EyeDentist, How Do You Train?

Training
161

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]staystrong wrote:
Hey EyeDentist, tried out some of your stuff and like it. One question I have is what exercise to you use for first exercise for back to get blood into the muscle? Every other muscle group I’ve found a good first exercise where I can do 20-30 reps and really focus on getting blood into the muscle.

I tried straight arm rope pulldowns but my triceps get burned out long before my back, and if I tried focusing on the peak portion of cable rows my biceps burnt out.

Any tips?[/quote]

Not Eyedentist, but try that same exercise with a straight bar with a pronated grip (palms facing down). It takes your triceps almost entirely out of the movement. [/quote]

funny you should say that, I actually find I get way more tricep activation with the bar which is why I switched to the rope.

Not saying you’re wrong, just that my experience has been different

162

[quote]staystrong wrote:
Hey EyeDentist, tried out some of your stuff and like it. One question I have is what exercise to you use for first exercise for back to get blood into the muscle? Every other muscle group I’ve found a good first exercise where I can do 20-30 reps and really focus on getting blood into the muscle.

I tried straight arm rope pulldowns but my triceps get burned out long before my back, and if I tried focusing on the peak portion of cable rows my biceps burnt out.

Any tips?[/quote]

Tossing my 2 cents in with the solid responses offered above…

I’ll start with the tl;dr answer to your specific question: My go-to exercise is the Pullover machine, grip light and reversed (ie, underhanded), working only the contracted third (handle near the belly) portion of the ROM, while using an ego-checked-at-the-gym-door amount of weight.

Now that that’s out of the way…

Let me begin by saying that, for me, lats are the toughest bodypart to establish a solid mind-muscle connection. Why this is the case, I’m not sure. (Speculation alert: Maybe it’s because I neglected them during my formative bro-years of doing nothing but bench/curls/upright rows.)

One way the tenuousness of my lat MMC manifests is with respect to the relationship between the weights I use and the feel of the movement. Moreso than for any other muscle, there exists for me a sharp dividing line between weights I can feel in my lats vs weights I can’t. What I mean is, for any given Lat exercise, as I ramp up the weight, I reach a point where a small increase in weight results in a complete loss of MMC–instead of feeling it in my lats, I feel it solely in my arms.

For example, say I’m doing bent-over rows for sets of 15 with 315. (Yeah, right. Let’s change that to Smith machine rows and 185#.) I’ll have a solid MMC, feeling every rep in my lats. But if on the next set I make a modest bump in weight (only 10-20#), that MMC is completely gone–despite the fact that I can get almost the same number of reps, for the life of me I can’t make myself feel it in my lats! For me, there is no other bodypart for which such small changes in work-weight produce such a profound change in MMC. I’d be curious if anyone reading this can relate.

About the machine pullovers. For me, the light/underhand grip is worth emphasizing, as it minimizes my tendency/ability to allow the triceps to take over. And speaking of taking over, I also have to be careful not to let my ego do so either–as with all lat exercises, on each set I have to make an honest assessment re where I’m feeling it, and adjust the weight accordingly. Inevitably, the weight I should use is less than the weight I could use.

One final caveat: If you don’t have a pullover machine, I would point out that DB pullovers are NOT an appropriate substitute as an initial/‘safe pump’ exercise in the program I outlined. In DB pullovers, the lats don’t kick in until they are well into the stretched position. This makes DB pullovers a great finishing exercise, but a lousy initial one. Hope this helps.

163

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

Let me begin by saying that, for me, lats are the toughest bodypart to establish a solid mind-muscle connection. Why this is the case, I’m not sure. (Speculation alert: Maybe it’s because I neglected them during my formative bro-years of doing nothing but bench/curls/upright rows.)

One way the tenuousness of my lat MMC manifests is with respect to the relationship between the weights I use and the feel of the movement. Moreso than for any other muscle, there exists for me a sharp dividing line between weights I can feel in my lats vs weights I can’t. What I mean is, for any given Lat exercise, as I ramp up the weight, I reach a point where a small increase in weight results in a complete loss of MMC–instead of feeling it in my lats, I feel it solely in my arms.

For me, there is no other bodypart for which such small changes in work-weight produce such a profound change in MMC. I’d be curious if anyone reading this can relate.

[/quote]

I can totally relate to this.

My current lat training is based on mostly “loaded flexing” where I do variations of 1-arm straight-arm pulldowns. I use a light weight and basically just create the most intense contraction as possible in my lat while prodding the muscle with my other hand. The load must be perfect, or it just doesn’t work.

Some people will use this type of stimulus as an “activation” movement before a heavier compound movement, but I just keep hammmering at the activation/contraction stuff and throw in partial-range wide-grip pull-ups and holds to top things off.

164

[quote]Serge A. Storms wrote:

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

Let me begin by saying that, for me, lats are the toughest bodypart to establish a solid mind-muscle connection. Why this is the case, I’m not sure. (Speculation alert: Maybe it’s because I neglected them during my formative bro-years of doing nothing but bench/curls/upright rows.)

One way the tenuousness of my lat MMC manifests is with respect to the relationship between the weights I use and the feel of the movement. Moreso than for any other muscle, there exists for me a sharp dividing line between weights I can feel in my lats vs weights I can’t. What I mean is, for any given Lat exercise, as I ramp up the weight, I reach a point where a small increase in weight results in a complete loss of MMC–instead of feeling it in my lats, I feel it solely in my arms.

For me, there is no other bodypart for which such small changes in work-weight produce such a profound change in MMC. I’d be curious if anyone reading this can relate.

[/quote]

I can totally relate to this.

My current lat training is based on mostly “loaded flexing” where I do variations of 1-arm straight-arm pulldowns. I use a light weight and basically just create the most intense contraction as possible in my lat while prodding the muscle with my other hand. The load must be perfect, or it just doesn’t work.

Some people will use this type of stimulus as an “activation” movement before a heavier compound movement, but I just keep hammmering at the activation/contraction stuff and throw in partial-range wide-grip pull-ups and holds to top things off.
[/quote]

Yep. As a matter of fact, I’ve recently ‘discovered’ one-arm lat work myself, and perform it in a manner analogous to what you describe here.

165

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
My problem is going to be that I have no choice but work out at 5 am. I have over the years geared my diet to mostly in the morning and eat mostly veggies for dinner.

Plus I like whiskey :slight_smile: but some times you have to make a choice. [/quote]

I went through a period where I trained then and didn’t eat until 6pm actually still do depending on rotation

166

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
My problem is going to be that I have no choice but work out at 5 am. I have over the years geared my diet to mostly in the morning and eat mostly veggies for dinner.

Plus I like whiskey :slight_smile: but some times you have to make a choice. [/quote]

I went through a period where I trained then and didn’t eat until 6pm actually still do depending on rotation [/quote]

I’ve pushed the envelope with fasting like this a bit in the past too. Only thing I find is that I tend to digest my food a little better if I give myself a bigger window for eating.

167

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
My problem is going to be that I have no choice but work out at 5 am. I have over the years geared my diet to mostly in the morning and eat mostly veggies for dinner.

Plus I like whiskey :slight_smile: but some times you have to make a choice. [/quote]

I went through a period where I trained then and didn’t eat until 6pm actually still do depending on rotation [/quote]

I’ve pushed the envelope with fasting like this a bit in the past too. Only thing I find is that I tend to digest my food a little better if I give myself a bigger window for eating.[/quote]

It certainly works better if you need less to maintain or gain. Or if you can still hit the bathroom the next morning a couple times :slight_smile:

168

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]staystrong wrote:
Hey EyeDentist, tried out some of your stuff and like it. One question I have is what exercise to you use for first exercise for back to get blood into the muscle? Every other muscle group I’ve found a good first exercise where I can do 20-30 reps and really focus on getting blood into the muscle.

I tried straight arm rope pulldowns but my triceps get burned out long before my back, and if I tried focusing on the peak portion of cable rows my biceps burnt out.

Any tips?[/quote]

Tossing my 2 cents in with the solid responses offered above…

I’ll start with the tl;dr answer to your specific question: My go-to exercise is the Pullover machine, grip light and reversed (ie, underhanded), working only the contracted third (handle near the belly) portion of the ROM, while using an ego-checked-at-the-gym-door amount of weight.

Now that that’s out of the way…

Let me begin by saying that, for me, lats are the toughest bodypart to establish a solid mind-muscle connection. Why this is the case, I’m not sure. (Speculation alert: Maybe it’s because I neglected them during my formative bro-years of doing nothing but bench/curls/upright rows.)

One way the tenuousness of my lat MMC manifests is with respect to the relationship between the weights I use and the feel of the movement. Moreso than for any other muscle, there exists for me a sharp dividing line between weights I can feel in my lats vs weights I can’t. What I mean is, for any given Lat exercise, as I ramp up the weight, I reach a point where a small increase in weight results in a complete loss of MMC–instead of feeling it in my lats, I feel it solely in my arms.

For example, say I’m doing bent-over rows for sets of 15 with 315. (Yeah, right. Let’s change that to Smith machine rows and 185#.) I’ll have a solid MMC, feeling every rep in my lats. But if on the next set I make a modest bump in weight (only 10-20#), that MMC is completely gone–despite the fact that I can get almost the same number of reps, for the life of me I can’t make myself feel it in my lats! For me, there is no other bodypart for which such small changes in work-weight produce such a profound change in MMC. I’d be curious if anyone reading this can relate.

About the machine pullovers. For me, the light/underhand grip is worth emphasizing, as it minimizes my tendency/ability to allow the triceps to take over. And speaking of taking over, I also have to be careful not to let my ego do so either–as with all lat exercises, on each set I have to make an honest assessment re where I’m feeling it, and adjust the weight accordingly. Inevitably, the weight I should use is less than the weight I could use.

One final caveat: If you don’t have a pullover machine, I would point out that DB pullovers are NOT an appropriate substitute as an initial/‘safe pump’ exercise in the program I outlined. In DB pullovers, the lats don’t kick in until they are well into the stretched position. This makes DB pullovers a great finishing exercise, but a lousy initial one. Hope this helps.
[/quote]

As always, thanks for the detailed response. The pullover machine was something I was considering, but was hesitant to because in the past when using it through the full range of motion I didn’t feel it at all. But keeping it in the contracted portion and using an underhand grip seems like a great idea. I’ll try it out this week, thanks.

169

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]staystrong wrote:
Hey EyeDentist, tried out some of your stuff and like it. One question I have is what exercise to you use for first exercise for back to get blood into the muscle? Every other muscle group I’ve found a good first exercise where I can do 20-30 reps and really focus on getting blood into the muscle.

I tried straight arm rope pulldowns but my triceps get burned out long before my back, and if I tried focusing on the peak portion of cable rows my biceps burnt out.

Any tips?[/quote]

Not Eyedentist, but try that same exercise with a straight bar with a pronated grip (palms facing down). It takes your triceps almost entirely out of the movement. [/quote]

funny you should say that, I actually find I get way more tricep activation with the bar which is why I switched to the rope.

Not saying you’re wrong, just that my experience has been different
[/quote]

Oddly enough, because of Lanky mentioning them I started thinking about the movement I kept throwing ideas around in my head during work this weekend and came up with an interesting idea.

What if I set the pulley low, very low. Like in a straight line with your hands if you let them drop relaxed at your side when you’re standing upright. That way, even if you let your triceps relax and your elbows bend naturally during the movement the straight line of force would prevent it from turning into a typical row movement. With the set up for this, your arms wouldn’t ever get perpendicular to your body (probably more like 45 degrees max) which is perfectly fine for what I’m trying to use it for.

Not really looking for someone to answer any question with this post, just typing down my thoughts and trying to figure out potential flaws before my next back day.

170

Thought I might throw an update on here, in case anyone’s interested.

Taking a page from the The Mighty Stu playbook, I’ve jiggered my schedule to prioritize a couple of bodyparts. The main BP I’ve selected is (what else?) delts, specifically looking to improve (what else?) width. I’m also prioritizing Triceps (because mine suck). Current program:

Day 1: Lateral/Rear Delts
Day 2: 1 hr run
Day 3: Chest/Back/Front Delts/Arms
Day 4: Conditioning: KB swings + Abs (hanging knee raises)
Day 5: Lateral/Rear Delts
Day 6: 1 hr run
Day 7: Chest/Back/Front Delts/Arms
Day 8: Conditioning: Leg Press + Abs (crunches)

Calves are done every lifting day (not that you can tell).

Note: My brief flirtation with hitting muscles with a frequency > q4 days didn’t pan out; same with my attempt to incorporate sissy squats into my KB/abs sessions.

