Fat Loss Stalling

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
I’m not attacking you, OP. I’m sorry if it came off like that. Diet isn’t everything, however - you’re already limiting yourself (based on your previously stated macros) to less than 1500 calories per day! You can’t really lower calories a whole lot more, man, at least not without failing to get in everything you need. When fat loss stalls in terms of your diet, sometimes you have to change up your activities (alter your training strategy, include more cardio, etc.). Fact - a set of 6 back squats with 225 is a LOT harder and generates WAY more EPOC than a set of 20 goblet squats with a 50 lb. dumbbell.

And I’m a big fan of rows, but it looks like you’re doing everything with cables only, and that seriously limits the amount of weight you’re able to use, which in turn limits the amount of strength you’re able to build. It’s really that simple.

As for pressing, floor presses still don’t make sense for the reason I gave before - if you work a muscle exclusively through a limited range of motion, you predispose yourself to further injuries. And I don’t really understand why you can do incline db presses if you can’t overhead press OR press on the horizontal plane.

Finally, “there are ways of becoming fast or generating force other than just barbells” - true and false. Plyometrics sure can increase your vertical jump, but olympic lifters generally have exceptional jumping capabilities derived just from constant work on the squat. More importantly, however, as I stated before, certain exercises simply don’t allow for significant loading (like triceps kickbacks, for example), which seriously limits one’s ability to develop strength by doing them.

Anyway, the point is that if you want to burn more body fat, you really need to look into other ways of expending calories. You’re already at a relatively low number of calories. [/quote]

As for the Goblet squat it (I will probably get flamed for this) was a 100lber with a band looped around the DB and my feet.
As with the rows hell I’ve been told to drop weight if i don’t actively retract the scapula first before I begin to row. And I can understand where the coach is coming from with my history and all.
The floor presses ARE for the reduced ROM. On the incline DB bench I don’t go all the way down same with the rowing I don;t go past the mid body.

“if you work a muscle exclusively through a limited range of motion, you predispose yourself to further injuries.” This is not true, but this is not the place for that discussion. And I’m not doing “kickbacks” its funny how I said something and kickbacks is what you heard.

But
This guy invented the corrective exercise, that is what he is own for, hence the reason I went to him so if he has me doing reduced ROM then that is what he wants me to be doing. My and your training goals are not alike, so I don’t see why the training or exercise selection has to be. Mine and your body is not alike, the history is not alike, etc.
I appreciate your concern, but this guy trains professionals, Olympians, I trust what he is doing.

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
also, you could go full ketogenic diet. Get rid of most of your carbs and keep your fats and proteins high. That might spark some more fat loss, but you’ll feel terrible for at least a week and your strength will probably go down a bit.
[/quote]

I am terrible with a ketogenic diet.
And it would not work with me, I’ve tried it before.

This also goes to show that just because you ‘progressively overload’ the deadlift does not mean that you will look impressive. Just sayin’. No offense OP but I highly doubt that diet is your issue. Your muscles are either not getting a stimulus to grow (which could be because you are simply moving weight and not feeling certain muscles work) or you have some sort of hormonal/endocrine issue. I mean, someone who trains properly should be able to eat peanut butter sandwiches all day and still look like they have a muscular physique.

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
if the guy wants to cut, let him cut. Don’t really see why there’s responses in this thread saying he shouldn’t. His goals are is own.

OP - I really don’t like the look of your diet at all. Pulsing that amount of protein is just weird.

Get some lean meat and green stuff in you instead. It’ll be healthier and I’ll bet good money it’ll be more effective.

Consider carb cycling or carb backloading.[/quote]

Thank you, thank you, thank you

I can’t have “lean meats” I’m (here comes the flaming, though it shouldn’t) I’m lacto vegetarian.
How would you have me carb cycling or carb backloading?
Was I not basically carb back loading?
Protein through out the day and carbs before sleep?

[quote]young n wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
also, you could go full ketogenic diet. Get rid of most of your carbs and keep your fats and proteins high. That might spark some more fat loss, but you’ll feel terrible for at least a week and your strength will probably go down a bit.
[/quote]

I am terrible with a ketogenic diet.
And it would not work with me, I’ve tried it before.[/quote]

Fair enough. Easiest way for me to lose weight, but I am absolutely miserable on it anyway.

