G’day guys, I’d like to bring up and expand a topic that originally was asked about on Sherdog (IIRC).
The topic in question was which is better for fighters(I believe they were talking about amateurs, obviously Pro’s live and breath it almost full time): Berardi’s G-flux theory (and combined workload of sport training - i.e boxing/etc, and weights) or the Crossfit approach (and crossfit workloads: obviously crossfit training periodized with rest days, tweaked for fighting) of caloric restriction.
Obviously given that you want top performance, G-flux would seem the obvious choice. However strangely, most of the folks at Sherdog seem to think the Crossfit/Caloric Restriction method is more suitable (This is probably due to members being overweight - but that’s mere speculation on my part), in the (paraphrased) word’s of one poster: “Due the broad success many different groups have had with it, from police, athletes etc to Special forces…”.
Which may just be ignorance on their part, since guys in combat roles in the military, especially infantry and special forces, tend to consume in excess of 5000 calories just from rations alone (if I remember the numbers correctly…) which certainly doesn’t mesh with the theory of Caloric Restriction…
Getting to the point, I’d like to hear people’s thoughts on the matter, and how either or could be implemented into amateur fight preparations. I ask because I’m at a rare position in my life where I have the time to able to put Berardi’s G-flux theory into practice and have given thought to competing before I join the Army later this year.
As far as I understand it, G-Flux is a mass-building theory (system? protocol? well whatever), so might - depending on your goals - not be a suitable plan for fighters.
(think weight classes)
oh and that’s not a “vote for crossfit”; just putting it out there.
G Flux has some interesting concepts. I don’t see any harm that can come from applying it. I can see plenty of harm coming from training with the heavy workload of an MMA fighter while on long-term caloric deprivation.
If I may, could I get some critiques on this program. I’m probably going to run with the G-flux principles, as this to me at least, sounds ideal that I can practically live and breath standup and ground training, while still hitting up different athletic qualities.
Where it says weight training sessions, I’m probably going to alternate between different qualities, Strength, power, hypertrophy etc.
Boxing sessions at boxing gym are 1 hr 30 mins, mixture of aerobic, anaerobic cardio, endurance and skill work.
BJJ/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is 2hrs long, and hard to describe really. Similar qualities to wrestling I guess.
Monday:
AM- weight training session 1 hr
PM- boxing 1hr30mins
I’m not a fighter so take this as my opinion only.
Basically, the caloric restriction approach is easier. Period. G-Flux is a longer term approach of progression in training and in caloric intake.
Since most people that would post in Sherdog (or any other forum, including this one) either compete as amateurs and/or recreationally, G-flux is difficult to implement to a higher degree. Seriously, how much time do you have to train (in total)?
If you look at the pro’s, they likely do something like train twice per day on technical skills and then throw in weight training/conditioning work throughout the week. This is their job and just like I work at my desk 8-12 hours per day, they train in the ring, on the mat, and in the gym throughout the day.
This training schedule obviously requires significant nourishment and the way the body tends to work, as you ramp up your metabolism, at a certain stage it starts leading the way requiring more calories.
In theory, the G-Flux approach floods the body with nutrients and causes cell turnover more quickly which aids in recovery. How correct the theory actually is, I don’t know, but the approach is definitely working for Olympic athletes.
Now back to our average trainee/competitor. Going from training 1-2 times per week up to 3-4 is doable and even some additional weight/conditioning work. But now you really need to focus on feeding, 6-8 feedings per day requires lots of prepared snacks for the office/school, hours of kitchen prep time, etc… At some point you hit your max in time you want to spend on this.
In comparison, the Crossfit/caloric restriction approach requires time for training and minimal time for food prep/feeding. Crossfit is designed to improve the trainee to a certain point which many people will be happy with, but it will not propel anyone to excellence.
Thanks for the info. In a way, I’ve been applying G-flux principles for the past 2 weeks, while I wasn’t very scientific or precise in my approach, I can say the process has been quite pleasing, and my appetite has definitely increased, and I could swear my strength has increased, as well obviously energy levels, this can just be attributed to the extra calories mind, not saying my metabolic rate has been increased yet.
However, with getting back into sport training, It’s definitely going to up the overall energy expenditure, especially boxing training.
G Flux doesn’t seem like it’s a specific program, so you might be comparing apples and oranges.
I wouldn’t trust that Sherdog actually has “fighters” on it. It’s more like an MMA Blowjob Barn, to steal my phrase from the politics forum.
Go to the forums on Eastsideboxing.com and see how real fighters train. Odds are it isn’t anything like crossfit, and it sure as hell isn’t anything as complex as Berardi’s formulas. I hate to sound very old school, but even though I love weightlifting, it’s benefits for fighting, especially in striking sports, are vastly overrated.
I’d like to see these superhuman motherfuckin amateurs that can work out with weights 5 days a week, hold a job, do roadwork, have a family, pay the rent, do skill training, and fight all at the same time. Most times we call them “pros”.
G Flux doesn’t seem like it’s a specific program, so you might be comparing apples and oranges.
I wouldn’t trust that Sherdog actually has “fighters” on it. It’s more like an MMA Blowjob Barn, to steal my phrase from the politics forum.
Go to the forums on Eastsideboxing.com and see how real fighters train. Odds are it isn’t anything like crossfit, and it sure as hell isn’t anything as complex as Berardi’s formulas. I hate to sound very old school, but even though I love weightlifting, it’s benefits for fighting, especially in striking sports, are vastly overrated.
I’d like to see these superhuman motherfuckin amateurs that can work out with weights 5 days a week, hold a job, do roadwork, have a family, pay the rent, do skill training, and fight all at the same time. Most times we call them “pros”.
Crossfit is for housewives.[/quote]
Love it irish lol.
Responding in Order:
I was more comparing the principles of high workload and high intake vs moderate workload low/restricted intake in regards to fighters. Not so much specific programmes themselves, true.
Awesome, mind if I quote that phrase for future use?
For weigh training, keeping in mind I’m not neccessarily aiming to compete in Boxing, it’s an option open to me at the moment, but I’m more interested in MMA comps at this point in time. As such, weight training is more geared towards wrestling aspects and power.
This is what I mean, I’m in a unique limbo here while I’m waiting to join the Army, where I do have ample time to sacrifice. There is one amateur where I train who is fighting for the nationals, he trains every day. I mean obviously my workload is not going to touch pro levels in intensity, but as stated before, I’m at a position where I can train 5-6 days a week. I’d also be doing this for only about 8-12 weeks ideally.
I don’t really have an opinion on crossfit workouts, I was more concerned with people thinking Caloric Restriction was a good thing for fighters.
Thanks, I will check out eastsideboxing. Also while I got you here, your opinion: right straight vs right overhand in terms of: effectiveness and ability to apply? I realized two very different punches and not exactly inter changeable, but especially in the MMA corner, I have noticed alot of favoritism with the overhand as of late.
G Flux doesn’t seem like it’s a specific program, so you might be comparing apples and oranges.
I wouldn’t trust that Sherdog actually has “fighters” on it. It’s more like an MMA Blowjob Barn, to steal my phrase from the politics forum.
Go to the forums on Eastsideboxing.com and see how real fighters train. Odds are it isn’t anything like crossfit, and it sure as hell isn’t anything as complex as Berardi’s formulas. I hate to sound very old school, but even though I love weightlifting, it’s benefits for fighting, especially in striking sports, are vastly overrated.
I’d like to see these superhuman motherfuckin amateurs that can work out with weights 5 days a week, hold a job, do roadwork, have a family, pay the rent, do skill training, and fight all at the same time. Most times we call them “pros”.
Crossfit is for housewives.
Love it irish lol.
Responding in Order:
I was more comparing the principles of high workload and high intake vs moderate workload low/restricted intake in regards to fighters. Not so much specific programmes themselves, true.
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Fair enough. But I think mostly fighters are in two phases (or at least the pros) - training, and not training. Guys when they’re not training are a lot heavier, and though they may still be in shape, they’re not in fighting shape. When they start cutting to make wait, that’s when they really do work. With the volume they’re doing though, limiting intake might beat the living shit out of them… I think it’s more of an “Eat much higher quality food” as opposed to “eat less calories”
yea sure.
Really I think it goes for all combat sports. For about a year I was going to 2 Okinawan karate classes a week and 1 MMA class a week, and I could, on a good week, lift once, MAYBE twice a week.
Any more than that and your work capacity is serious, because it’s just too much when you’re working full time.
Hey give it a shot. But realize that 5-6 days a week, you’re going to have to keep the workouts short initially to buildup your work capacity, otherwise you’ll burn the fuck out.
Ironically, by the time you’re really able to do 5-6 days of heavy work, it’ll probably be time for you to leave.
I don’t really have an opinion on crossfit workouts, I was more concerned with people thinking Caloric Restriction was a good thing for fighters.
Crossfit people think that because they have a hammer, everything is now a nail. Don’t listen to them.
That’s because Chuck Liddell works it in and it looks cool.
I don’t like overhand anything. I’m a southpaw, mind you, so my shits backwards from yours, but the fact remains that overhand punches leave you very open to counterpunching and also leaves you off balance as hell.
There’s a reason that you don’t see it in boxing as much as you do in MMA, and that’s because in boxing the fighters are good enough that if you try to do that, odds are is they’re going to counterpunch and KO you. MMA fighters are sloppier with their hands and are looking for a lot more techniques coming at them, so I don’t think they realize it as much.
But I would stick with the straight right. If you’ve got a good right hand it can be quickly thrown, quickly brought back, and seriously damaging if you time it right. Not much more you can ask for than that. Also, if you can develop a good short right, it can really, really surprise and hurt people. Hatton threw it against Malignaggi and nearly knocked him out a few times with it.
I don’t like overhand anything. I’m a southpaw, mind you, so my shits backwards from yours, but the fact remains that overhand punches leave you very open to counterpunching and also leaves you off balance as hell.
There’s a reason that you don’t see it in boxing as much as you do in MMA, and that’s because in boxing the fighters are good enough that if you try to do that, odds are is they’re going to counterpunch and KO you.
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For reference:
Take notice to the “nut-huggery” of Koscheck’s fast pitch right…before he’s counter-punched on his ass.
edit I forget that it was a jab(head down)that was countered with the uppercut. Nevertheless…still think it fits with the your talking points.
Starting to notice trend of the top tier UFC fighters showing decent boxing technique…and destroying those who do not.
I guess I’m just not seeing how these two concepts can’t work in concert with each other. Let me preface this with my basic understanding of G-Flux.
From what I’ve got you take in the max amount of calories you can and still achieve your desired goal. If you’re trying to lose fat for example you eat as much food as possible while doing enough physical activity to create a caloric deficit.
Example: Subject A is consuming 1500 kcal and expending 2000 kcal. Subject B is consuming 3000 calories and expending 3500. They have the same caloric deficit, but due to B having more nutrients he will have an overall better body composition.
You’re still using the concept of caloric restriction to lose weight, but subject B is going to retain more muscle mass. As far as i can tell the two are talking about the same principle. G-Flux principals are just a method to maximize muscle and strength retention.
my input (and everyone here knows i’m not much of a fan of Crossfit)…i’m in the Army infantry, a street cop and a fighter…and i only know ONE person who uses Crossfit.
He’s one of my buddy’s uncle, who happens to be a genetic anomoly, who started a SWAT team in his area and was the oldest guy on it, even though he schooled everyone else.
if it works for you, use it…but if it doesn’t, let it go and use what works for evryeone else.
[quote]rugbyfan wrote:
I guess I’m just not seeing how these two concepts can’t work in concert with each other. Let me preface this with my basic understanding of G-Flux.
From what I’ve got you take in the max amount of calories you can and still achieve your desired goal. If you’re trying to lose fat for example you eat as much food as possible while doing enough physical activity to create a caloric deficit.
Example: Subject A is consuming 1500 kcal and expending 2000 kcal. Subject B is consuming 3000 calories and expending 3500. They have the same caloric deficit, but due to B having more nutrients he will have an overall better body composition.
You’re still using the concept of caloric restriction to lose weight, but subject B is going to retain more muscle mass. As far as i can tell the two are talking about the same principle. G-Flux principals are just a method to maximize muscle and strength retention.
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Personally I like John Berardi’s stuff. I’m far from any good at nutrition, and I’m just starting to learn it now, but I think that he has as much empirical research (done on himself) as he does other stuff, and I think he really knows what he’s talking about.
And I agree that the quality of the food is more important, too. However, I have never had to cut weight because I am not competitive, and I’m not quite sure what most fighters’ diet looks like- I’d imagine that, like training methods, it varies greatly between those of the old school and the new.
Take notice to the “nut-huggery” of Koscheck’s fast pitch right…before he’s counter-punched on his ass.
edit I forget that it was a jab(head down)that was countered with the uppercut. Nevertheless…still think it fits with the your talking points.
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If you freeze frame it at 7:47 you see a mistake that even the guys on FNF don’t do- head down on a jab, looking away and probably closing his eyes as he hits. Going in head down to boot, with his opposite hand by his fucking ear (???)
Hahaha. I really don’t know how you guys watch that damn sport. Reminds me of a youtube fight.
[quote]
Starting to notice trend of the top tier UFC fighters showing decent boxing technique…and destroying those who do not.[/quote]
WHAT??? But I thought BJJ was ALL YOU NEEDED TO KNOW!! I thought boxing was useless!
Ugh. Yet there are people on this board that think that if Pretty Boy got in the boxing ring with one of these chumps he would lose a boxing match. Crazyness.
I have followed crossfit for a while. I am an amatuer Muay Thai fighter. I even post on sherdog.
Rossboxing.com has great stuff on it. I work full time have kids and train and fight. I work out twice a day when I know I have a fight coming up.
Because of the distance of the MT gym from my house it is hard for me to get over there every day when I am training for a fight. (See work/kids) My last fight I stopped doing crossfit about a month before my fight and tried to do a more traditional program.
Monday am weights (Pl stuff or Oly)
pm run
tuesday am run
pm MT
wednesday am Some kind of Metcon
pm run
thursday weight (either oly or PL whatever I didnt do on monday) Pm MT
Friday am Metcon
pm MT most my sparring done here
Saturday am run
sunday rest
This is kind of basically what I did to get ready. I ended up missing workouts etc because of my job but I didnt kill myself over it. I won my fight in the second round by ko and still felt like I had a really easy 5 rounds in me.