first time) - beat Kimo Leopoldo TWICE

Ultimate Ultimate 96 - beat Brian Johnston

Pride - beat Alexander Otsuka

Pancrase - beat Bas Rutten TWICE

Pancrase -beat Maurice Smith

I’m not saying that he could compete with anyone in his weight class against today’s fighters even in his prime. But in his own day against the fighters of his time he was indeed dominant.

78

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
drewh wrote:
I don’t think so, everyone started kicking Kens ass at that point.

Ken was never really a dominant force, no argument there. But I’m sure that training with his brother (Frank) probably didn’t hurt Tito in his win(s) over Ken.

Not to be argumentative (Me? NEVER:) but in his day Ken Shamrock was most certainly a dominant force in mma.

Lost to Don Frye in great fight

UFC 7 - fought to a draw against Oleg Taktarov

UFC 8 (first time) - beat Kimo Leopoldo TWICE

Ultimate Ultimate 96 - beat Brian Johnston

Pride - beat Alexander Otsuka

Pancrase - beat Bas Rutten TWICE

Pancrase -beat Maurice Smith

I’m not saying that he could compete with anyone in his weight class against today’s fighters even in his prime. But in his own day against the fighters of his time he was indeed dominant.
[/quote]

Yeah, he beat some good guys (you forgot Severn) in his day, I’m not trying to take anything away from his legacy.

I guess what I meant by a “dominant force” would be someone the likes of Fedor today, or maybe Royce during the first few years of the UFC. Basically someone who sits atop the heap and everyone knows that it’s pretty much them and everyone else is a notch below them. Ken is one of the giants who’s shoulders today’s champs stand upon, and the sport wouldn’t be where it is today if it weren’t for guys like him. But, in the UFC anyhow, it wasn’t like there was Ken and everybody else (which would be my definition of a dominant force), maybe in Pancrase, but even then I think it’s debatable.

79

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
Too big of an engine + Less than full fuel tank = Less mileage
[/quote]

That’s flawed logic. Gearing and throttle use have as much to do with mileage as engine and fuel tank size. Pace has as much to do with gassing out as anything else. Some fighters obviously fight at an unsustainable pace.

eg. Don’t hold onto a guillotine if you can’t finish it, because you’ll waste a ton of energy.

80

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:

When guys at my gym ask who ‘won’ a sparring session I always tell them whoever learned more.

Nice. Permission to use this in the future?
[/quote]

Of course. I feel people expect a little bit of philosophy with their martial arts training :wink: