VINCE, you still haven’t got the point. Some of us who posted have been OBESE and have changed and lost weight. All it takes is effort. I read up on dieting and although I dieted wrong at first I still lost weight and also a little muscle. But I learned more and adjusted my diet and lost more weight. These people are in denial about their weight problem and eating habits. When I was 242(only 5’7) I used to think to myself that there is now way I look 242. Now, when I see pictures of myself at this weight I think Man what a fat ass. I also used to think that I didn’t eat much. When I look back on it, I now realize I eat a whole shitload. I ate Fat free chips thinking that they are"fat Free"; THey can’t get me fat. Fatness can creep up on me pretty fast, so I definitely know something about it.
Vince, why do you insist on insulting the intellect of the T-Mag forum users? Your comment about “a good university library and research” is by far the most hypocritical and ignorant sounding thing you’ve yet to post.
By the way, have you read a particular comment on the original NAAFA thread? I’m referring to the nazi concentration camp 3% body-fat post. Not exactly science or sensitivity training material, but it is priceless! I suggest that you have a look at it and then re-evaluate your position on NAAFA and this thread as a whole.
You can send those fat women over here any time to challenge us, we welcome such a challenge. Better yet send them over here and have them start asking some questions about how to lose the fat.
You have it all wrong. I don’t hate them, I love them. For them same reason I love gays and lesbos or the rise of an ethnic group other than mine…because it makes me more of a commodity. Literally, your pathetic views on life make me more valuable. I would blow my head of if I lived in your “poor lil’ ol’ me world.” But seriously Vince- this post of yours, however despised you may be, you really no how to market to the LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR. Way to go get yours mate. I will be vacationing in Sydney soon. Know any rich old fat ladies I could prey on? I will split the proceeds with you if you find me a really lonely one.
We both agree that Vince doesn’t have a clue, but what’s with the ‘Aussie’ insults? Vince Basile is hardly representative of a typical Aussie citizen. We are not all blubber-loving, head-up-our-ass dipshits here in Oz! If I disagreed with something that someone from the US said on this forum I would NOT feel compelled to call them an ‘American asshole’ or anything similar. Don’t forget that when your country (I am assuming you are in the States) was attacked by terrorist assholes last year Australia was one of the first countries to join the military effort.
boombam.
Vince, you are still pushing the same old excuse-making bullshit. ‘What it all boils down to’ is that the level of difficulty of achieving different goals will always vary from person to person. BUT- whatever the handicap, be it poverty, obesity, being underweight, lack of knowledge etc, it can be overcome if a person wants it badly enough. I have no doubt that many fat people have sincerely tried to lose weight and failed. The solution however, is not to give up and whine ‘oh woe is me, all is hopeless, I’ll never lose weight’. (Unfortunately people like yourself encourage such self-pitying nonsense). You keep trying, researching, experimenting until you find what works. This applies to success in any endeavour, not just losing weight.
I have met people who claim they have tried everything to lose weight and I know damn well they haven’t tried a low carb ‘paleo style’ diet ( many refuse to believe that ‘all that meat and fat’ will be better for them than their ‘low-fat’ insulin-bouncing rice cakes, cereals, breads, noodles etc) and consistently hitting the gym four times a week ( to train intensely with weights, not sit comatose on a stationary bike and pedal half-assed on the spot for a half hour).
You claim once again we are not fat loss experts. However out of all the people in this thread you are actually the last person I would place in charge of someone’s fat loss regimen, because your defeatist attitude towards fat loss would ensure a high likelihood of failure. Others in this thread have obviously successfully used their knowledge (whether you consider it to be ‘expert-level’ or not) to lose excess bodyfat and/or help others to do the same ( I have helped many others do this. I am always happy to help someone who is genuinely trying, but I have little time for people who whine a lot and try little).
Ironically you allude to some of the causes of obesity in your last post. Yes modern civilisation, as much as I love technology, has increased the amount and types of food available, and has decreased the role of physical activity in our daily activities. So what? Start eating properly and start moving your ass around a bit more, as nature intended you to!!! At the end of the day no-one is forcing you to eat incorrectly and to be sedentary. Even if it is only a 100 calories above maintenence level over time that is causing the problem, so what? All the factors I have mentioned still apply. The diet still needs to be assessed and modified and/or activity increased…
“Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed”
Giving someone advice about losing fat does not require a degree or any research. It is common sense. Most of the time the fat person who desires to lose weight knows what to do as well. Anyway, I agree that one should not make fun of fat people. If a fat person is not losing weight, then they taking in too many calories, and not expending enough calories.