[quote]young n wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
I’m not attacking you, OP. I’m sorry if it came off like that. Diet isn’t everything, however - you’re already limiting yourself (based on your previously stated macros) to less than 1500 calories per day! You can’t really lower calories a whole lot more, man, at least not without failing to get in everything you need. When fat loss stalls in terms of your diet, sometimes you have to change up your activities (alter your training strategy, include more cardio, etc.). Fact - a set of 6 back squats with 225 is a LOT harder and generates WAY more EPOC than a set of 20 goblet squats with a 50 lb. dumbbell.

And I’m a big fan of rows, but it looks like you’re doing everything with cables only, and that seriously limits the amount of weight you’re able to use, which in turn limits the amount of strength you’re able to build. It’s really that simple.

As for pressing, floor presses still don’t make sense for the reason I gave before - if you work a muscle exclusively through a limited range of motion, you predispose yourself to further injuries. And I don’t really understand why you can do incline db presses if you can’t overhead press OR press on the horizontal plane.

Finally, “there are ways of becoming fast or generating force other than just barbells” - true and false. Plyometrics sure can increase your vertical jump, but olympic lifters generally have exceptional jumping capabilities derived just from constant work on the squat. More importantly, however, as I stated before, certain exercises simply don’t allow for significant loading (like triceps kickbacks, for example), which seriously limits one’s ability to develop strength by doing them.

Anyway, the point is that if you want to burn more body fat, you really need to look into other ways of expending calories. You’re already at a relatively low number of calories. [/quote]

As for the Goblet squat it (I will probably get flamed for this) was a 100lber with a band looped around the DB and my feet.
As with the rows hell I’ve been told to drop weight if i don’t actively retract the scapula first before I begin to row. And I can understand where the coach is coming from with my history and all.
The floor presses ARE for the reduced ROM. On the incline DB bench I don’t go all the way down same with the rowing I don;t go past the mid body.

“if you work a muscle exclusively through a limited range of motion, you predispose yourself to further injuries.” This is not true, but this is not the place for that discussion. And I’m not doing “kickbacks” its funny how I said something and kickbacks is what you heard.

But
This guy invented the corrective exercise, that is what he is own for, hence the reason I went to him so if he has me doing reduced ROM then that is what he wants me to be doing. My and your training goals are not alike, so I don’t see why the training or exercise selection has to be. Mine and your body is not alike, the history is not alike, etc.
I appreciate your concern, but this guy trains professionals, Olympians, I trust what he is doing.[/quote]

Also fair enough. We can agree to disagree about the necessity of full-range of motion exercises. Nevertheless, my main point stays the same - you’ve got to burn more calories, not eat fewer. You’re already taking in a very small amount of calories.

[quote]young n wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
if the guy wants to cut, let him cut. Don’t really see why there’s responses in this thread saying he shouldn’t. His goals are is own.

OP - I really don’t like the look of your diet at all. Pulsing that amount of protein is just weird.

Get some lean meat and green stuff in you instead. It’ll be healthier and I’ll bet good money it’ll be more effective.

Consider carb cycling or carb backloading.[/quote]

Thank you, thank you, thank you

I can’t have “lean meats” I’m (here comes the flaming, though it shouldn’t) I’m lacto vegetarian.
How would you have me carb cycling or carb backloading?
Was I not basically carb back loading?
Protein through out the day and carbs before sleep?[/quote]

ok well the lacto-vegetarian thing makes it harder but not impossible. I would still have fibrous veg and whey protein instead of pulsing protein. You will feel fuller, and you will get a lot more nutrients that way.

Yeah you were carb backloading, but I meant more in terms of the way in which John Kiefer recommends, adapted for your situation.

The way I would do it would be:

-fast a few hours upon waking
-loads of green stuff and protein powders (reliance on protein powders is not ideal IMO but needs must
-starchy vegetables in the evening post training + protein supps

it might be more total calories than you are eating, but it will be MUCH better for you and I think it will provide healthier results both in fat loss and muscle building.

you could step it up a gear after a while and add a carb cycling element by only carbing up every other day, but I would stick to the nightly carb ups at first to see how they go.

