Lately, I’ve been trying a similar diet to yours, fasting with PB until workout time, breaking my intake up into lifting and conditioning days. Lifting-day goals: 2720 cals, 250g protein, 250g carbs, 80g fat (these are based on a formula I picked up from one of the carb cycling atricles on this site). Cardio-day goals (which have been tweaked based on recent learning’s on the matter and needing to restrict cal and carb intake when trying to burn fat): 1800 cals, 250g protein, 50-80g carbs, 50-80g fat. I rarely actually hit these goals as I’m trying to ingest everything in about a 3 hour window.
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Goals sound solid. Might consider dropping the cardio-day carbs a little lower–try to cap them at 30 or so. (Can make up the lost cals in either protein or fat.)
Trust me–as the diet progresses, you’ll figure out a way to get every cal you’re entitled to. ;^)
[quote]
I’ve been trying this diet for a little over a week and while I don’t notice much of a difference around the waistline yet, I do notice feeling “tighter”. [/quote]
Well, I haven’t really run this program before. I’ve done the typical SS/5x5, then I’ve spent a lot of time with a bodypart split, Big Beyond Belief, and (probably my favorite) a split that was similar to the above except it had two leg days.
Thing is, before this medical stuff I’d loved training legs and always felt like it was very important to progress. Wondering whether with physique I should take legs almost entirely out or whether some other approach makes more sense. And with less legwork, I guess I should up the arm training, perhaps giving it its own day. Maybe the only tweak I should make is to just replace one of the leg days in my old routine with an arm day, with maybe some pump work for back (since back tolerates higher volume better than chest). There’s also the concern about treating one’s joints well and such though, as it may be too much upper body work, and maybe I should instead incorporate more cardio.
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I have to say, my first thought looking at the split you’d outlined was ‘Wow, that’s going to be really hard on the joints/tendons.’ Which is why I asked whether you’d run it before, because if you’ve had success with that sort of split, by all means run it again. If not, I’d start with something less joint/tendon stressful.
By my calculations, that totals to ~2260 cals. At your current BW of 160#, that works out to ~14 cals/lb–not a bad day’s intake, considering the dietary challenges you face. If you could find a way (with the blessing of your docs) to bump your cals by 200-300, it might be enough to get you growing once more.
Well, I haven’t really run this program before. I’ve done the typical SS/5x5, then I’ve spent a lot of time with a bodypart split, Big Beyond Belief, and (probably my favorite) a split that was similar to the above except it had two leg days.
Thing is, before this medical stuff I’d loved training legs and always felt like it was very important to progress. Wondering whether with physique I should take legs almost entirely out or whether some other approach makes more sense. And with less legwork, I guess I should up the arm training, perhaps giving it its own day. Maybe the only tweak I should make is to just replace one of the leg days in my old routine with an arm day, with maybe some pump work for back (since back tolerates higher volume better than chest). There’s also the concern about treating one’s joints well and such though, as it may be too much upper body work, and maybe I should instead incorporate more cardio.
[/quote]
I have to say, my first thought looking at the split you’d outlined was ‘Wow, that’s going to be really hard on the joints/tendons.’ Which is why I asked whether you’d run it before, because if you’ve had success with that sort of split, by all means run it again. If not, I’d start with something less joint/tendon stressful.
By my calculations, that totals to ~2260 cals. At your current BW of 160#, that works out to ~14 cals/lb–not a bad day’s intake, considering the dietary challenges you face. If you could find a way (with the blessing of your docs) to bump your cals by 200-300, it might be enough to get you growing once more.
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Thanks for the response.
On training:
One thing I’ve considered is just that on my shoulder-focused day, approaching it as more of a “pull”-oriented session instead of push. Eg, staying away from OHP and opting instead for front delt raises and dumbbell standing upright rows.
Alternatively, when my abscess wound has fully healed I might just lower the volume one of those pressing days and add in abdominal work.
On diet:
As far as that macro split goes, how would you rearrange it given that I’m eating it within a two hour window at night? Setting my food restrictions aside, I wouldn’t think the GI of the rice versus something with a lower GI matters much since it’s being eaten with plenty of protein, which (at least my understanding is…?) evens out the absorption rate to the extent that it’s essentially a wash v. something like oatmeal. Thoughts on any of that?
To make one follow-up remark, from a sheer biological perspective, I know that the whole “only X amount of nutrients are absorbed” is broscience, but I have trouble conceptualizing how the nutrients are taken up by the body when done in the two-hour window manner I am doing during the week and how it should affect the way I approach macros. Again, setting aside my dietary restrictions, do you have any thoughts on that?
[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
Thanks for the response.
On training:
One thing I’ve considered is just that on my shoulder-focused day, approaching it as more of a “pull”-oriented session instead of push. Eg, staying away from OHP and opting instead for front delt raises and dumbbell standing upright rows.
[/quote]
Sounds good to me. (As you’ve probably gleaned from this thread, I’m a fan of thinking in terms of ‘push’ and ‘pull.’)
[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
To make one follow-up remark, from a sheer biological perspective, I know that the whole “only X amount of nutrients are absorbed” is broscience, but I have trouble conceptualizing how the nutrients are taken up by the body when done in the two-hour window manner I am doing during the week and how it should affect the way I approach macros. Again, setting aside my dietary restrictions, do you have any thoughts on that?
Thanks.[/quote]
This question would be better addressed by your GI doc (please let me know how s/he responds). That said, I wouldn’t worry about how your short feeding window affects nutrient absorption, as (to my knowledge) it shouldn’t have much of one.
Given the extreme brevity of your eating window, my main thought is that you need to focus on eating nutrient- and (especially) calorie-dense foods–you literally don’t have a mouthful to waste. This will become even more important as you gain weight, and your caloric needs climb accordingly.
For those eating “natural” peanut butter and super paranoid about the insulin spike of PB (which has a miniscule glycemic index & load) - mixing it with coconut oil is a good way to reduce the carb quantity per serve and doesn’t make it taste of ass.
How long would the minor insulin spike, say from 2tbsp of PB, generally last? I’d imagine we’d want to wait at least that long in between the next ‘feeding’ to avoid an even bigger spike, or compounding spikes?
Also, would the CPIR phenomenon discussed earlier suggest that we should shy away from certain ‘negative kcal’ foods like oranges, strawberries, apples, grapefruit, etc (based on my limited research, I’ve seen them on that list) because they are sweeter? If we opted to eat them while on ‘fat phase’ with the PB for example…
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
How long would the minor insulin spike, say from 2tbsp of PB, generally last? I’d imagine we’d want to wait at least that long in between the next ‘feeding’ to avoid an even bigger spike, or compounding spikes?
Also, would the CPIR phenomenon discussed earlier suggest that we should shy away from certain ‘negative kcal’ foods like oranges, strawberries, apples, grapefruit, etc (based on my limited research, I’ve seen them on that list) because they are sweeter? If we opted to eat them while on ‘fat phase’ with the PB for example…[/quote]
I time my PB based on hunger rather than insulin release. That is, I have 2-3 tbsp., then wait as long as I can before having another 1-2 (assuming I have more).
The foods you listed are definitely not ‘neg cal’ foods (although some have more cals than others). I wouldn’t have any of them before working out.
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
How long would the minor insulin spike, say from 2tbsp of PB, generally last? I’d imagine we’d want to wait at least that long in between the next ‘feeding’ to avoid an even bigger spike, or compounding spikes?
Also, would the CPIR phenomenon discussed earlier suggest that we should shy away from certain ‘negative kcal’ foods like oranges, strawberries, apples, grapefruit, etc (based on my limited research, I’ve seen them on that list) because they are sweeter? If we opted to eat them while on ‘fat phase’ with the PB for example…[/quote]
I time my PB based on hunger rather than insulin release. That is, I have 2-3 tbsp., then wait as long as I can before having another 1-2 (assuming I have more).
The foods you listed are definitely not ‘neg cal’ foods (although some have more cals than others). I wouldn’t have any of them before working out.
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Understood… It didn’t make sense to me that I found them on a few different lists either. Figured I’d ask, before trying. Thanks!
[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
To make one follow-up remark, from a sheer biological perspective, I know that the whole “only X amount of nutrients are absorbed” is broscience, but I have trouble conceptualizing how the nutrients are taken up by the body when done in the two-hour window manner I am doing during the week and how it should affect the way I approach macros. Again, setting aside my dietary restrictions, do you have any thoughts on that?
Thanks.[/quote]
This question would be better addressed by your GI doc (please let me know how s/he responds). That said, I wouldn’t worry about how your short feeding window affects nutrient absorption, as (to my knowledge) it shouldn’t have much of one.