I didn’t make fun of them…I found one post that I thought was funny and would share with others who would be amused. I am sure there are hundreds of posts on this site that you could take to the fine ladies at NAAFA and they would have a laugh. It just seems to me that the one thing people today are good at losing is their sense of humor. Oh wait, it is my genetics that cause my sense of humor, therefore it is not even my fault that I laughed at that. Or wait, it was my environment, I grew up with a Dad that thought it was funny when I had friends over to come in the room, fart, and leave. Just because my sense of humor differs, doesn’t mean I am a bad person. I would have to say some of the funniest, crudest comments I have ever made in my life are about myself. I think someone on this board proposed an island where only T-men and T-Vixens were to be allowed…Has anyone followed up on that, because it doesn’t sound like that bad of an idea…
We as a nation are getting fatter because our lives are no longer active. I have no choice but to drive to work every day, as do most people. Many more jobs in our country now involve sitting behind a desk working on computers, and it has become harder to eat healthy meals. Every day a quarter of the people in this country will visit a fast food joint because of the low cost and convenience. The fact is we live in a society where we no longer have to be active as part of our daily routine and if we don’t make up for this somehow, we will get fatter and fatter. All of this means that we have to be more careful what we eat and spend more free time to be active, is it easy? No, but lifes a bitch, get a fucking helmet!
I can’t believe the extent this thread is going! And the intelligent comments are something else. Bravo people!
Anyways, yes our society is to blame for our inactive lives. To me that also sounds a bit defeatist. So what if our lifestyle supports more sitting and less activity. It doesn’t mean we have to leave it that way. Perhaps we sit more when we are at work (or posting rants on T-mag forum!) but after that we are free to choose what we do with our weekends and our evenings. When we choose to watch TV all night instead of walking, running, swimming, playing outside with our children, walking dogs, etc. etc. That’s a choice. When we buy a ride-on lawnmower instead of a walk behind one. That’s a choice. When we choose to eat at McDonalds instead of cooking up some lean red meat or a chicken breast. That’s a choice. Get my point? We don’t have to choose the sedentary lifestyle if we don’t want to.
Yes, perhaps fat people have tried exercising and dieting, but if they haven’t derived ANY results at all–then it must be for lack of true effort or committment. Once again, we all expect this stuff to work miraculously fast. Oh, I’ll give it two weeks–maybe. But I’ll sneak my Oreos at night when nobody is looking. Ha. Willpower is very tough, but absolutely necessary to achieve anything.
And hard work is most important. And herein lies the biggest problem–we do not like to work hard, as a society. We want things fast and quick and easy and if it doesn’t happen that way–well we just give up. Usually. Pretty sad, I think.
Vince, I think the thing with you is just this: YOU LIKE FAT WOMEN and therefore want them to stay that way. If everyone dieted and exercised properly you wouldn’t have anyone to fulfill your fantasy.
Yo Boomman- I was just going for the juglar on that whiney bastard. And to all good T-bros and sisters from the land of OZ, I love you guys. I apologize if the wording of my roast seemed to be aimed at Oz herself. That is not the way I feel about all Aussies. Australia is one of the worlds best sources for drugs and this guy is an x bodybuilder from an era when drugs were not controversial at all. Sure he didn’t use…Vince is just Richard Simmon’s does Australia. Did anyone else laugh when this dick head said he “designed and built his own gym equipment.” Holy shit. No wonder they are not getting results…T-men need no machines or big equipment to achieve excellence. We have Renegades, Westsiders and Melters all seeing eye to eye on you now Vinny. I can just hear Vince now at his first Personal Trainer session of day with a typical client. “Oh, don’t worry yourself with lifting weights, that is for genetically gifted people. You just need to sit here on my scientifically designed exercise apparatus. See you just use two fingers and we are able to isolate you adipose tissue.” On another note: I wonder what ol’ Vinny uses to bolt down that shit, probably firehydrant grade bolts.