A once weekly refeed might be something you want to incorporate too.

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]young n wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
I’m not attacking you, OP. I’m sorry if it came off like that. Diet isn’t everything, however - you’re already limiting yourself (based on your previously stated macros) to less than 1500 calories per day! You can’t really lower calories a whole lot more, man, at least not without failing to get in everything you need. When fat loss stalls in terms of your diet, sometimes you have to change up your activities (alter your training strategy, include more cardio, etc.). Fact - a set of 6 back squats with 225 is a LOT harder and generates WAY more EPOC than a set of 20 goblet squats with a 50 lb. dumbbell.

And I’m a big fan of rows, but it looks like you’re doing everything with cables only, and that seriously limits the amount of weight you’re able to use, which in turn limits the amount of strength you’re able to build. It’s really that simple.

As for pressing, floor presses still don’t make sense for the reason I gave before - if you work a muscle exclusively through a limited range of motion, you predispose yourself to further injuries. And I don’t really understand why you can do incline db presses if you can’t overhead press OR press on the horizontal plane.

Finally, “there are ways of becoming fast or generating force other than just barbells” - true and false. Plyometrics sure can increase your vertical jump, but olympic lifters generally have exceptional jumping capabilities derived just from constant work on the squat. More importantly, however, as I stated before, certain exercises simply don’t allow for significant loading (like triceps kickbacks, for example), which seriously limits one’s ability to develop strength by doing them.

Anyway, the point is that if you want to burn more body fat, you really need to look into other ways of expending calories. You’re already at a relatively low number of calories. [/quote]

As for the Goblet squat it (I will probably get flamed for this) was a 100lber with a band looped around the DB and my feet.
As with the rows hell I’ve been told to drop weight if i don’t actively retract the scapula first before I begin to row. And I can understand where the coach is coming from with my history and all.
The floor presses ARE for the reduced ROM. On the incline DB bench I don’t go all the way down same with the rowing I don;t go past the mid body.

“if you work a muscle exclusively through a limited range of motion, you predispose yourself to further injuries.” This is not true, but this is not the place for that discussion. And I’m not doing “kickbacks” its funny how I said something and kickbacks is what you heard.

But
This guy invented the corrective exercise, that is what he is own for, hence the reason I went to him so if he has me doing reduced ROM then that is what he wants me to be doing. My and your training goals are not alike, so I don’t see why the training or exercise selection has to be. Mine and your body is not alike, the history is not alike, etc.
I appreciate your concern, but this guy trains professionals, Olympians, I trust what he is doing.[/quote]

Also fair enough. We can agree to disagree about the necessity of full-range of motion exercises. Nevertheless, my main point stays the same - you’ve got to burn more calories, not eat fewer. You’re already taking in a very small amount of calories. [/quote]

I understand your point of view, thanks

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]young n wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
if the guy wants to cut, let him cut. Don’t really see why there’s responses in this thread saying he shouldn’t. His goals are is own.

OP - I really don’t like the look of your diet at all. Pulsing that amount of protein is just weird.

Get some lean meat and green stuff in you instead. It’ll be healthier and I’ll bet good money it’ll be more effective.

Consider carb cycling or carb backloading.[/quote]

Thank you, thank you, thank you

I can’t have “lean meats” I’m (here comes the flaming, though it shouldn’t) I’m lacto vegetarian.
How would you have me carb cycling or carb backloading?
Was I not basically carb back loading?
Protein through out the day and carbs before sleep?[/quote]

ok well the lacto-vegetarian thing makes it harder but not impossible. I would still have fibrous veg and whey protein instead of pulsing protein. You will feel fuller, and you will get a lot more nutrients that way.

Yeah you were carb backloading, but I meant more in terms of the way in which John Kiefer recommends, adapted for your situation.

The way I would do it would be:

-fast a few hours upon waking
-loads of green stuff and protein powders (reliance on protein powders is not ideal IMO but needs must
-starchy vegetables in the evening post training + protein supps

it might be more total calories than you are eating, but it will be MUCH better for you and I think it will provide healthier results both in fat loss and muscle building.

you could step it up a gear after a while and add a carb cycling element by only carbing up every other day, but I would stick to the nightly carb ups at first to see how they go.

