[quote]Fiction wrote:
It seems like everyone does stretching prior to working out despite the wealth of evidence that it decreases force production, increases muscle damage, and a wealth of other negative things.
Why?[/quote]
I always heard never to stretch close to working out. I’m stretching 4 hours before working out, I never really thought this would affect my energy output on the weights.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Why?
Because I think it’s bullshit.
People always say that, but to me it’s the same thing as the “Fighters shouldn’t run long distances” myth, or the “athletes succeed IN SPITE of their programs.”
Forgive me for possibly being dogmatic, but I think alot of things athletes have done for a long time have been done for a long time because, quite simply, they work.
I doubt you’re any more likely to get injured if you stretch before or after. I have, however, hurt myself when I wasn’t “warmed up”. Most times, stretching figures into that warming up. [/quote]
Work for what though? Stretching, either before or after exercise, DOES increase the length of the muscle, resulting in greater range of motion. THIS can be beneficial–hence why it became a part of the dogma in the first place. The people then take that idea and extrapolate it to "stretching is good for all of the muscles–they should all be flexible because flexibility is a good state to be in. People just threw stretching at the beginning because it is part of the warm-up and it feels good.
For years people lifted with belts because they thought it was better for you and reduced the likelihood of injury. And it probably does for the short term in the gym. Now numerous amounts of research shows that in the long term, it weakens the your abdominals, obliques, and pelvic girdle resulting in far more hernias outside of the gym.
Stretching has been shown to decrease strength (Cramer et al., 2004; Nelson et al., 2001; Behm et al., 2001; Fowles et al., 2000; Kokkonen et al., 1998) and power (Cornwell et al., 2001)
With that said, some studies have confounded these findings (e.g. Knudson et al., 2001), which show that shorter duration (30 sec.) stretching does not negatively impact the force production. A recent study (Zakas et al., 2006) compared the two methods–long duration versus short duration–and found that the short duration did not result in force production decrements, while long term did.
In any case, don’t blanket statement things like “I think it’s bullshit”. If a lot of smart trainers like Robertson, Cressey, Thibaudaeu, Boyle, and others are challenging it, and the scientific literature strongly is against the idea, it’s worth taking a look at the research and disputing the methodology if you really disagree.
Frankly, I’m a traditionalist myself, but if the research and trainers are arguing overwhelmingly against an idea, I’m going to abandon it.
Here are the studies I mentioned if you want to look them up:
J.T. Cramer, T.J. Housh, G.O. Jonson, J.M. Miller, J.W. Coburn and T.W. Beck, Acute effects of static stretching on peak torque in women, Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 18 (2004) (2), pp. 236-241.
A.G. Nelson, I.K. Guillory, A. Cornwell and J. Kokkonen, Inhibition of maximal voluntary isokinetic torque production following stretching is velocity-specific, Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 15 (2001) (2), pp. 241-246.
D.G. Behm, D.C. Button and J.C. Butt, Factors affecting force loss with prolonged stretching, Canadian Journal of Applied Physiology 26 (2001), pp. 261-272.
J.R. Fowles, D.G. Sale and J.D. MacDougall, Reduced strength after passive stretch of the human plantarflexors, Journal of Applied Physiology 89 (2000), pp. 1179-1188.
J. Kokkonen, A.G. Nelson and A. Cornwell, Acute muscle stretching inhibits maximal strength performance, Research Quarterly for Exercise and Sport 69 (1998), pp. 411-415.
A. Cornwell, A.G. Nelson, G.D. Heise and B. Sidaway, Acute effects of passive muscle stretching on vertical jump performance, Journal of Human Movement Studies 40 (2001), pp. 307-324.
D. Knudson, K. Bennett, R. Corn, D. Leick and C. Smith, Acute effects of stretching are not evident in the kinematics of the vertical jump, Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research 15 (2001) (1), pp. 98-101.
A. Zakas, G. Doganis, V. Papakonstandinou, T. Sentelidis and E. Vamvakoudis, Acute effects of static stretching duration on isokinetic peak torque production of soccer players, Journal of Bodywork and Movement Therapies 10 (2006) (2), pp. 89-95.
sigh i typed all that shit in vain didn’t i…
well then what should i do differently? i’m taking a lot of your advice
Stretching:
Make sure you have enough range of motion that you are not moving with the “brakes” on. Otherwise, static stretching after or on days off. Do PNF and dynamic, or what I call strength stretching, on workout days. I personally never stretch. I let my warmup/skills training act as my stretching. I won internationally and nationally…and the Coach who turned me on to the idea of limited stretching was an Olympic Gold medalist. So, more anecdoctal eveidence to the mix.
Weights:
Do none of the fellas you train with lift weights, or do any running activities??? You need to tag along with the good fighters who have been down, or are currently on that road. Ralph Macchios do not usually make it in today’s martial arts world.
Become a good fighter 1st. Add supplemental training later. Until you are a good fighter, limit your supplemental training to about 30% of the mix. After, make it 50/50 overall. Spend time increasing your strength, then time increasing your speed/power. Time on each depends on weakness. Some hypertrophy training and HIIT should be thrown in now and then, and generally is good for fat control and other variables.
Don’t get in a hurry. Make steady prgress in your workouts. You may need to cut your volume down some to achieve this.
For what its worth.
Edit: And if nothing else, spend time in the gym on your VMO, hamstrings, and lower back.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
great post. suppplemental training.
I have said it before, too much emphasis is spent in weight training, for fighting on this site,
thats OK because this is a bodybuilding , lifting site, not fighting dot com.
I can only speak on my experience as a college wrestler and judo player
HS I did whatever workout in my mom’s basement
that I read in a magazine…
wrestling camps we did the power clean and the snatch. and conditioning.
we spent much more time in college on conditining then weight training- we had a universal a big chin bar, and thats about it.
my next two years of school at a D1 place they
had a “strength guy” and
basically we did powercleans, front squat,
pull ups, dips row, maybe some kind of push press and plenty of one legged squating.
rope climbs & pullups galore.
this was 3 maybe maybe 4 hours a week at most.
post college I worked with some different coaches who had more advanced lifting programs snatch, cleans, variations with boxes of different height, and combinations of lifts done together and much more unilateral stuff
we did a lactic workout similiar to the barbell complexes that Waterbury and cosgrove write about the workout was very similiar to the team quest work out if you ever see that.
Also we did a program of olympic lift variations, jumping, and sprinting in one session and thousand and thousands of hanging leg raises.
All this training might have been 10% of our training time- maybe 3 to 4 hours a week
the rest of my training , wrestling, greco or judo
we spent the bulk of our time on the mat.
we spent the next largest portion of out time
doing HIIT sprints, hill, stair, etc,
and yes distance too,
and lastly was “strength” training-
which for us was really a compromise of
agility, strenght and speed in one session
what works for you might be different.
this is when I did Sponsored sports-
college and post college where you are training full time- usually 2x a day.
Your doing this recreationally-
and I have a feeling asthetics take some of
priority for you ( which is fine)
But if you are doing a split- stick with things that will enhance your flexibility vs hinder it.
But mix it up- some cycling of strenght training as well as speed/agillity athletic lifts.
kmc
[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
great post. suppplemental training.
I have said it before, too much emphasis is spent in weight training, for fighting on this site,
thats OK because this is a bodybuilding , lifting site, not fighting dot com.
I can only speak on my experience as a college wrestler and judo player
HS I did whatever workout in my mom’s basement
that I read in a magazine…
wrestling camps we did the power clean and the snatch. and conditioning.
we spent much more time in college on conditining then weight training- we had a universal a big chin bar, and thats about it.
my next two years of school at a D1 place they
had a “strength guy” and
basically we did powercleans, front squat,
pull ups, dips row, maybe some kind of push press and plenty of one legged squating.
rope climbs & pullups galore.
this was 3 maybe maybe 4 hours a week at most.
post college I worked with some different coaches who had more advanced lifting programs snatch, cleans, variations with boxes of different height, and combinations of lifts done together and much more unilateral stuff
we did a lactic workout similiar to the barbell complexes that Waterbury and cosgrove write about the workout was very similiar to the team quest work out if you ever see that.
Also we did a program of olympic lift variations, jumping, and sprinting in one session and thousand and thousands of hanging leg raises.
All this training might have been 10% of our training time- maybe 3 to 4 hours a week
the rest of my training , wrestling, greco or judo
we spent the bulk of our time on the mat.
we spent the next largest portion of out time
doing HIIT sprints, hill, stair, etc,
and yes distance too,
and lastly was “strength” training-
which for us was really a compromise of
agility, strenght and speed in one session
what works for you might be different.
this is when I did Sponsored sports-
college and post college where you are training full time- usually 2x a day.
Your doing this recreationally-
and I have a feeling asthetics take some of
priority for you ( which is fine)
But if you are doing a split- stick with things that will enhance your flexibility vs hinder it.
But mix it up- some cycling of strenght training as well as speed/agillity athletic lifts.
kmc
[/quote]
Thanks for the info. Couple questions.
Since I have no weight class to meet, I can basically aim for whatever size I want with my body. That being the case, I want to gain around 10lbs in the ensuing months. I am 160lb right now and eating around ~3500-4000 cal a day. What kind of HIIT do you recommend doing if I’m trying to gain weight and maintain good cardio, and how many days a week?
Secondly, as a wrestler and judoka, what drills do you recommend I do to improve my takedowns and ground movement?
In terms of my goals, you are right in saying that I have aesthetic as well as strength goals. Right now I’m doing one of Thib’s workouts that is a middle of the road program. The first lift is 4-5x4-6 and the second is 8-10, third 13-15, then start over for the second body part. For shoulders and traps I’m clean and pressing, legs i’m squatting and going to begin deadlifting, etc. What kind of lifts do you think I should add to enhance flexibility (very important b/c i want to work a rubber guard while on my back)?
[quote]Nikiforos wrote:
Do you think gym strength and hypertrophy become more important when a combat athlete is trying to move up in weight classes? Just curious.
[/quote]
I thinks the rare situation when a fighter should move UP in weight class unless they’ve been cutting a shitload to get down to their current fighting weight (anderson silva or mayhem miller when he was fighting at 170) so a weight class above is easier on their body.
But if your name happens to be BJ Penn (aka big baby jesus) and you want to move up in weight class then yes “gym strength” and hypertrophy are important but you want your hypertrophy to match your relative strength.
So the goal would be to get VERY strong as far as relative strength and then keep that same ratio of strength to bodyweight.
So for instance if you can do 3 one arm chins with both arms at 155 (pretty damn strong) and you want to move up to 170 but you can’t do 1 arm chins anymore then you’re putting yourself at a severe disadvantage but if you can still do 3 one arm chins then you go stronger (as far as “absolute strength” because you’re moving more weight) but you kept your relative strength ratio the same.
Vertical jump and chinup strength are great relative strength tests in my mind.
[quote]Quinnthology wrote:
well then what should i do differently? i’m taking a lot of your advice[/quote]
I disagree with you buddy… I definitely would NOT encourage a bodypart split.
decide whats more important to you… fighting or your physique.
If it’s aesthetics, fine, great, dandy…go with a schedule by thibadeau… if you got the balls for it try doggcrapp training.
Now you seem to want the best of both worlds… in which case I would just tell you westside training or just train like a powerlifter period.
Why?
You never hear of someone from a powerlifting background have to worry about increasing hypertrophy, usually guys are just eating to get into another weight class or its a lifter that has to worry about eating themself into higher weigth class so they have to cut down.
Powerlifters who diet down to enter bodybuilding competitions routinely fucking EMBARASS guys who have been training all their life to be bodybuilders…and you’ll never find a powerlifter that isn’t a thick intimidating motherfucker.
You want to get big? Strong? intimidating? Put some fucking weight on the bar. Train heavy and eat a ton. Don’t be overly worried about your six pack. Be patient because becoming strong doesn’t happen over night. There is no secret. People get strong on many different programs, but the things they have in common is hard work and constant evaluation of progress.
moral is that success= heavy training + time at the dinner table + consistancy + hard work + progress
ive seen many a powerlifter who caught a great deal of crap for being “fat” offseason by bbers diet down and absolutely destroy bodybuilders in a bodybuilding show. How would you like to be in minnesota this year and thinking your a bad ass bodybuilder going for the 2005 Mr Minnesota, thinking your going to destroy everyone with your flushing and bombing pump workouts and powerlifter Andy Fiedler shows up and ABSOLUTELY CRUSHES YOU AND EVERYRONE ELSE OFF THE STAGE. Might be time to put down the one arm pulley row to isolate the upper right quadrant of section 3a of your lat (joke) and start deadlifting.
Just look at this dude:
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
Just look at this dude:
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=699538
[/quote]
So that guy is a fucking beast, I’m sure… and the point is what? I don’t want to look like that (first pic), I wouldn’t be happy if I looked like that, even if it eventually led to the second one. I don’t want to split my year in half and devote one year to being “fat” and the other to being “cut”. I want to have somewhat of an aesthetic body and also be strong, it is very possible. Strength is not the key of fighting, technique is. Look at Eddie Bravo and Royler Gracie, they submit guys who weigh 350 pounds on the ground. Sweeps and throws omit the strength factor. I was simply looking for some guidelines on how fighters lift, and I would take those into consideration when designing a workout program
(hence why my first lift is 5x5). I have done programs by many authors on this site and my strength and size both have increased the most on Thib’s programs. And all these keys to success? I do them all. I work my ass of in the gym and I eat like crazy. I just don’t want to be some short stout guy who can pick up logs and whose short, huge arms make him partially immobile.
You don’t seem to understand that I don’t want to make this my lifestyle. Lifting, fighting, none of it by itself. It’s different parts of my lifestyle which has many other important factors in it that make up who I am. I enjoy writing so I can’t train all day. I like biking so I can’t stuff my face all day. I like sweets so I don’t follow an immaculate diet that says “PWO sweets only!!!”. I’m just a casual person dude, and I’m just looking for some advice that suits me, not that suits an aspiring Ultimate Fighter.
on a similar note: i am willing to abandon antagonist splits and do an upper/lower workout with compound lifts instead of the isolation lifts in antag splits. but i will not do total body workouts. my body does not respond well to them and i do not like doing them. however, whenever i have trained upper/lower splits in the past i find i have easily overtrained.
[quote]Quinnthology wrote:
So that guy is a fucking beast, I’m sure… and the point is what? [/quote]
The point, I assume (not to put words in to XN’s mouth), is that you can look aesthetic and not train like a bodybuilder. Gulledge’s appearance has nothing to do with his training methods (I doubt he changed them at all), he just decided to diet for fun and see what he could look like.
If you are going to say that Gulledge looks fat, even in the first pic, I’m going to slap you. You probably weight 140 pounds.
That’s fine man, I’ve very much the same as you, although I recently discovered how incomplete my life would be if I wasn’t involved in some sort of combat sport. But here’s the thing–you need to decide what ti is that is most important to you and do it. It is only personal experience, but I’ve noticed that people (including myself) who do not focus on one thing tend to suck at everything.
You don’t have to train all day to get professional level results. Even top fighters don’t train all day. I’m sure you could write and train at a very high level. Evan Tanner does it.
What about biking prevents you from eating large amounts?
Eating sweets is just a matter of personal restraint. Unless you eat an absurd amount of unhealthy food, you can follow an otherwise very healthy diet and cheat from time to time and get very good results.
I can’t really tell what advice suits you. You seem to want to be able to pop a pill and turn into a Brad Pitt/Superman hybrid. Everything worth having requires sacrifice.
P.S. If you think that throws negate strength and size, then you have never done any in real life.
You can still do an antagonist split in an upper lower split in fact most are horizontal press/pull veritcal press/pull they are antagonist movements
Some great points as ever Xen. As you know I am in much the same boat as Quinnthology, I’d appreciate it if you would elaborate on how applicable a powerlifting routine is to fighting. I know WS4SB for example is targetted partially at wrestlers, but how about to boxers, or MMA guys who focus on striking over grappling.
Also, going on things you have said in other threads would you use a powerlifting routine to lay foundation strength (and maybe bulk) before working on power or are you simply saying that if Quinnthology wants to combine ability with aesthetics it is a good middle ground? I ask because I know you are into power training and also unilateral movements (which as I understand it are not part of regular powerlifting routines), and because my maximal strength is pretty low.
Finally, and this is a little off-topic, can anyone gain size with powerlifting? I always thought it was a good way to go for shorter guys?
Calories would determine if you gain size although a bodybuilding routine would more than likely lead to more muscle. Also on Joe D’s website type in mma in hte search engine and he talks about how to do westside for mma.
[quote]Quinnthology wrote:
Xen Nova wrote:
Just look at this dude:
http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=699538
So that guy is a fucking beast, I’m sure… and the point is what? I don’t want to look like that (first pic), I wouldn’t be happy if I looked like that, even if it eventually led to the second one. I don’t want to split my year in half and devote one year to being “fat” and the other to being “cut”. I want to have somewhat of an aesthetic body and also be strong.
[/quote]
Don’t eat as much than… I think all Xen is trying to say is train for strength and performance and the the “look” will come while having more carryover to your other interests.
But who says either have genetics like dave gulledge it may not come. Will it have more carryover some strong ass dudes get beaten by weaker guys all the time. Tank Abbot is strong as shit but gets his ass kicked frequently. I don’t think it matters what routine you do as long as it’s sound and allows you to get stronger.
[quote]drewh wrote:
But who says either have genetics like dave gulledge it may not come.[/quote]
This is worrying about things you can’t control so why bother?
Being stronger will have more carryover than having a nice peak on your bicep, yes.
Tank is strong but his conditioning sucks.
Obviously someone still has to train their sport and this is the most important aspect. Anything else is supplemental.
Something like Joe DeFranco recommends with jump training for de work and being well rounded to not create imbalances (which lead to injury.) SHOULD be superior than flat bench 3x8 followed by incline 3x8, etc.
What Fiction and Kalle said…
also powerlifting will make you stronger and faster… period…thats the point of it… lifting for power… and the eating will put muscle on you.
Realistically you’re lifting maybe 4 hrs a week? MAX 6 if you’re some kind of freak…
its what you do the other 162-164 hours of the week that matter. Getting the right amount of sleep and eating your ass off (or on i suppose).
Since Quin’s goals are more middle ground I reccomend he just works on getting stronger because you get bigger in the kitchen.
Volume training is great and everything but even on a 10x10 routine you only get bigger when you add weight whatever exercise you’re doing.
The point is get stronger, eat bigger… you’ll get bigger/stronger.
Because he’s more “middle ground” he doesnt need to worry about things that may be a little more applicable to fighting.
for instance he can train his flat barbell bench press all he wants.
Me personally I don’t because I get more bang for my buck from overhead pressing (when I increase my OH press my bench goes up so why bother benching?)… its just cost/benefit in regards to time. I still throw in incline dbbell benching from time to time though so I’m not completely forgetting horizontal pressing (and i do a shitton of pushhups)
^Agree. If you’re getting stronger, and you’re eating bigger, you’ll get stronger AND bigger.
[quote]Calories would determine if you gain size although a bodybuilding routine would more than likely lead to more muscle. Also on Joe D’s website type in mma in hte search engine and he talks about how to do westside for mma.
[/quote]
Right calories and a high protein diet are pretty much the determining factors. Carbs and fat management are what will keep you ~12% bodyfat (perfect range for your body to remain anabolic but not flabby)
what is a “bodybuilding” routine… 6 day split for each bodypart with 20 exercises for each bodypart? Fuck that. imo go with an upper lower split… pick 1-3 exercises and bust your fucking ass on them.
My point was with the powerlifter example is that this is a guy who’s training to put up more weight he doesn’t care about his “physique”… then all he had to do was manage his eating and presto he’s got a better physique than most of us will ever have.
my point is that people assume they need to do the latest fancy smancy twice a day training, body part split, edt + Poliquin + westside + metal milita + Waterbury + Thibaudeau routine.
The common theme in all of these is get stronger, but more weight on the bar.
I really dont care if you use machines, kegs, or duct tape midgets together… just do it progressively.
I dont care if you train like a powerlifter, a bodybuilder, or you do the latest crossfit work out of the day.
just put more weight on the bar.
I dont believe how many times i’ve repeated myself in this thread and you’re still missing the point.
pick 3-4 lifts
Take one year and put 200 more lbs on what you can currently lift (600-800 more for your total)
eat big, eat clean, and do some conditioning every now and then… I’ll bet your physique will be beyond what you’ve ever imagined you could do.
If you’re not trying to be a pro fighter dude… then dont even worry about that shit, hell consider it your cardio… instead of running or doing conditioning shit get in some extra bagwork, spar a few more rounds etc etc
if you feel like you need more conditioning then take a week or two off and really bomb that with complexes and sprints…
You have to prioritize.
A westside inspired routine would be beneficial its important to remember that they do assistance work alot of times in hypertrophy zones so i’d say a strength/hypertrophy ala westside would be best but there are limitless variations on how this can be done.