Cyborg’s best bet is to continue fighting at 145 destroying anyone who comes in across from her, but do like Bellator use to and have a non exclusive contract…meaning she can fight anywhere against any one for any organization. Doing this will only add to her fan base and will add pressure for her to be “challenged”
Dana White as been employed beyond his usefulness at this point. His unwillingness to let the best fighters fight their ideologies is making the UFC look more and more like WWE or even risk acquisitions of fight fixing ALA Pride
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I don’t think it’s about him dropping wrestlers as much as him dropping fighters who don’t finish people regularly or produce “exciting” (which I agree is a totally subjective term) fights. Weidman is a wrestler, Demetrius Johnson is a wrestler, Dillishaw and Cruz are both wrestlers, Lawler is a wrestler, Cormier is a wrestler, and Cain is a wrestler. None of those guys are going to get dropped any time soon though (even if they lose their belts) because they are dynamic fighters who produce exciting fights.[/quote]
Your list of grapplers pretty much proves my point. Each of them are able to strike about as well, some better, than they grapple. There are also many examples of Dana White favoring some on your list. Cain is only one example. They brought the show to Mexico so that Cain could be showcased beating a Jiu-Jitsu (grappler)guy. He did this because he wants Mexican pay per view dollars and new that Cain was going to win. But of course even Dana White can’t get what he wants all the time and Cain was knocked senseless by the grappler. Who could have known?
Also, Lawler rarely takes it to the ground anymore as he has learned that Dana White doesn’t like that. Also, Lawler has become a good enough striker and can take a good shot, so he keeps it standing. Weidman the same thing. What you are saying in essence is if the person grapples but prefers to stand and fight then White will not remove them from the UFC. Once again…a bias exists against good grappling. The words “exciting fight” are merely a euphemism for “stand and punch” to Dana White.
You are a smart guy I’ve read your posts before you know as well as I do that McGregor would have never beaten an in shape Mendes. Mendes was winning every round until he ran out of gas and tried a desparation submission. You also know that there will never ever ever be a rematch between the two. Mendes will be cheated out of a title shot because he is primarily a grappler and would beat McGregor who is apparently a money maker for White (his fights are sooooo exciting they are never on the ground).
So, again as a fan of MMA I am disgusted with not only Dana White’s manipulation of the sport and his low pay for fighters. But, also his baias against grapplers. We will never know who the real best fighters are(Mendes being the exception) as long as that bias exists.
[/quote]
First I was agreeing with you that I think Edgar would have been the better (or at least more fair) choice to have Mcgreggor fight, due to the short notice and Mendes not really being in fighting shape. He showed early in the fight that McGreggor has a definite weakness in regards to takedown defense and could be exploited by a good grappler who could set up takedowns well with striking. Had he not gassed it’s highly possible that Chad would have won that fight.
What I am saying is that it’s MMA, so yes fighters should be able to strike, wrestle, know Jiu-Jitsu and know how to defend against and transition between all of those skill sets. All of the fighters that I mentioned can do so, and all of them mix grappling and striking effectively.
What the average PPV buying fan wants IMO is:
-
above all excitement/entertainment (whether that be total skillful annihilation of edge of your seat action where it looks like the fight could end at any second)
-
finishes (people, both fighters and fans alike, have been burned way too many times by the judges to want to see them decide the winner of the fight)
-
drama (I personally hate that this is so, but the reality is that the average fan eats up the trash talking, tattoo toting, “tough guise”/“bad blood” story lines that some fighters have become masters of creating.
This is what the UFC (and White) are constantly trying to provide in order to maximize PPV buys on every show. If a fighter is not going to provide such things, then not as many people will pay for the card and the UFC won’t make as much money. Like you said, they care only about making as much profit as possible.
Finally, my comment about the fighters rights was not meant as an apology for Whites conduct, but instead as the only means that I see possible to counter such actions and fully legitimize the sport.[/quote]
Yes, I understand exactly what you are saying. But, my point is Dana White is ignoring a large part of the game by punishing grapplers for just being grapplers. And as you know there are a good many grapplers that are able to beat a good many strikers simply by taking them down and pounding them. Those are the fights that Dana White does not want because it does not consist of two men standing toe to toe and slugging it out.
And don’t you agree that this type of approach not only cheats the grapplers of the world, but also the many fans who enjoy seeing the very best man actually get to fight?