A once weekly refeed might be something you want to incorporate too.[/quote]

My daily schedule is a lot like heavythrower’s, basically meaning during the time that I’m awake it would be more convient for me to drink a shake instead and then have a meal(s) after work.
And the pulsing that I was doing was with whey protein powder, my bad if I worded it incorrectly.

I’m already fasting when I wake up for about 5 hours and then I start “pulsing” with whey shakes which are 2 scoops in water so about 50 grams about 3 times for the next 7 hours and then training and the the meal.

So when you say starchy vegetables you mean potatoes?
Not grains?
Am I way off or . . .

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
if the guy wants to cut, let him cut. Don’t really see why there’s responses in this thread saying he shouldn’t. His goals are is own.

OP - I really don’t like the look of your diet at all. Pulsing that amount of protein is just weird.

Get some lean meat and green stuff in you instead. It’ll be healthier and I’ll bet good money it’ll be more effective.

Consider carb cycling or carb backloading.[/quote]
This.
The guy wants to lose fat, then lose fat.
You’re kinda screwed though since you are trying to get lean and you A. Have a less than optimal workout plan and B. you’re a vegetarian.
Ever seen a jacked and lean vegetarian?
Me either lol
All the vegan/vegetarians I know do not have good bodies but good luck

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
if the guy wants to cut, let him cut. Don’t really see why there’s responses in this thread saying he shouldn’t. His goals are is own.

OP - I really don’t like the look of your diet at all. Pulsing that amount of protein is just weird.

Get some lean meat and green stuff in you instead. It’ll be healthier and I’ll bet good money it’ll be more effective.

Consider carb cycling or carb backloading.[/quote]
This.
The guy wants to lose fat, then lose fat.
You’re kinda screwed though since you are trying to get lean and you A. Have a less than optimal workout plan and B. you’re a vegetarian.
Ever seen a jacked and lean vegetarian?
Me either lol
All the vegan/vegetarians I know do not have good bodies but good luck[/quote]

Haha, thanks for pissing on me, but thanks for dropping by.

[quote]young n wrote:

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:
if the guy wants to cut, let him cut. Don’t really see why there’s responses in this thread saying he shouldn’t. His goals are is own.

OP - I really don’t like the look of your diet at all. Pulsing that amount of protein is just weird.

Get some lean meat and green stuff in you instead. It’ll be healthier and I’ll bet good money it’ll be more effective.

Consider carb cycling or carb backloading.[/quote]
This.
The guy wants to lose fat, then lose fat.
You’re kinda screwed though since you are trying to get lean and you A. Have a less than optimal workout plan and B. you’re a vegetarian.
Ever seen a jacked and lean vegetarian?
Me either lol
All the vegan/vegetarians I know do not have good bodies but good luck[/quote]

Haha, thanks for pissing on me, but thanks for dropping by.[/quote]
Lol sorry Young N.
I didn’t mean for it to sound like I was pissing on you.
I haven’t read through this entire thread but from what I gather, I could be wrong, is that you are pretty set in your ways.
A lot of advice and critiques have been thrown your way and seem to be met with resistance.

Real talk:
Your diet and or training program suck.
If one or the other didn’t suck you would not look the way you look.
That is just a fact.
You are at a disadvantage because you are a vegetarian.
That is also just a fact.
How many vegetarian successful bodybuilders do you see?
Not many (I can’t think of one) because of the positive effects that large quantities of animal proteins have on the human body.
Again, that is just another obstacle that you have to overcome to be successful.
Can it be done?
Of course, BUT it is going to be even more difficult than usual.

