Fighters Gassing

Training
21

[quote]ZEB wrote:
MattyG35 wrote:
Its pretty obvious that Baroni is carrying too much ‘bodybuilder’ muscle and not enough ‘functional’ muscle.

What’s obvious is that you’re reading too much pop training information. Would you like to tell me what exactly “non-functional” muscle is?[/quote]

Well lets see here, Baroni used to be a bodybuilder, and bodybuilders develop more sarcoplasm, which for an mma fighter isn’t needed. Too much muscle mass uses a lot of energy to carry around without contributing enough towards performance in mma. Look at Sokoudjou(sp?), he carries too much non contributing muscle for his weight and it makes him tire quicker. If you don’t know the difference between myofibril and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy go read a fucking book and find out.

22

Please explain Sean the MUSCLE Sherk then internet guru.

23

All he does is focus on his conditioning while also doing bodybuilding and maybe some martial arts training if he has anytime left over lol. I’m not saying he did do steroids b/c he did deny it and whatever, but he did test positive too. All in all, I would say Sherk is an example of excessive GPP/Strongman type training, yeah he can and has beat a lot of guys that couldn’t keep up with him, but look what happened when BJ Penn got in the octagon with him.
One thing that pisses me off with weight cuts is how far some fighters take it, Sherk being a prime example. I would prefer them weighing in one hour before the fight, and people fighting at the weight they’re most comfortable with, cutting 15-25 pounds and then fighting in “155” is fucking bullshit. It takes away from the skill of fighters, “Oh shit I fucked up my cut now I’m so tired and can’t fight my best” That shouldn’t be an issue. Adjust the weight classes so 170 is lightweight, move each division one up and fuck the cutting/draining aspect. It would make for better fights, the fighters wouldn’t have to focus on making weight as much. Maybe Baroni doesn’t focus on his conditioning enough either. He has a great physique but can’t perform half the time.

What do you think?

24

Regarding Sean Sherk, I think he’s been giving up fights because he tries to box with his T Rex arms, not because he isn’t skilled as a martial artist. That’s poor game planning, not because he spends too much time flipping tires.

I think Sokoudjou is a great example of “functional muscle”. He’s obviously very strong and very powerful. His fighting style just expends energy very quickly. Judo throws and power punches can be tiring.

What I’m saying is a gas tank is as much style as it is training. I think the reason why big strong guys gas so quickly is because they can expend energy faster. When you can ragdoll people, why not use it? Guys like Baroni, Sokoudjou and Randleman come out full speed ahead and because of that, they gas quickly. People that are known for their gas tank like Couture also seem to be good at pacing and grinding away slowly.

I think most pro fighters tend to have similar gas tanks. There are exceptions of course in either direction (BJ Penn vs. Sean Sherk). It’s just a matter of how fast they spend it.

You tell me if you think Randleman could seriously keep that pace for longer than a few minutes.

25

No he couldn’t, and thats why he’s 17-14, and Sokoudjou is 7-5. Swinging for the fences makes for a good higlight reel, but not for a good record, at least with these two examples.

With Baroni, or any of these others guys, if you’re carrying more muscle than you’re capable of fueling and able to complete the fight with, what good is that? That means your plan is ‘Hope I knock him out in the first round or else there’s a good chance I’ll lose’ There is a balance that one must strive for.

Losing because you ran out of energy is defeating yourself, it’s inexcusable, which makes it even worse IMO.

26

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
MattyG35 wrote:
Its pretty obvious that Baroni is carrying too much ‘bodybuilder’ muscle and not enough ‘functional’ muscle.

What’s obvious is that you’re reading too much pop training information. Would you like to tell me what exactly “non-functional” muscle is?