There are many other Dana White “sins” which I’ve listed in a previous post.[/quote]
I understand where you are coming from, but you are coming at things from a diehard fan’s perspective who truly appreciates and understands the sport of MMA. You are not however representative of the average fan who forks over their money to buy a PPV card. I truly wish as you do that this wasn’t the case, but unfortunately reality is not always as we would like it to be.
In an ideal world you could just sit the average fan in front of a TV set and have them watch wrestling and they would eventually come to understand and appreciate it’s intricacies. In the real world though, unless that fan actually has a desire to do so, he/she will more likely just turn off the TV or change the channel. No amount of force (well, at least no amount that the UFC can enforce on it’s viewers) is going to persuade a disinterested fan of the beauty of wrestling. Most fans of MMA are just as crappy as most fans of other major sports and so only really understand them on a very superficial level and only really recognize the big names. They could care less about learning the difference between a high crotch and a straight double leg takedown, or a switch, or a quarter Nelson, or any of the other (in my opinion awesome) skills taught in wrestling. All they care about is finishes, personalities/rivalries,drama, and excitement/emotional engagement.
This fact is painfully obvious when the audience starts booing when fights go to the ground and neither fighter makes any positional improvements or threatening submissions.
So as much as we would both like to place all the blame on Dana, we also need to accept the fact that the fan base is also partly to blame. And again, since there is no fighters Union, White can drop anyone who does not draw fans whenever he feels like it.
which brings me to my point of how do we get a fighters union in to improve quality of fights?
[quote]BigEasy24 wrote:
which brings me to my point of how do we get a fighters union in to improve quality of fights?[/quote]
The way you get any Union established, by getting enough fighters who are willing to band together and stand up to “The Man” (in this case White and Fertitta) and threaten to strike if their demands are not met. You would probably also need to get at least a couple big names and ideally even a couple title holders to join them. The reality though is this isn’t likely to happen any time soon, so at this point it’s kind of a pipe dream.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]BigEasy24 wrote:
which brings me to my point of how do we get a fighters union in to improve quality of fights?[/quote]
The way you get any Union established, by getting enough fighters who are willing to band together and stand up to “The Man” (in this case White and Fertitta) and threaten to strike if their demands are not met. You would probably also need to get at least a couple big names and ideally even a couple title holders to join them. The reality though is this isn’t likely to happen any time soon, so at this point it’s kind of a pipe dream.[/quote]
that’s my point no major star is going to give up his PPV points just so the bottom guys make 12,000 a fight instead of 8k
Which is why I don’t see things changing anytime soon.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Which is why I don’t see things changing anytime soon. [/quote]
unless of course Bellator or someone would challenge a monopoly
[quote]BigEasy24 wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Which is why I don’t see things changing anytime soon. [/quote]
unless of course Bellator or someone would challenge a monopoly [/quote]
Yes, that would work too, but plenty of organizations have tried thus far and except for Pride none have rivaled the UFC to date (and even Pride was not as well known to US audiences prior to Zuffa buying them out). If Bellator could do it though that would be great IMO.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]BigEasy24 wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Which is why I don’t see things changing anytime soon. [/quote]
unless of course Bellator or someone would challenge a monopoly [/quote]
Yes, that would work too, but plenty of organizations have tried thus far and except for Pride none have rivaled the UFC to date (and even Pride was not as well known to US audiences prior to Zuffa buying them out). If Bellator could do it though that would be great IMO.[/quote]
With Viacom’s money and Scott Coker’s mind they are one big idea away from being more connected to MMA. If they came up with a way to tie the smaller organizations like TitanFc, M-1 global, KSW, ETC. ETC. into being a minor league feeder system to replace KOTC amateur platform.
I would love to see it happen, but I’m waiting to see it till I believe it.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I would love to see it happen, but I’m waiting to see it till I believe it.[/quote]
Not far off when guys that prospects have clauses within TitanFc contracts that grants them release from obligations if Zuffa has a call up for them
[quote]BigEasy24 wrote:
Dana White as been employed beyond his usefulness at this point. His unwillingness to let the best fighters fight their ideologies is making the UFC look more and more like WWE or even risk acquisitions of fight fixing ALA Pride [/quote]
Exactly!