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Lol sorry Young N.
I didn’t mean for it to sound like I was pissing on you.
I haven’t read through this entire thread but from what I gather, I could be wrong, is that you are pretty set in your ways.
A lot of advice and critiques have been thrown your way and seem to be met with resistance.
[/quote]

Its not that I’m being stubborn. It probably sounds like I am, but I’m just defending my routine. Which is the only thing being questioned and or attacked. Barely anything about diet is coming out of anybody’s mouth save for you and RDS and a few others.
I never came on here saying “hey guys do I need to bulk or cut?” Seems like a bunch of people had to give their 2 cents of no good shit about routine (save for Kai) that doesn’t concern them and be of no use. Sorry if I sound like an ass right now. But I’ve barely gotten any responses as to how I can fix my diet. And that was the question I asked, that was the help I needed. If I want to look like I don’t lift weights then so be it. If I want to look small so be it.
Maybe I’m the dumbass for thinking it is proper to reply to each post by a member that “contributed to this thread.”

How fucking hard is it to comprehend that I’m not a bodybuilder, I’m not doing a physique show otherwise I would have hired shelby.
I’m with a strength coach who trains athletes, is world renowned as a shoulder specialist, is one of the guys that invented corrective exercise.

[quote]Smashingweights wrote:
Real talk:
Your diet and or training program suck.
If one or the other didn’t suck you would not look the way you look.
That is just a fact.
You are at a disadvantage because you are a vegetarian.
That is also just a fact.
How many vegetarian successful bodybuilders do you see?
Not many (I can’t think of one) because of the positive effects that large quantities of animal proteins have on the human body.
Again, that is just another obstacle that you have to overcome to be successful.
Can it be done?
Of course, BUT it is going to be even more difficult than usual.

[/quote]

Thanks for stacking the odds up. And by no means am I attacking you or anything like that, in fact your one of the few who (to me seems like) has actually said something of use.

Once again thanks
And apologizes for sounding like I’m stubborn
But please do hit with what I can do diet wise.

So is it possible for me to carb backload as thats been brought up with a whey shake with EVOO in it and then carb backload at night?
I’ve done some research and Kiefer (sp?) says there is no way that a vegan/vegetarian can do it.

Do I need to add in more calories? Fats? Protein? Carbs?

The reason I was so diligent about getting 150 grams of protein in was because that I wasn’t consuming animal protein. I don’t know if that makes any sense.

It seems like Zraw and Jake got lean spreading out there macros pretty evenly throughout the day.
Hence I was wondering if thats what I need to be doing? And if so then the first 2-3 meals (depending on how much of a macro breakdown I need) of my day would have to be a shakes. So would the shake need carbs, fats? What should my breakdown be? I know I’m asking for a lot here but any help is appreciated.

[quote]young n wrote:
So is it possible for me to carb backload as thats been brought up with a whey shake with EVOO in it and then carb backload at night?
I’ve done some research and Kiefer (sp?) says there is no way that a vegan/vegetarian can do it.

Do I need to add in more calories? Fats? Protein? Carbs?

The reason I was so diligent about getting 150 grams of protein in was because that I wasn’t consuming animal protein. I don’t know if that makes any sense.

It seems like Zraw and Jake got lean spreading out there macros pretty evenly throughtout [/quote]

You can CBL being vegetarian I feel. Carbs can come from potatoes, rice, and fruits (some are more ideal then others). He just doesn’t think it’s near optimal without animal fats.

I would maybe invest in VCO, think it’s a solid fat source so you don’t have to only be taking in EVOO.

Yeah you probably need more calories, I skimmed the thread and someone said you were eating like 1500 calories? That’s not even enough for most average sized non-active males I would think.

I would get on a better routine. Maybe something like DeFranco’s WS4SB would be good. I think his 3rd/4th edition is the most recent. Then if you’re only going to get a 150g of protein, I would up carbs.

[quote]young n wrote:

[quote]anonym wrote:

[quote]young n wrote:
I never really was trying to build muscle, just trying to get strong.[/quote]

Well, there we go. Looks like “we” can stop trying to ram the first word of this forum down your throat for the time being.[/quote]

I’m sorry I didn’t understand. I’m not trying to ram anything down anywhere.
My apologizes if need be.[/quote]

That was more of a comment to those who got confused about the nature of this forum and felt the need to tell you what your goals should be.

If you want to cut, have at it and best of luck. And kudos for remaining civil when I’m sure you feel like banging your head against the wall with some of the responses you’ve been getting.

It seems like the only thing everybody wants me to do is get bigger, kind of weird to think that something (an idea, mentality, philosophy) is being pushed upon me. Pretty funny if you ask me.