Given the extreme brevity of your eating window, my main thought is that you need to focus on eating nutrient- and (especially) calorie-dense foods–you literally don’t have a mouthful to waste. This will become even more important as you gain weight, and your caloric needs climb accordingly. [/quote]
Body is smart eat a bunch in a short window and it will slowly absorb not like a small meal
(Introduced one armed HS press (with angled body) yesterday for the first time. Light weights but brutal for 12 reps)
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Hi raven, thanks for stopping by, and glad to hear you enjoyed the thread. Please feel free to come back and share your thoughts/experiences any time.
Those one-arm HS presses are such sweet torture. I’m currently struggling with some shoulder arthritis, and it is one of the few Chest exercises I can tolerate, so I’m really hammering it (if you’ll pardon the expression).
During your bulking-to-lean-to-leaner bulking-to-now journey, I’m wondering if you’ve encountered something similar:
So to preface, I love to train. And I missed it a lot of the past six months. Now I think I’ve slipped into the habit of overdoing it. Being honest, I’ve been lifting for 90 mins a day and then doing 90 mins of cardio a day, along with a two hour walk in the evening. Then on weekdays doing the diet I listed above.
The problem is that, man, on non-working days (I took the day off from work yesterday), I’ve just been going to town. I probably hammered 6k calories (and that’s being generous) yesterday of mostly junk food (literally: 1200 cals of frozen yogurt, a sleeve of cookies, a package of cookie dough, a box of cereal, lots of fat free cottage cheese with peanut butter) after making sure to get in ~200g protein. I feel fine (…or at least think I do) during my working days, but then when I don’t have to work I just find myself wanting to eat and sleep all day. And the food choices are frankly pretty poor, which I chalk up to a combination of needing calorie density and, when I was hospitalized all those weeks, telling myself that I was “done depriving myself of eating so strictly” and whatnot.
I’ve probably put on 10lbs in the past two weeks, but at least in the mirror I don’t seem to reflect as much being fat as I would have thought. I chalk this up to a combination of being in that zone where small differences in bf% aren’t visible and perhaps to the possibility that my muscles have just been waiting for the calories and rest to get to where they used to be size-wise (but perhaps that’s just wishful thinking on my part).
Just thought I’d solicit any thoughts. Not really sure where to go on it. Probably just need to tone down the cardio, I suppose. The main thing is just that it sort of sucks to be spending my whole days away from work eating and sleeping when I could be doing other things, but then again I guess I’m just in the habit of this training cycle. But I know in my head that 3hrs a day is nuts.
[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
During your bulking-to-lean-to-leaner bulking-to-now journey, I’m wondering if you’ve encountered something similar:
So to preface, I love to train. And I missed it a lot of the past six months. Now I think I’ve slipped into the habit of overdoing it. Being honest, I’ve been lifting for 90 mins a day and then doing 90 mins of cardio a day, along with a two hour walk in the evening. Then on weekdays doing the diet I listed above.
The problem is that, man, on non-working days (I took the day off from work yesterday), I’ve just been going to town. I probably hammered 6k calories (and that’s being generous) yesterday of mostly junk food (literally: 1200 cals of frozen yogurt, a sleeve of cookies, a package of cookie dough, a box of cereal, lots of fat free cottage cheese with peanut butter) after making sure to get in ~200g protein. I feel fine (…or at least think I do) during my working days, but then when I don’t have to work I just find myself wanting to eat and sleep all day. And the food choices are frankly pretty poor, which I chalk up to a combination of needing calorie density and, when I was hospitalized all those weeks, telling myself that I was “done depriving myself of eating so strictly” and whatnot.
I’ve probably put on 10lbs in the past two weeks, but at least in the mirror I don’t seem to reflect as much being fat as I would have thought. I chalk this up to a combination of being in that zone where small differences in bf% aren’t visible and perhaps to the possibility that my muscles have just been waiting for the calories and rest to get to where they used to be size-wise (but perhaps that’s just wishful thinking on my part).
Just thought I’d solicit any thoughts. Not really sure where to go on it. Probably just need to tone down the cardio, I suppose. The main thing is just that it sort of sucks to be spending my whole days away from work eating and sleeping when I could be doing other things, but then again I guess I’m just in the habit of this training cycle. But I know in my head that 3hrs a day is nuts. [/quote]
Indeed, I can definitely relate to both of the issues (compulsive training and binge eating) you are describing, and dare say you and I are far from alone in this regard.