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I don’t think it’s about him dropping wrestlers as much as him dropping fighters who don’t finish people regularly or produce “exciting” (which I agree is a totally subjective term) fights. Weidman is a wrestler, Demetrius Johnson is a wrestler, Dillishaw and Cruz are both wrestlers, Lawler is a wrestler, Cormier is a wrestler, and Cain is a wrestler. None of those guys are going to get dropped any time soon though (even if they lose their belts) because they are dynamic fighters who produce exciting fights.[/quote]
Your list of grapplers pretty much proves my point. Each of them are able to strike about as well, some better, than they grapple. There are also many examples of Dana White favoring some on your list. Cain is only one example. They brought the show to Mexico so that Cain could be showcased beating a Jiu-Jitsu (grappler)guy. He did this because he wants Mexican pay per view dollars and new that Cain was going to win. But of course even Dana White can’t get what he wants all the time and Cain was knocked senseless by the grappler. Who could have known?
Also, Lawler rarely takes it to the ground anymore as he has learned that Dana White doesn’t like that. Also, Lawler has become a good enough striker and can take a good shot, so he keeps it standing. Weidman the same thing. What you are saying in essence is if the person grapples but prefers to stand and fight then White will not remove them from the UFC. Once again…a bias exists against good grappling. The words “exciting fight” are merely a euphemism for “stand and punch” to Dana White.
You are a smart guy I’ve read your posts before you know as well as I do that McGregor would have never beaten an in shape Mendes. Mendes was winning every round until he ran out of gas and tried a desparation submission. You also know that there will never ever ever be a rematch between the two. Mendes will be cheated out of a title shot because he is primarily a grappler and would beat McGregor who is apparently a money maker for White (his fights are sooooo exciting they are never on the ground).
So, again as a fan of MMA I am disgusted with not only Dana White’s manipulation of the sport and his low pay for fighters. But, also his baias against grapplers. We will never know who the real best fighters are(Mendes being the exception) as long as that bias exists.
[/quote]
First I was agreeing with you that I think Edgar would have been the better (or at least more fair) choice to have Mcgreggor fight, due to the short notice and Mendes not really being in fighting shape. He showed early in the fight that McGreggor has a definite weakness in regards to takedown defense and could be exploited by a good grappler who could set up takedowns well with striking. Had he not gassed it’s highly possible that Chad would have won that fight.
What I am saying is that it’s MMA, so yes fighters should be able to strike, wrestle, know Jiu-Jitsu and know how to defend against and transition between all of those skill sets. All of the fighters that I mentioned can do so, and all of them mix grappling and striking effectively.
What the average PPV buying fan wants IMO is:
-
above all excitement/entertainment (whether that be total skillful annihilation of edge of your seat action where it looks like the fight could end at any second)
-
finishes (people, both fighters and fans alike, have been burned way too many times by the judges to want to see them decide the winner of the fight)
-
drama (I personally hate that this is so, but the reality is that the average fan eats up the trash talking, tattoo toting, “tough guise”/“bad blood” story lines that some fighters have become masters of creating.
This is what the UFC (and White) are constantly trying to provide in order to maximize PPV buys on every show. If a fighter is not going to provide such things, then not as many people will pay for the card and the UFC won’t make as much money. Like you said, they care only about making as much profit as possible.
Finally, my comment about the fighters rights was not meant as an apology for Whites conduct, but instead as the only means that I see possible to counter such actions and fully legitimize the sport.[/quote]
Yes, I understand exactly what you are saying. But, my point is Dana White is ignoring a large part of the game by punishing grapplers for just being grapplers. And as you know there are a good many grapplers that are able to beat a good many strikers simply by taking them down and pounding them. Those are the fights that Dana White does not want because it does not consist of two men standing toe to toe and slugging it out.
And don’t you agree that this type of approach not only cheats the grapplers of the world, but also the many fans who enjoy seeing the very best man actually get to fight?
There are many other Dana White “sins” which I’ve listed in a previous post.[/quote]
I understand where you are coming from, but you are coming at things from a diehard fan’s perspective who truly appreciates and understands the sport of MMA. You are not however representative of the average fan who forks over their money to buy a PPV card. I truly wish as you do that this wasn’t the case, but unfortunately reality is not always as we would like it to be.
In an ideal world you could just sit the average fan in front of a TV set and have them watch wrestling and they would eventually come to understand and appreciate it’s intricacies. In the real world though, unless that fan actually has a desire to do so, he/she will more likely just turn off the TV or change the channel. No amount of force (well, at least no amount that the UFC can enforce on it’s viewers) is going to persuade a disinterested fan of the beauty of wrestling. Most fans of MMA are just as crappy as most fans of other major sports and so only really understand them on a very superficial level and only really recognize the big names. They could care less about learning the difference between a high crotch and a straight double leg takedown, or a switch, or a quarter Nelson, or any of the other (in my opinion awesome) skills taught in wrestling. All they care about is finishes, personalities/rivalries,drama, and excitement/emotional engagement.