=0

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
You can CBL being vegetarian I feel. Carbs can come from potatoes, rice, and fruits (some are more ideal then others). He just doesn’t think it’s near optimal without animal fats. [/quote]

So how exactly would I set that up?
And if I’m training weights in the morning and then other physical activities later in the day will I have enough energy (from carbs/fats) to perform?

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I would maybe invest in VCO, think it’s a solid fat source so you don’t have to only be taking in EVOO.[/quote]

I have some already, I use coconut oil for cooking whereas olive oil is for dressings or toppings. But coconut oil in shakes just doesn’t mix well if you know what I mean.

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Yeah you probably need more calories, I skimmed the thread and someone said you were eating like 1500 calories? That’s not even enough for most average sized non-active males I would think.[/quote]

The current breakdown is at least 150 grams of protein, 150 of carbs, and 50ish of fats.

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I would get on a better routine. Maybe something like DeFranco’s WS4SB would be good. I think his 3rd/4th edition is the most recent. Then if you’re only going to get a 150g of protein, I would up carbs. [/quote]

Thanks again for a program suggestion. But I’m definitely contempt with my current one.
As for the carbs, you say I need to up them, should up protein also, or one or the other?

[quote]young n wrote:

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
You can CBL being vegetarian I feel. Carbs can come from potatoes, rice, and fruits (some are more ideal then others). He just doesn’t think it’s near optimal without animal fats. [/quote]

So how exactly would I set that up?
And if I’m training weights in the morning and then other physical activities later in the day will I have enough energy (from carbs/fats) to perform?

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I would maybe invest in VCO, think it’s a solid fat source so you don’t have to only be taking in EVOO.[/quote]

I have some already, I use coconut oil for cooking whereas olive oil is for dressings or toppings. But coconut oil in shakes just doesn’t mix well if you know what I mean.

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Yeah you probably need more calories, I skimmed the thread and someone said you were eating like 1500 calories? That’s not even enough for most average sized non-active males I would think.[/quote]

The current breakdown is at least 150 grams of protein, 150 of carbs, and 50ish of fats.

[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
I would get on a better routine. Maybe something like DeFranco’s WS4SB would be good. I think his 3rd/4th edition is the most recent. Then if you’re only going to get a 150g of protein, I would up carbs. [/quote]

Thanks again for a program suggestion. But I’m definitely contempt with my current one.
As for the carbs, you say I need to up them, should up protein also, or one or the other?[/quote]

Have you tried Intermittent fasting? I’ve had some good results from that as well. The break-in period is the hardest, but many people have had excellent results from it once they adjust. Then you have to worry a whole lot less about meal-timing and such. It’s great for losing fat, even if it isn’t ideal for EVERYONE for gaining muscle and strength. Just another thought. I too appreciate how civil you’ve been this entire thread.

Well with CBL, when you train in the morning, you backload the PREVIOUS night to fuel that morning’s workout. It’s pretty simple, you just arrange your meals so you don’t have carbs until the evening. So just protein + fat meals until about 4-6pm, then after that protein + carb meals until bed. How many meals you have doesn’t matter. Whatever feels best you. And I’m not even saying that CBL is necessarily you’re best strategy. I personally had success with it, but your goals are different then mine.

Personally, I would up everything. My coach had me start off with 250g Carbs, 250g Protein, and 75g Fat, and we adjust macros based on if I lose/maintain/gain weight. Obviously 250g of Pro seems like a lot without meet, so I would put protein at 1g/BW (sorry not sure how much you weight, up fats a bit, and then add 50g of carbs this week, everyday (so 200g of carbs, up from the 150g you’re eating right now). Depending on whether you gain/lose weight next week, adjust.

Honestly I know you plan on ‘cutting’, but if you aren’t losing weight on 1650 calories while lifting and not being all too lean, you probably need to add some calories in, maybe get your metabolism back on track, and start from there. Maybe when you are taking in some more carbs, and such, some sprints or cardio would help your goals. But right now, I would think adding in some calories to fuel your workout may allow you to drop a bit of fat and add some muscle, which is in line with your goals.