Oh man this is really something. I have read T-mag for years and even though I know what to do chose to ignore it. The price 5’10 245lbs @ 22% bodyfat. I thought it was my fault for not doing what I knew to be true. Now I realize thanks to Vince and the NAAFA crew that it isn’t my fault and the reason I gained weight (notice I didn’t say fat…) was because I am a
- a rebel against society
- genetically predisposed to be fat
- blah blah blah
Look I started Meltdown training this week with my wife and her cousin. My wife is overfat also but her cousin is definitely obese. She is at 185lbs at only 4’11"…However she is eating they way I know we should, which is anabolic diet with only one carb-up meal per week. I know it’s only been 4 or 5 days but she’s excited. She’s sore as hell but she is busting her ass in the gym. She says she doesn’t like the exercises BUT she doesn’t like being obese worse of all.
Vince!! Did you get that! It isn’t about what society says or how we’ve been conditioned. Let’s face it guys we all knew slow mo cardio wasn’t really cutting it(pun intended). Deep down, really deep for some; people with over 25% bodyfat know they are not healthy. Sure “research has found…”
News Flash I’ve conducted research and worked on experiments and you know what? The investigator usually publishes the data which supports his theories.
Vince do all of us a favor and coddle a great white shark because these creatures are genetic eating machines unlike the SLOTHFUL ones you seem to defend so romantically.
“In the valley of the blind the man with 1 eye is king”
For VInce: “In the valley of the obese the man who can still see his feet is king…”
My hero!!
I don’t know my fine, fellow T-People. I"m starting to like this idea of being a “genetic wonder”. I’m likening it to being a “super hero” of the modern world.
"You say FAT? Ha - I laugh at fat! HA! Fat falls of of ME! I am impurviousto fat! Now...I MUST go and save the world from the evil grips of Mister Olestra!!!!"
Thanks, Vince. For opening my eyes. I am a lean, fit person - not because of my common sense, or the fact that I'm physically active. I wasn't able to get my BF to 10-11% cuz of actually becoming knowledgable with nutrition. Nope. It's cuz I'm a genetic freakazoid. So, I can sit around in front of the TV, eat til the cows come home and then eat the cow, not do a damn thing - and NOT GET FAT. You're *brilliant*. It's gotta be them book smarts you chide us about here on the forum.
I wonder when them people you say you care about will realize that you really aren't helping them. And essentially don't care about them.
Vince – Once again you’re just attempting to rationalize away the fact that these fat people won’t discipline themselves to the extent necessary to effectuate fat loss, either in terms of their diet or in terms of their exercise (when in reality they need to do BOTH).
Your first example about eating 100 extra calories a day and ending up 100 lbs. heavier in 10 years was quite interesting as an example of how becoming a lard bucket could just “sneak up” on you. However, I think you forgot one little detail: We wear clothes. And the same clothes won’t fit as one keeps getting fatter and fatter. Do you think that the fact that a person has to continually buy bigger and bigger clothes, until he or she has to go to special Big-and-Fat stores or order clothes in the jumbo-super-XXL size off of the internet might serve as a clue that the person is becoming a big tub of goo? Not to mention the fact that the idea of anyone eating the exact same caloric excess over that long a period (hell, even for a month if not keeping track of what is consumed) is ridiculous. These people did not wake up fat one morning. It did not sneak up on them. They may have been in denial about it, but they had to know.
Now, as to your studies. I've actually checked out a few of those, and you know what the common flaw is in those studies that ask fat people to report how much they're eating and whether their weight-loss programs work: They all require only ex post self reporting and have no monitoring. Show me one study where fat people were placed in a sterile environment and given a controlled hypocaloric diet and an intense daily exercise program that failed to work -- just one -- and maybe you can demonstrate that your claims have some merit. The only studies I can recall seeing that actually did track what fat people ate were designed to see how much these folks actually ate, and they showed they constantly underreported their caloric intake. So no, we don't believe them when they say they don't eat much.