This fact is painfully obvious when the audience starts booing when fights go to the ground and neither fighter makes any positional improvements or threatening submissions.
So as much as we would both like to place all the blame on Dana, we also need to accept the fact that the fan base is also partly to blame. And again, since there is no fighters Union, White can drop anyone who does not draw fans whenever he feels like it.[/quote]
Yes, of course White gives the typically ignorant fan what he wants. I am well aware of that. My point is still the same however, we are not seeing the best fighters fight one another. Hence, we are not seeing the best people in every weight division take the title. And if that is the case (and it is) what are we seeing? various “set up” (not fixed) fights to entertain and amuse the masses. And if another organization does not come along soon, or Dana White does not stop manipulating the fights this ultimately leads to fan dissatisfaction. Not in the short term of course. As long as two people are beating each other up fists ablaze they will be happy. But in the long run when many realize that they’ve been had the UFC will pay a mighty price in many ways.
[quote]BigEasy24 wrote:
which brings me to my point of how do we get a fighters union in to improve quality of fights?[/quote]
As long as the stars of the UFC are treated right, and they most assuredly are there will be no power to form a union and White knows this. He might be a greedy unfair bastard but he’s far from stupid.
Replace white with Coker?
[quote]BigEasy24 wrote:
Replace white with Coker?
[/quote]
I’d like to replace White with anyone. He reminds of the story of the fast gun who takes a job as Sheriff in the old west, does a good job and cleans up the town. The only problem is he stays too long and becomes the town bully. And now the townspeople need to replace him. So, Dana White came around at the right time and was great for MMA. But that time has long passed and he should be replaced by just about anyone.
White is a greedy manipulator of the highest order who has manipulated the sport, paid good fighters peanuts and has generally come as close to fixing (but not fixing) fights as anyone possibly can…yes I know I’ve already said that 
Well, a great deal of Dana’s power is the UFC’s reputation, I believe. When JBJ was widely known, every MMA fan knew him, the LHW champ of Bellator was someone who was anonymous to anyone except the most hardcore fans.
Most organisations are just a stepping stone for getting people in the UFC, and Bellator is getting pretty much the home of the also-ran and elderly. Everyone who likes to fight, wants to fight in the UFC. It has a rich history, which is well documented, it has the best PR team in all of combat sports, and only the top crop is recruited.
If you are mostly responsible for such a monster succes, you will have a lot of power.
[quote]Panopticum wrote:
Well, a great deal of Dana’s power is the UFC’s reputation, I believe. When JBJ was widely known, every MMA fan knew him, the LHW champ of Bellator was someone who was anonymous to anyone except the most hardcore fans.
Most organisations are just a stepping stone for getting people in the UFC, and Bellator is getting pretty much the home of the also-ran and elderly. Everyone who likes to fight, wants to fight in the UFC. It has a rich history, which is well documented, it has the best PR team in all of combat sports, and only the top crop is recruited.
If you are mostly responsible for such a monster succes, you will have a lot of power.[/quote]
Yes, of course you are correct and that’s why Dana White gets away with what he does.
[quote]Panopticum wrote:
Well, a great deal of Dana’s power is the UFC’s reputation, I believe. When JBJ was widely known, every MMA fan knew him, the LHW champ of Bellator was someone who was anonymous to anyone except the most hardcore fans.
Most organisations are just a stepping stone for getting people in the UFC, and Bellator is getting pretty much the home of the also-ran and elderly. Everyone who likes to fight, wants to fight in the UFC. It has a rich history, which is well documented, it has the best PR team in all of combat sports, and only the top crop is recruited.
If you are mostly responsible for such a monster succes, you will have a lot of power.[/quote]
But its just that the Money is the main reason why most choice the UFC not the outlier. Prime example. UFC cuts Cro-cop and when he decides to fight MMA again Bellator brings him back and similar to Rampage’s situation. Did they become better fighters as they got older? Probably not, but Viacom didn’t pay as much as the UFC did in Cro-cops case and White swallowed Pride with Jackson so it’s not about PR and fighting the best of the best