What are people’s predictions on the Randy Couture vs James Toney, boxer vs mma fight this weekend?
Anybody else beside hope Randy kicks his arrogant ass?
see ufc 118 thread
I don’t know why everyone keeps calling it Boxer V. MMA. It’s Boxer V. Wrestler/Grappler. Couture stands as much chance standing as James Toney does on the ground.
I think people are not giving Toney enough credit. Boxing is a martial art and Toney is an elite boxer. Yes he might have only trained MMA for a few months, but look at Daniel Cormier. It’s the same thing. He’s an elite level wrestler who has come into MMA and has just started training striking. Brock Lesnar was the same - wrestling background with very little striking experience.
There are countless examples of Black belt BJJ guys who come into MMA who have barely any striking ability and want to just take the fight to the ground. This is the same situation. How much hype was created about that heavy weight Judo Gold Medalist when he had started training at Xtreme Couture and was going to come into MMA (what ever happened with that guy?). How is James Toney coming in any different?
While Toney is most definitely an underdog because grapplers seem to be more dominant in MMA than strikers (as we have seen repeatedly over the years), it’s silly to keep calling this MMA V. Boxing. They are both MMA fighters. It’s grappler V. striker.
In terms of my prediction, I have James Toney winning this. I think Toney is being under estimated in the striking department of MMA. Just because they don’t kick in boxing doesn’t mean that Couture will kick him and Toney is just going to get completely confused. He’s a freaking elite level boxer for fucks sake. All he has done for 2 decades is compete in professional boxing bouts.
I assure you a couple months of sparring with leg kicks is more than enough for him to adjust his striking to leg kicks coming in. Don’t all MMA fighters learn it? Why wouldn’t someone who is so good at striking not be able to pick that up? Totally irrational point that keeps being made. Kicks, knees, elbows, clinch - it doesn’t matter, James Toney has the advantage as long as the fight is standing.
This is a boxer who is training for an MMA fight. It’s not a boxer who is coming into MMA as a boxer to compete as has been done many times in the past. Toney is well aware of everything that goes on in MMA and is training all areas of his game. It’s a very different scenario.
Obviously it’s a fight and anything can happen, but my gut tells me Toney will pull this one off.
I think Couture takes it, but the betting odds that I’ve seen (-700 Couture, +500 Toney) are way too dismissive of Toney.
Coutore is going to kill him. It won’t be close. Probably some kind of submission in the late first round.
I’ve got Couture, because Toney looks out of shape. This is not the same Toney we saw against Holyfield, RJJ, etc, who would have given Randy a great fight. This is the Toney who was gassed out by round 3 against an out of shape Sam Peter. If he doesn’t get the knockout in the first miunute, he’s not getting it.
Contrast this with Couture, who could probably break off every guy on this board in the gym and then get in the ring with everyone on Bullshido and kick their ass. I know he is training like a madman, so his condition is not at issue. Yeah, he’s going to have to watch the short punches, they’re going to be a lot shorter and harder than he’s used to.
And yes, lunching into a punch is what got him beat before. Still, I don’t think Toney is used to MMA footwork yet, and he can’t hug it out and pray for a split decision like he has most of his recent fights.
good post greendopper
good post devildog
Toney needs another fight camp to be a threat.
the boxing plan of not training all year and then
going for a 6 week camp isn’t enough time to evolve or
truly get in shape.
He has barely trained in his last few fights,
but seems to have put in some work
in the viral video’s floating around.
He is still dangerous, yet probably far to one dimensional and poorly conditioned
to make it competitive
[quote]Jack_Dempsey wrote:
I think Couture takes it, but the betting odds that I’ve seen (-700 Couture, +500 Toney) are way too dismissive of Toney. [/quote]
Not at all.
[quote]greenhopper wrote:
I don’t know why everyone keeps calling it Boxer V. MMA. It’s Boxer V. Wrestler/Grappler. Couture stands as much chance standing as James Toney does on the ground.