I’m glad to hear you verbalize (so to speak) awareness that 1) these behaviors are occurring, and 2) they are maladaptive (ie, not healthful). I say this because self-awareness is the first step toward dealing with them. And while I would not presume I know you well enough to say for sure, I do agree it is likely your recent profound health issues and their sequelae (ie, the body dysmorphia you seem to be struggling with) rendered you at-risk for these behaviors.
Yeah to be honest my main concern is twofold: first, that if I were to decide that it’s time to lose weight, I’m doing so much activity right now that there won’t be “things to add on” in the way that bodybuilders usually approach the diet process; second, that it’s affecting my strength gains. Ha, I’m just wondering on what the over/under is on weeks of keeping this up before I’d either turn into (1) a lard ass or (2) someone with a respectable amount of muscle.
Edit: Ha, I just think (/fear) that my story will eventually become:
At 27 I had a huge medical event that was GI related. After more than a decade of serious training and maintaining a fairly strict diet, my GI system essentially fell apart. After the surgery I felt like “what the hell have I been doing with all this careful food selection if this is where I end up?”, and resolving not to be so restrictive. And boy did I not restrict. In fact, I got pretty fat before cleaning things up.
Ha, so at least in my narrative I build in a rebound.
Read the whole thread, loved it.
ED, have you ever tried doing your exact same diet but with protein all day long? I recently read somewhere, dont remember where could look it up tho, that while protein does raise insulin levels, it also raise glucagon levels, which would counter act the insulin.
Im nowhere close to being able to give you advice, just throwing my 2 cents since if thats indeed true your diet could be easier(it looks tough, hate fasting) and perhaps give you better results with a greater intake of protein.
[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
Yeah to be honest my main concern is twofold: first, that if I were to decide that it’s time to lose weight, I’m doing so much activity right now that there won’t be “things to add on” in the way that bodybuilders usually approach the diet process; second, that it’s affecting my strength gains. Ha, I’m just wondering on what the over/under is on weeks of keeping this up before I’d either turn into (1) a lard ass or (2) someone with a respectable amount of muscle.
Edit: Ha, I just think (/fear) that my story will eventually become:
At 27 I had a huge medical event that was GI related. After more than a decade of serious training and maintaining a fairly strict diet, my GI system essentially fell apart. After the surgery I felt like “what the hell have I been doing with all this careful food selection if this is where I end up?”, and resolving not to be so restrictive. And boy did I not restrict. In fact, I got pretty fat before cleaning things up.
Ha, so at least in my narrative I build in a rebound. [/quote]
IIRC, you are still in the midst of rehabbing/recovering from your medical event, yes?
[quote]pedro1597 wrote:
Read the whole thread, loved it.
ED, have you ever tried doing your exact same diet but with protein all day long? I recently read somewhere, dont remember where could look it up tho, that while protein does raise insulin levels, it also raise glucagon levels, which would counter act the insulin.
Im nowhere close to being able to give you advice, just throwing my 2 cents since if thats indeed true your diet could be easier(it looks tough, hate fasting) and perhaps give you better results with a greater intake of protein.[/quote]
Hi Pedro, glad you liked the thread. Glucagon release is indeed provoked by protein intake, and counters insulin’s effect in the sense that it (glucagon) causes the release of glucose into the bloodstream. However, glucagon does not (to my knowledge) counter insulin’s anabolic effects; ie, it doesn’t prevent insulin from ‘opening the door’ on fat cells. (I suppose that’s why one can still get fat on a high-protein diet if total caloric intake isn’t capped.)
Hi Pedro, glad you liked the thread. Glucagon release is indeed provoked by protein intake, and counters insulin’s effect in the sense that it (glucagon) causes the release of glucose into the bloodstream. However, glucagon does not (to my knowledge) counter insulin’s anabolic effects; ie, it doesn’t prevent insulin from ‘opening the door’ on fat cells. (I suppose that’s why one can still get fat on a high-protein diet if total caloric intake isn’t capped.)
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I would assume the fat gain on a caloric surplus would be from the protein>glucose>fatty acids convertion, not from the insulin release from protein intake no?
Sorry if being a pain in the ass questioning your proven methods haha, im just really into this subject, thinking of going to med school myself.