Tweaks:
–I’m using a heavier KB, but doing fewer total sets.
–The leg press work is done in a very quad-dominant fashion, ie, with my feet low on the platform. So in essence, my two conditioning workouts can be thought of as ‘hammies + lower abs’ (the KB workout) and ‘quads + upper abs’ (the leg-press workout).
–After reviewing some literature on the speed of nutrient absorption, I’m now consuming a substantial portion of my ‘intra’ nutrition pre-workout (as opposed to holding off until I got a pump going, as I used to do).
–Speaking of workout nutrition: Because my Chest/Back/etc workout takes twice as long as my Delts workout, I now take twice the amount of pre/intra nutrition on that day.
–I’ve forced myself to drop a little volume on all bodyparts.

Re diet: I’m trying to ramp my metabolism by (slowly) increasing cals without appreciably increasing BF levels. Currently I’m up to an average of 2500/d. I’m counting my cals (and protein; more about this below) in two-day increments, with each increment composed of a non-lifting day (= low-cal, low-carb) and the following lifting day (= high-cal, high-carb). At 2500 cals/d, this means I have a 5000-calorie budget for each increment, with any cals I don’t ‘spend’ on the Low day getting credited to the following High day. So if I eat 2000 cals on the Low day, I only get 3000 the next day; but if I can get by with 1600 cals on the Low day, I’ll have a bountiful 3400 to spend the next day.

Likewise, I’m aiming for 180 g per day of protein, so 360 g per two-day increment. Since I’d like to spend my High-day cals on as many yummy carbs as possible, the protein requirement incentivizes me to eat more protein (and therefore less fat) on the Low day. So far, so good.

A pic from today to show my current conditioning. I turn 52 next week.

[photo]40419[/photo]

171

That, sir, is just ridiculous. Kudos to you.

172

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
That, sir, is just ridiculous. Kudos to you.[/quote]

Thanks AG! BTW, one of my long-term goals is to displace Serge A. Storms as your “fitness man-crush.” I may never get there, but it keeps me motivated. ;^)

173

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
That, sir, is just ridiculous. Kudos to you.[/quote]

x2

EyeDentist, can you give me some advice on arriving at a carb intake level (I think this may be where my issue is). I feel this is where I struggle the most. I just turned 54 and have lost about 45 pounds over the last year and, as you can imagine, once you start seeing the faint sign of abs peeking out, your mind kicks in and shit happens. I have lowered calories and maintained if not slightly increased workouts (usually not a good recipe). My recovery abilities are very good at least for the time-being.

Currently weight 205 at 6’5". Current calories are at 2500 non workout days and 2700-2800 on lifting days. My carbs are usually around 175 on non workout days and around 250 on lifting days. The problem is lower abs and lower back, not bad but doesn’t seem to want to tighten up like the rest of me. I was always skinny fat until recently. maybe it will just take more time, I have been back regularly lifting for a little over a year. Also, never have been a breakfast eater, si I do IF. Any thoughts? Thanks.

174

you sir, are a human photoshop

175

[quote]Yogi wrote:
you sir, are a human photoshop[/quote]

Ha! I wish I was, so I could fix that face.

176

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
That, sir, is just ridiculous. Kudos to you.[/quote]

Thanks AG! BTW, one of my long-term goals is to displace Serge A. Storms as your “fitness man-crush.” I may never get there, but it keeps me motivated. ;^)[/quote]

Looking sharp as ever in that pic, nice work!

(You might reach that goal, by the way, but I’ll always be his first.)

But seriously, I love seeing us motivate each other, that’s what keeps me around.

Keep us posted on those diet tweaks. I’m especially interested in how manageable your appetite is on those low days.

177

[quote]Serge A. Storms wrote:

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
That, sir, is just ridiculous. Kudos to you.[/quote]

Thanks AG! BTW, one of my long-term goals is to displace Serge A. Storms as your “fitness man-crush.” I may never get there, but it keeps me motivated. ;^)[/quote]

Looking sharp as ever in that pic, nice work!

(You might reach that goal, by the way, but I’ll always be his first.)
[/quote]

It’s a close race, fellas. A close race.

Being serious, though, I spent my younger years as a husky brute chasing strength and athletic performance, so I’m still (relatively) new to training with aesthetics as a consideration. Each of you has contributed some fresh and novel (to me) ideas, and I’ve really enjoyed considering those perspectives as I feel out where to take things from here. I still “work out” (I’m not sure I do things with enough purpose to use the term “train” right now) for pleasure first and foremost, but I’m always interested in learning and experimenting, lest I want to adopt something new down the line.