I think people are not giving Toney enough credit. Boxing is a martial art and Toney is an elite boxer. Yes he might have only trained MMA for a few months, but look at Daniel Cormier. It’s the same thing. He’s an elite level wrestler who has come into MMA and has just started training striking. Brock Lesnar was the same - wrestling background with very little striking experience.
There are countless examples of Black belt BJJ guys who come into MMA who have barely any striking ability and want to just take the fight to the ground. This is the same situation. How much hype was created about that heavy weight Judo Gold Medalist when he had started training at Xtreme Couture and was going to come into MMA (what ever happened with that guy?). How is James Toney coming in any different?
While Toney is most definitely an underdog because grapplers seem to be more dominant in MMA than strikers (as we have seen repeatedly over the years), it’s silly to keep calling this MMA V. Boxing. They are both MMA fighters. It’s grappler V. striker.
In terms of my prediction, I have James Toney winning this. I think Toney is being under estimated in the striking department of MMA. Just because they don’t kick in boxing doesn’t mean that Couture will kick him and Toney is just going to get completely confused. He’s a freaking elite level boxer for fucks sake. All he has done for 2 decades is compete in professional boxing bouts.
I assure you a couple months of sparring with leg kicks is more than enough for him to adjust his striking to leg kicks coming in. Don’t all MMA fighters learn it? Why wouldn’t someone who is so good at striking not be able to pick that up? Totally irrational point that keeps being made. Kicks, knees, elbows, clinch - it doesn’t matter, James Toney has the advantage as long as the fight is standing.
This is a boxer who is training for an MMA fight. It’s not a boxer who is coming into MMA as a boxer to compete as has been done many times in the past. Toney is well aware of everything that goes on in MMA and is training all areas of his game. It’s a very different scenario.
Obviously it’s a fight and anything can happen, but my gut tells me Toney will pull this one off.
[/quote]
Your comparisons hold almost no water, though on the surface, they seem logical. Toney is an elite boxer, but striking in MMA is a totally different game. Techniques that are illegal in boxing are used heavily in MMA, further, the stances and angles are completely different. Besides, Randy would be stupid to stand and bang with Toney. He’ll hit a few leg kicks, take him down and do a little ground and pound. He’ll keep doing so aggressively to get points for three rounds. If Toney isn’t fully prepared to defend on the ground, which takes years of training, he’ll likely make a mistake and get tapped out.
Toney really has no chance against an elite MMA guy, which Randy still is. They should’ve kept Kimbo and put those two against each other.
everybody has a different stance…how are the angles that much different really…ive done muay thai, ive done boxing, ive had guys try to shoot on me…i had the same stance each time, boxing just taught me much better footwork and how to actually get the upper hand on angles.
rasturai, I don’t think Toney’s footwork is all that impressive. His hands, yes, but his feet are average at best. Coming in heavy and relatively unconditioned (at least from the prep videos I saw), I doubt his feet stay even average past the first round. Regardless, it’s certainly not so advanced that Randy is giving up octagon control to him.
The thing that makes Toney most dangerous, his powerful short game, is also his weakness. Toney has to get close to Couture without getting taken down for his best punches to work. Randy isn’t stopping at punching range, he’s going straight from leg kicking range to a clinch or takedown. And he’s done that before against some fighters with footwork better than James Toney’s. Their hands weren’t as dangerous, but they didn’t connect and I’m laying money that neither will Toney.
The only thing that concerns me, other than the obvious puncher’s chance, is Randy’s age. Will the years and the beatings finally slow him down too much so that he eats an uppercut on his way in? It happened against Chuck Liddell, but you could see Randy getting frustrated by Chuck’s wrestling in that one. I don’t think Toney can last long enough to frustrate Randy, he’s either going to take it early or get bent into weird shapes on the mat.
[quote]rasturai wrote:
everybody has a different stance…how are the angles that much different really…ive done muay thai, ive done boxing, ive had guys try to shoot on me…i had the same stance each time, boxing just taught me much better footwork and how to actually get the upper hand on angles.[/quote]
Boxing’s stance is more staggered, mma is more square. Think of a typical Thai stance it’s square for a reason.