Well lets see here, Baroni used to be a bodybuilder, and bodybuilders develop more sarcoplasm, which for an mma fighter isn’t needed. Too much muscle mass uses a lot of energy to carry around without contributing enough towards performance in mma. Look at Sokoudjou(sp?), he carries too much non contributing muscle for his weight and it makes him tire quicker. If you don’t know the difference between myofibril and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy go read a fucking book and find out.[/quote]

Then you subscribe to the misguided theory that bodybuilders are not strong. At least that’s what you are assuming. I’m sure you don’t want me to make a list of the many incredibly strong bodybuilders from past and present, do you?

They all weigh in and make the weight for their weight class. If you have 18" arms they will, if all muscle, in most cases, be stronger than a guy who has a 16" arm. In other words there’s really no such thing as “non-functional” muscle.

As to fighting:

Phil Baroni lost because he was not as good a fighter as his opponent, that was obvious almost from the start. However, he was stronger than his opponent. Simple stuff really. You’ll have to stop swallowing all the crap you hear from some of the alleged training guru’s.

27

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
All he does is focus on his conditioning while also doing bodybuilding and maybe some martial arts training if he has anytime left over lol.[/quote]

Wrong, I’ve watched some of his training sessions and he is very well rounded relative to his training in boxing, wrestling and other ma. He hasn’t trained like a bodybuilder in years. You really don’t know what you’re talking about sorry.

Oops, you’re confusing skill and strength again. No one is claiming that Sherk is the most skilled martial artist, however he’s incredibly strong and that keeps him in the game. And he did bodybuild years ago which gave him a great strength base.

[quote]
One thing that pisses me off with weight cuts is how far some fighters take it, Sherk being a prime example. I would prefer them weighing in one hour before the fight, and people fighting at the weight they’re most comfortable with, cutting 15-25 pounds and then fighting in “155” is fucking bullshit. It takes away from the skill of fighters, “Oh shit I fucked up my cut now I’m so tired and can’t fight my best” That shouldn’t be an issue.[/quote]

You’re showing how naive you are. Cutting weight has always been part of combat sports at virtually every level. You might just as well run outside and tell the sky to stop raining down all that nasty water. Please make sense.

There you go again confusing skill with strength. Baroni is strong and quite fast (it’s all the fast twitch fibers firing) but darn, he’s not the most skilled fighter is he?

I think you are a well intended fan who is off the mark and over his head in this discussion, sorry.

28

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

With Baroni, or any of these others guys, if you’re carrying more muscle than you’re capable of fueling [/quote]

Total nonsense! Please stop.

Skill, skill, keep saying that to yourself until you actually understand it. Skill is what holds back Baroni. And the previous poster is correct in what Sherk has been doing lately by trying to box everyone, it’s insane. Once again, call it poor planning or not using his best skill set. But, it has NOTHING to do with his condition or not being able to fuel his muscles lol that was funny. No really, you’re reading bad information stop doing it.

29

Baroni was less than 3 1/2 minutes into what could be a 15 minute fight when he started showing signs of being gassed… He had Amir down and just gave up, cause he was gassed. To that point he hadn’t taken ANY real damage. Baroni lost because his punches “push” more so than they explode, because he gassed, and because he couldn’t figure out what to do about simple knees.

Rewatch the fight…coming out of the corner for round 2, Baroni was spent. If your plan, as a pro-mma fighter, is to win a fight in the first 5 minutes, and if you dont to just fall down and die…then you’re an idiot.

30

[quote]ZEB wrote:
MattyG35 wrote:

With Baroni, or any of these others guys, if you’re carrying more muscle than you’re capable of fueling

Total nonsense! Please stop.

That means your plan is ‘Hope I knock him out in the first round or else there’s a good chance I’ll lose’ There is a balance that one must strive for.

Skill, skill, keep saying that to yourself until you actually understand it. Skill is what holds back Baroni. And the previous poster is correct in what Sherk has been doing lately by trying to box everyone, it’s insane. Once again, call it poor planning or not using his best skill set. But, it has NOTHING to do with his condition or not being able to fuel his muscles lol that was funny. No really, you’re reading bad information stop doing it.