178

[quote]gulfcoast wrote:

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
That, sir, is just ridiculous. Kudos to you.[/quote]

x2

EyeDentist, can you give me some advice on arriving at a carb intake level (I think this may be where my issue is). I feel this is where I struggle the most. I just turned 54 and have lost about 45 pounds over the last year and, as you can imagine, once you start seeing the faint sign of abs peeking out, your mind kicks in and shit happens. I have lowered calories and maintained if not slightly increased workouts (usually not a good recipe). My recovery abilities are very good at least for the time-being.

Currently weight 205 at 6’5". Current calories are at 2500 non workout days and 2700-2800 on lifting days. My carbs are usually around 175 on non workout days and around 250 on lifting days. The problem is lower abs and lower back, not bad but doesn’t seem to want to tighten up like the rest of me. I was always skinny fat until recently. maybe it will just take more time, I have been back regularly lifting for a little over a year. Also, never have been a breakfast eater, si I do IF. Any thoughts? Thanks.
[/quote]

Hi gulfcoast, congrats on the 45# weight loss–truly an outstanding accomplishment (if only the kids knew how hard it was for us senior citizens to lose weight). As for carrying your remaining weight in the lower back/abdomen areas, that’s exactly the situation I was in. If you look back to my first big post on this thread, you’ll see pics of what I looked like before commencing my cut. I was ~207# then, with a couple of abs peeking through; and as you can see, the majority of my remaining pudge was in my lower back/abdomen. For me, getting these fat stores to shrink was mainly a matter of time-on-diet.

OTOH, if you want to be more aggressive in attacking these sites, Lyle McDonald wrote an eBook called The Stubborn Fat Solution in which he lays out a strategy for facilitating metabolic access to these fat stores. I found his ideas in this regard interesting and influential, although I have not run his program precisely as he lays it out. (Note: I have no financial ties to either Mr. McDonald or his book.)

Re your diet, and carbs: Not sure how much of this thread you’ve read, but I’m a big believer in manipulating insulin levels and sensitivity via carb cycling. In that regard, I keep carbs as low as possible on non-lifting days (usually end up ~20 g or so). On lifting days, I don’t start taking any carbs until shortly pre-workout (you want insulin to spike during and immediately after working out).

So, one thing you might consider is dropping intentional carbs completely on your non-lifting days. That would yield a decrease of ~150 g carbs x 4 cal/g = 600 fewer cals/d (on non-lifting days). Depending on how many days/week you lift, that alone might be enough to get the needle moving at a faster clip. Further, the resulting increase in insulin sensitivity might lead to more efficient protein/carb utilization by your muscles on lifting days. If dropping carbs/cals that much left you feeling ravenous and overly deprived, you could bump either your fat or protein intake a little to compensate.

IMO, your current lifting-day carb intake of 250 g is borderline low. Happily, dropping 150 g of carbs from non-lifting days would allow you to bump this number up a bit without increasing your overall cal intake. I suggest you increase carbs on lifting days to ~300, making sure to limit them to the peri-workout period.

Here is the tl;dr of my decidedly un-expert advice:

  1. Drop intentional carbs on non-lifting days–will save you ~150 g. If doing so leaves you ravenous, bump up protein intake by ~50 g (or fat by 20 g) to compensate.
  2. Increase lifting-day carbs to ~300, all consumed in the peri-workout window.

If you decide to implement any of this, be sure to let me know how it works for you.

Finally, I think IFing is fine, with the caveat that fasted weightlifting is not optimal IMO. (Not sure whether you’re doing this.) Best of luck reaching your goals.

1 Like
179

Sounds like an excellent plan to me. Thank you so much for you insight and time. It has been a real joy and very enlightening to read this thread. If you ever decide to do some personal training give me a shout. Could use someone looking over my shoulder. Again, thanks much.

180

I was reading about some ULC stuff the other day. I think it said that anything below 10g of protein doesn’t produce an insulin spike. This got me thinking about your IFish approach of a spoon of PB every couple of hours on off days. If you switched some of that PB to, say, an ounce of cheese, you could squeeze in some extra protein each time you ate, plus the casein would probably do a great job of keeping you full in addition to decreasing your carb intake even more.