[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
rasturai, I don’t think Toney’s footwork is all that impressive. His hands, yes, but his feet are average at best. Coming in heavy and relatively unconditioned (at least from the prep videos I saw), I doubt his feet stay even average past the first round. Regardless, it’s certainly not so advanced that Randy is giving up octagon control to him.
The thing that makes Toney most dangerous, his powerful short game, is also his weakness. Toney has to get close to Couture without getting taken down for his best punches to work. Randy isn’t stopping at punching range, he’s going straight from leg kicking range to a clinch or takedown. And he’s done that before against some fighters with footwork better than James Toney’s. Their hands weren’t as dangerous, but they didn’t connect and I’m laying money that neither will Toney.
The only thing that concerns me, other than the obvious puncher’s chance, is Randy’s age. Will the years and the beatings finally slow him down too much so that he eats an uppercut on his way in? It happened against Chuck Liddell, but you could see Randy getting frustrated by Chuck’s wrestling in that one. I don’t think Toney can last long enough to frustrate Randy, he’s either going to take it early or get bent into weird shapes on the mat.[/quote]
Not to worry, the fight will end approximately 48.7 seconds after Couture takes Toney to the ground. And he will be able to take Toney to the ground at will. So, because he’s a cautious, smart fighter let’s give Couture another about 1:30 to get him to the ground. There you have it. Couture wins in 2:18.7 of the first round.
Seriously though, Toney has about as much chance of beating Couture as any of us do of convincing another poster on this forum that they’re wrong.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Seriously though, Toney has about as much chance of beating Couture as any of us do of convincing another poster on this forum that they’re wrong. [/quote]
i totally disagree…haha, just kidding…words of wisdom
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]rasturai wrote:
everybody has a different stance…how are the angles that much different really…ive done muay thai, ive done boxing, ive had guys try to shoot on me…i had the same stance each time, boxing just taught me much better footwork and how to actually get the upper hand on angles.[/quote]
Boxing’s stance is more staggered, mma is more square. Think of a typical Thai stance it’s square for a reason.[/quote]
Lot’s of thai’s are switching their stance to the western stance, they had written this in an article in the magazine International Kickboxer. In boxing…if your a boxer your stance won’t be as square, if your more of a brawler…your stance WILL be more square…the difference is…it doesn’t matter how square you are…boxers sometimes stand almost in a football stance when close to their oppenent…the difference is that it doesn’t matter if your feet are squared or staggered when on the inside…make sure your body is tilted and isn’t square as well…because then you have absolutely no defence for an uppercut…ive gotten caught like this before, tilt that body to nulify the uppercut. If a boxer wre to learn thai clinch, it really wouldn’t be that much of a difference…on the inside my feet are always square…for me to put my hands on someones neck isn’t hard. having done muay thai and boxing…it’s an easy transition…a lot of the thai’s stand infront of eachother directly square and kick and punch at eachother and all they do is take it or block…square…you have to realize these are 130lb thai fighters doing this to eachother…there’s a reason you don’t see Badr Hari and the likes doing this. That method for heavy hitters is not effective…they hit too hard, they can’t play that game. It’s mostly the lightweights in muay thai that do that.
I’d post videos to show you all the differences…but I’m kinda lazy right now, I may do it later though.
ZEB - your right Couture has a huge advantage in winning this fight, and like you said…he will take him down at will…randy couture said he doesnt want to knock him out, he wants to beat his ass…and thats what hes gonna do…take him down and just stomp him out lol.
Regardless…hope James ko’s him lol.
Stop implying James Toney did any kind of serious training for this fight. He left Juanito Ibarra (who does have a history of adapting boxing for MMA) to join some joke-ass “Kenpo 5.0” school headed by a guy called Trevor Sherman who has never trained any one worth a damn. Then he showed up fatter than he’s ever been for a boxing match, and people are saying he’s being underestimated? What a joke. He’s 42 years old, fat, unmotivated, brain damaged, and fighting a legitimate top light/heavyweight for his first MMA fight - that is how he is different from Daniel Cormier.
Who brought up Cormier?