[/quote]

You’re just wrong. If Shamrock had swallowed his ego and added some cardio and dropped somw weight, he’d have been a much more effective fighter in his last few fights…though Ortiz still would have outclassed him. Same thing with Baroni… At about 3 and 1/2 minutes into his fight with Amir, he had Amir down and pinned to the cage, and just stood up…why? Watch him after that… he was simply gassed…

3 and 1/2 minutes into a fight, he was was already totally spent. What does that tell you?

  1. He didn’t train.
  2. He didn’t do enough cardio.
  3. He carries too much weight.

Or some combo of the three… He had taken almost ZERO damage to that point, but he had thrown some shots… but nothing that should have gassed him.

I’d be willing to say: hey, maybe he was sick…or something… If this wasn’t a pattern with him.

Watch the 3rd round of the Ortiz fight…he utterly took that round off…because he was fatigued. No excuse for that.

31

Why did Baroni gas then Zeb? Please tell me. :slight_smile:

Obviously it was Baroni’s skill that held him back in that fight when he could barely move or even fight back.

He is tough tho, reminded me of Rocky getting a beating except he didn’t win unfortunately.

32

I almost forgot Zeb, what qualifies to you as pop training? I’m not really familiar with that term in this application.

33

[quote]ZEB wrote:
MattyG35 wrote:

With Baroni, or any of these others guys, if you’re carrying more muscle than you’re capable of fueling

Total nonsense! Please stop.

That means your plan is ‘Hope I knock him out in the first round or else there’s a good chance I’ll lose’ There is a balance that one must strive for.

Skill, skill, keep saying that to yourself until you actually understand it. Skill is what holds back Baroni. And the previous poster is correct in what Sherk has been doing lately by trying to box everyone, it’s insane. Once again, call it poor planning or not using his best skill set. But, it has NOTHING to do with his condition or not being able to fuel his muscles lol that was funny. No really, you’re reading bad information stop doing it.

[/quote]

Zeb, I get what you are saying and agree with you to an extent but think you are taking it too far to the extreme.

There is some merit in the fact that a big muscular body will take more energy to fuel it. The human body can only process so much energy therefore you get to a point of diminishing returns for increasing muscle mass.

That said, skill and style plays a huge factor. Getting punched repeatedly or taken down repeatedly or dominated on the ground saps your energy and will. Equally, coming out swinging for the fences will burn you out quicker than edging your way into a fight.

My this fence is comfy :wink:

34

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
Valor wrote:
FirestormWarrior wrote:
Valor wrote:
FirestormWarrior wrote:
Valor wrote:
No this is not a GI post :).

When will fighters learn that the saddest most fucking pathetic way to lose a fight…is to gas?
Baroni and Ortiz lost fights at UFC 106…because they gassed. Thats inexcusable at their levels.

In my opinion, it’s not good to talk about competitive fighters that way. You know, there’s always factors involoved you and I can’t see, can’t know, can’t even begin to guess. My admiration goes to those that reach a level comparable to that of Tito Ortiz - losing a single fight or two or even a whole lot of fights is part of the game.

Judging from personal experience, I dare say there’s rarely a single factor that determines the outcome of a fight. Although I don’t believe in luck, whichever way you might put it, there’s just factors beyond reach, things you can’t change.

Pro fighters a human being and as such imperfect. Let’s grant them the right to be human, that doesn’t lessen them. There’s a quote from Roosevelt that I love and it starts out with the words:

“The critics dont count.”

Google it up, it kind of perfectly describes what I’m trying to say here but can’t.

Once maybe… bot those two have made career out of it. Besides as a fan…I think its my right.

Uhm, no. On both arguments.

Well if you cant come down on a fighter for running out of gas…can you hammer them for being weak on the ground? Or not being able to stop a take down? I mean, you let me know…what can we anc can we not call a fighter on, as fans?

i agree…as a spectator, and both a fan and pseudo-competitor, i think i can voice my frustration. for instance, seeing Kimbo fight and his terrible ground game, i think i can be critical of that. i mean, he SHOULD be better than me-it’s his job.

i expect professional athletes to compete as such-as professionals.