In contrast with your self-reporting studies, many of the people on this forum have either successfully lost a large amount of weight themselves, helped someone else lose a large amount of weight, helped someone who failed to lose weight, or some combination thereof. Those who request help are usually friends or family members, whom we see all the time. We see them cheating on their diets, not working out the way they were instructed, sitting on the couch, ordering late-night pizzas, and generally doing all the things that don't get reported as reasons for failure in those self-reporting studies. Go back and re-read the number of posts on just this thread from people who have family members who "can't" drop weight and why.
Finally, here's an example from an email my buddy sent me in response to an email I sent him asking why he hadn't responded to this thread:
(3-L), when I read some of those posts it puts me in a foul mood for the rest of the day. Mostly what I feel though is disgusted and sad for some of these individuals. And angry. Whenever I need motivation to go to the gym I just punch up the old NAAFA website and I get so mad I can barely see or even think straight. Most of the "fatties" I know have the willpower of an untrained, hungry dog. Here's an example of why I try not to "entertain" these people anymore. There's this woman I work with who is always complaining about her weight. To her credit she lost about forty lbs in the last year (and she'd be a really pretty girl if she lost another 20-30). Most of her weight loss came about as the result of getting off her ass and jogging everyday (and the motivation came from a small heart attack, she's 24 BTW). At a certain level of obesity a person can do almost anything and lose weight. But as she got closer to the normal range her progress slowed (obviously) and she became discouraged. She asked me for help and since she seems like a highly motivated individual, I gave it. I told her how to eat, why and how she needed to change her weight routine (I don't care what anyone says, you will never tone your upper arm by doing tricep kickbacks), why the cardio wasn't working anymore, and why certain food combinations were bad. A couple weeks go by and what do I see her doing? Eating pizza (lots of it), drinking soda (with sugar), and talking to her friend about how she could never give up potatoes! Days later I run into her at the gym and what is she doing? Not German Body Comp, but lots of upperbody isolation movements. Argh! This kind of thing has happened to me before, too. And I keep falling for it.
There ya go Vince. So keep telling us about your self-reported studies, and how much you learn from watching people for an hour a day at your gym. The laws of physics and chemistry don't lie. All of these obese people do not have glandular problems -- you yourself are actually pointing out the reasons why these people are fat, but you're making them sound like excuses: no exercise combined with eating too much. With us you're getting a lot more real-world observations about what causes the "failures" of these weight-loss programs. But to quote you, "People would rather die in this world than change their crazy beliefs," so I don't expect too much. Out.
Ah Vince, in your long-winded endless paragraph you proved ALL of your own posts WRONG. Let me show you…
"Simple things like watching TV can make us inactive for a couple of hours a day." THEN TURN IT OFF! Watching TV is a choice or are people being chained to their chairs?
"Now many of us drive to shopping centers." Driving instead of walking is a CHOISE.
“We also have the food companies marketing yummy food and who can resist those treats from time to time?” None of that food is in my house! I CHOOSE not to buy it!
“What I am trying to show is that no one is to blame for our modern society and its benefits.” BUT everyone is to blame for CHOOSING to do destructive things.
To compile YOUR arguments, you state that people do less yet eat more and are now fat. SO if you do more and eat less you will not be fat. Simple logic… using your own words. Don’t side step this one. Sorry, it won’t happen, because your degrees and scientific knowledge is exactly what is proving your own words to be a pile of horse shit. (and working in a barn for years shoveling the stuff has made me an expert on horse shit.)
Here is the thing Vince, you sound like one of those smokers who is suing tobacco companies. If you choose to smoke you choose to get sick. This is no different. If you choose to eat 100 extra calories a day and gain 10 pounds a year then you choose to gain 250 pounds in 25 years! If someone took 25 years to put on 250 pounds why on earth do they expect to lose a 25 year gain in 2 months? You may be able to lose it in half the time or a quarter of the time… but not in 1 % of the time. THAT is why they fail. They want an immediate fix to something that took YEARS to build. Why can’t they eat 200 less calories a day and lose the weight over the next 12 years? Your own “logic” defeats itself.
Once again, you are a defeatist victim that is blaming everyone but the people responsible for their own condition.
Vince has an ulterior motive, and I’ll reiterate. He’s trying to impress the fatties that he wants to bed. Jeez Vince, you went to all that trouble to get multiple degrees, buy a gym, and win a bodybuilding contest so that you could speak with some “authority” and soothe the feelings of these women? Man, why not just take them to a buffet?!?