EDIT: now as a flip side, i don’t ever boo, nor do i like to hear people do that. that’s usually an uneducated fight fan doing that. even at the amateur level, it takes a lot of guts and preperation to get in the cage, so i don’ think that’s appropriate, unless someone is acting unsportsmanlike.[/quote]

i think i thought of a better way to explain why it annoys me when fighters gas (due to poor conditioning)…

i think it’s because conditioning is really the one thing that every fighter knows how to train for. barring short notice for a fight or an injury in training camp, pretty much every one knows how to get their cardio up.

you need good partners and instructors to develop a high level of skill, and some athletes will always have more power than others, but i think pretty much everyone can develop conditioning, and can do it with limited resources.

just my .02

35

[quote]Valor wrote:
FirestormWarrior wrote:
Valor wrote:
FirestormWarrior wrote:
Valor wrote:
No this is not a GI post :).

When will fighters learn that the saddest most fucking pathetic way to lose a fight…is to gas?
Baroni and Ortiz lost fights at UFC 106…because they gassed. Thats inexcusable at their levels.

In my opinion, it’s not good to talk about competitive fighters that way. You know, there’s always factors involoved you and I can’t see, can’t know, can’t even begin to guess. My admiration goes to those that reach a level comparable to that of Tito Ortiz - losing a single fight or two or even a whole lot of fights is part of the game.

Judging from personal experience, I dare say there’s rarely a single factor that determines the outcome of a fight. Although I don’t believe in luck, whichever way you might put it, there’s just factors beyond reach, things you can’t change.

Pro fighters a human being and as such imperfect. Let’s grant them the right to be human, that doesn’t lessen them. There’s a quote from Roosevelt that I love and it starts out with the words:

“The critics dont count.”

Google it up, it kind of perfectly describes what I’m trying to say here but can’t.

Once maybe… bot those two have made career out of it. Besides as a fan…I think its my right.

Uhm, no. On both arguments.

Well if you cant come down on a fighter for running out of gas…can you hammer them for being weak on the ground? Or not being able to stop a take down? I mean, you let me know…what can we anc can we not call a fighter on, as fans?[/quote]

You’re missing the point. It’s one thing to be “critic”, as cyco put it. That’s ok, you can criticize an athletes techniqual skill or physical prowees. It’s something completely different, anyhow, to talk about just how a fighter loses a fight in

[quote]
Valor wrote:
the saddest most fucking pathetic way
[/quote].

That’s not right, that’s just plain disrespectful and has nothing to do with proper criticism.
For me, what you said and the way you put it perfectly matches the point Cyco just made:
Cyco’s phrase

So don’t get me wrong here: you can criticize. But show the appropriate respect. After all, respect plays an especially crucial role in just about any martial art. More than in any other sport.

Get my point? (Not a native speaker here, so maybe I failed to make it clear. Just let me know.)

36

[quote]ZEB wrote:
MattyG35 wrote:
ZEB wrote:
MattyG35 wrote:
Its pretty obvious that Baroni is carrying too much ‘bodybuilder’ muscle and not enough ‘functional’ muscle.

What’s obvious is that you’re reading too much pop training information. Would you like to tell me what exactly “non-functional” muscle is?

Well lets see here, Baroni used to be a bodybuilder, and bodybuilders develop more sarcoplasm, which for an mma fighter isn’t needed. Too much muscle mass uses a lot of energy to carry around without contributing enough towards performance in mma. Look at Sokoudjou(sp?), he carries too much non contributing muscle for his weight and it makes him tire quicker. If you don’t know the difference between myofibril and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy go read a fucking book and find out.

Then you subscribe to the misguided theory that bodybuilders are not strong. At least that’s what you are assuming. I’m sure you don’t want me to make a list of the many incredibly strong bodybuilders from past and present, do you?

They all weigh in and make the weight for their weight class. If you have 18" arms they will, if all muscle, in most cases, be stronger than a guy who has a 16" arm. In other words there’s really no such thing as “non-functional” muscle.
[/quote]

Although this shouldn’t be the place to discuss this (with like 40K articles already dealing with that topic), you’re right. There’s no such thing as “unfunctional muscle” from a purely mechanical point of view. A muscle has the potential to contract (you know, the actin/myosine reactions… you can look that up in any textbood), so it’s got a function.

That, however, doesn’t mean that everyone can make use of that muscle, so in a way, you’re wrong. There is indeed something like a non-functional muscle, from a practical point of view. This not only relates to martial arts but to any athletic discipline. Now I’m a big fan of Pavel - and his idea of strength being a skill, etc. - , but let’s keep him out of play here.

Fact is, the ability to generate force is limited by three factors.

  1. Muscle diameter. Great, so here you’ve got your “incredibly strong” bodybuilders. They actually exist, however, pure bodybuilding training is limited to this factor.

  2. Intermuscular coordination. Let’s just call this one “technique” for the sake of simplicity. There’s already enough talk about technique going on.

  3. Intramuscular coordination. That’s what many bodybuilders are just plainly lacking. Just because you’ve got slabs of muscle doesn’t mean you can actually recruit a high percentage of those. Just because some bodybuilders train that attribute, too, doesn’t mean the majority does. Powerlifters do, as do gymnasts and sprinters. For bodybuilders with a high level of intramuscluar coordination, it mostly comes down to incorporating non-bodybuilding principles into their training (i.e. having a good coach), being genetically blessed or doing some other sports as well.

Um, just a quick fix.

37

WTF !? you loose fights because you have gas ?!

thats some fucked up shit !

you can punch each other in the face but not stink from the pooper…

Fuck fighters are pretty boys if this is true ?

www.hotchickswithdouchebags.com/ ← properly all fighter that cant stand to smell the cheese !

38

[quote]blunt wrote:
WTF !? you loose fights because you have gas ?!

thats some fucked up shit !

you can punch each other in the face but not stink from the pooper…

Fuck fighters are pretty boys if this is true ?

www.hotchickswithdouchebags.com/ ← properly all fighter that cant stand to smell the cheese ![/quote]

…Sarcasm?

Now, since I’m not convinced you’re joking on that one, I’ll enlighten you: you “run out of gas”, if you understand it better that way. You surrender to fatigue. That’s how you lose…

But then you were kidding anyways, right?

39

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Skill, skill, keep saying that to yourself until you actually understand it. Skill is what holds back Baroni. And the previous poster is correct in what Sherk has been doing lately by trying to box everyone, it’s insane. Once again, call it poor planning or not using his best skill set. But, it has NOTHING to do with his condition or not being able to fuel his muscles lol that was funny. [/quote]

Sherk is a real dumbass. Guy’s small, has short arms, and that tactics he would have to use in boxing, he can’t in MMA because the sport is different.

Why a little T-rex like him who doesn’t have power in his hands tries to box is beyond me.

40

[quote]FirestormWarrior wrote:
blunt wrote:
WTF !? you loose fights because you have gas ?!

thats some fucked up shit !

you can punch each other in the face but not stink from the pooper…

Fuck fighters are pretty boys if this is true ?

www.hotchickswithdouchebags.com/ ← properly all fighter that cant stand to smell the cheese !

…Sarcasm?

Now, since I’m not convinced you’re joking on that one, I’ll enlighten you: you “run out of gas”, if you understand it better that way. You surrender to fatigue. That’s how you lose…

But then you were kidding anyways, right?[/quote]

yeah playing a little with the words :slight_smile:

just had to see how people would react… but you must admit that i was in my right mind to expect something difrent when i read the title ?