Some time last year 60 Minutes ran a segment titled “Fat City” about the diet centers in Durham, NC. Durham is the home of several scientific diet clinics that make up a large portion of the community’s economy (hence the title).
The one personal testimonial that stuck in my mind was of a successful lawyer from LA, or some other major urban centre, who visited a particular clinic in Durham every year. She shells out big bucks plus a month or so of her time every year to lose weight only to return to the same lifestyle and gain it all back. After all her trips, she no longer has the excuse that she can’t loose weight no matter what she tries, has bad genetics or doesn’t know what to do yet she continually returns to her self-destructive habits.
You could say this is the poster-girl for the problem many have - even with proper knowledge and experience, she is unwilling to change her lifestyle to combat her obesity.
Vince, you will also note the above has no tie-in with the “body building lifestyle”. I myself am new to the knowledge offered here at T-mag. Yet even before knowing any of this I was able to go from 210 down to 155 (at a height of 5’6") in a little over a year & a half. I cut out most junk food, stopped snacking at night, only filled my plate once at meal times, and did Tae-Bo (of all things!) 5 days a week in my basement. Of course it probably would have gone quicker with better results if I knew what I know now, but that’s life! Now I am looking forward to getting bigger and stronger (but that’s a separate thread all together).
Denis
I had another thought about all of this today as I was driving (yes, not walking–25 miles or more is a bit far to walk and be in on time) to work today. And that is this: diets and exercise do not work for most fat people (until true motivation and determination kicks in) because THEY LIKE TO EAT AND THEY DON’T LIKE TO EXERCISE. It makes a huge difference when you like the physical activity that you choose. Despite the aches and pains that go with weight lifting, those of us that do it like it and like the way we look and feel. Obese people got that way because they generally do not like to move around. They were the kids that did not do sports, or got laughed at trying, or whatever, and did not develop the desire and love for doing something physical. Therefore, if you only go to the gym because you feel you have to, but hate going, it isn’t going to last very long, especially coupled with the “I want a quick fix” thing. This isn’t an excuse not to go, but possibly the reason why it doesn’t work for them. Similarly, eating becomes almost a hobby, or an activity. When children are bored they often turn to food as an activity - “I don’t know what to do, so I think I will eat”. If they do this often enough and eat the wrong kind of food and never burn it off–well you know what happens. It then becomes a cycle that turns around to bite them.
I think we really need to focus our attentions on the young people in our societies and make sure that they get moving and eating well. There are reports daily on the news about the growing obesity among children, the lack of physical activity, parents who are afraid to let kids out to play, parents who won’t send their kids out to play, etc. etc. Some schools in the States are even sending letters home to parents of obese kids, alerting them to the fact, and danger, of their child’s obesity! As if they can’t notice.It’s not good enough anymore to say they can’t help it. They’ve tried everything. Such large percentages of our population couldn’t possibly be genetically inclined to obesity. It’s not possible.
Perhaps if we stop saying “it’s okay that you’re fat” and got angry instead, or taxed fat food, then the motivation would kick in.
Like Michelle said, and I have said, it’s all a CHOICE and nobody else can make it for you. They stay fat because they choose to stay fat. End of story.
Vince you stated “Suppose one eats 100 calories a day over what is needed by the body. That means, on average, one would gain a pound of fat every 35 days or so. That adds up to about 10 pounds in a year. Who here would charge someone with overeating if they ate only 100 extra calories a day? That is not being a glutton.”
Well this is incorrect because you do not take into account that as you gain weight, your maintenance calories also increase. Thus less and less of the 100 calories go toward added fat and more and more go towards maintaining your current weight, until your weight levels out. For example, a 150 lb person, using 15 calories per lb. of bodyweight, would need 2,250 daily calories to maintain weight. Adding an additional daily average of 100 calories would level out to a new weight of 156.67 lb. (2,250+100= 2,350/15=156.67)in 2,307 days (check for yourself in a spreadsheet). To gain an additional 100 lbs, this person would need to ingest a whopping additional daily average of 1,500 calories to reach 250lb. in 2,938 days.
It seems to me that you try to catch boomerangs with your head!!!
Now they are making fun of Vince on the NAAFA board for making such poor arguements over here…