Hi EyeDentist,
I’m curious, what’s your take on heavy whipping cream? 5g of fat per serving (table spoon) and not much else. I’m looking for alternatives to peanut putter in the morning any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks!
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Hi EyeDentist,
I’m curious, what’s your take on heavy whipping cream? 5g of fat per service (table spoon) and not much else. I’m looking for alternatives to peanut putter in the morning any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks![/quote]
Metabolically, it would be fine–no carbs + no protein = no insulin. Would you simply take a tbsp or two?
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Hi EyeDentist,
I’m curious, what’s your take on heavy whipping cream? 5g of fat per service (table spoon) and not much else. I’m looking for alternatives to peanut putter in the morning any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks![/quote]
Metabolically, it would be fine–no carbs + no protein = no insulin. Would you simply take a tbsp or two?
[/quote]
Yes, possibly just adding it to coffee.
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Hi EyeDentist,
I’m curious, what’s your take on heavy whipping cream? 5g of fat per service (table spoon) and not much else. I’m looking for alternatives to peanut putter in the morning any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks![/quote]
Metabolically, it would be fine–no carbs + no protein = no insulin. Would you simply take a tbsp or two?
[/quote]
Yes, possibly just adding it to coffee. [/quote]
Perfect!
If you were going to design a training template for someone specifically training to become a physique competitor, what would it look like?
How would you approach the mass gain phase? How about cutting? More cardio for physique than bb’ing because not as worried about loss of leg mass?
[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
If you were going to design a training template for someone specifically training to become a physique competitor, what would it look like?
How would you approach the mass gain phase? How about cutting? More cardio for physique than bb’ing because not as worried about loss of leg mass?[/quote]
What’s their pre-training physique status; ie, how much muscle do they have, and how much fat are they carrying?
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
If you were going to design a training template for someone specifically training to become a physique competitor, what would it look like?
How would you approach the mass gain phase? How about cutting? More cardio for physique than bb’ing because not as worried about loss of leg mass?[/quote]
What’s their pre-training physique status; ie, how much muscle do they have, and how much fat are they carrying? [/quote]
To bring it out of the hypothetical: I’ve accepted the reality both from docs regarding the risks associated with some types of lifting (like squatting) and realities of food intake that I will likely be unable to really develop my legs to the extent required for a bodybuilding competition. When I started back lifting post-high school/early college (at 22, when I started law school), I told myself that my long term goal was to compete in a BBing show when I was 30. After this medical stuff, I still want to pursue a physique-related goal for my 30 (I’m 27 now, turning 28 in April).
So after a new weigh-in, I’m 160 right now. I’m thinking that I’m just going to spend the next year and a half getting back to maybe 190 or so… I was in the 210 range this past May and quite lean (six pack, etc). Then again, was also much much stronger than now, so it’s a road back.
Just thinking about what would be the best split for physique comp-related hypertrophy. Was thinking maybe something like
Primary Exercise / Secondary Exercise
Chest/Shoulders (even split)
Back/Arms (even split)
Legs (abbreviated)/HIIT/Traps/Calves
Chest/Shoulders
Back/Arms
Shoulders/Chest
Arms/Back
Days off would either be to eliminate the Leg day every other week or to eliminate the Arms/Back day every other week.
Thoughts?
Diet I’m still figuring out given parameters I mentioned in an earlier post. I’m tolerating chicken fairly well and rice fairly well, to add to my rice cakes and yogurt. Whey has given me some fairly severe issues. Fattier cuts of meat seem to be going okay (have eaten lean pork and steak with no adverse effects). Can handle cottage cheese well, at least the fat free kind.
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
Just to be clear–your primary goal is improving the appearance of your physique, yes? IOW, your focus is not on strength and/or performance.[/quote]
Correct. I will turn my focus to strength and/or performance after I get the physique I want.[/quote]
OK. Are you willing to post pics showing your current condition?
[/quote]
I would be willing, yes. I’m extremely serious about making the necessary changes, and though I’m extremely embarrassed by what my physique has become (had a baby, sedentary job, school, hurt my back, excuse, excuse, excuse), if it’ll help me get to where I want to be, I’m willing to do it. I will try and post it ASAP (at work right now and have drill starting directly after). Are there any specific shots you need or just the standard front view, shirtless selfie? I’m 5’6", 175lbs, 20-25% BF if that helps at all in the mean time. [/quote]
Shirtless, relaxed, front and back. Shot of the wheels wouldn’t hurt as well.
[/quote]
Here goes nothin… Per your request EyeDentist.
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
Just to be clear–your primary goal is improving the appearance of your physique, yes? IOW, your focus is not on strength and/or performance.[/quote]
Correct. I will turn my focus to strength and/or performance after I get the physique I want.[/quote]
OK. Are you willing to post pics showing your current condition?
[/quote]
I would be willing, yes. I’m extremely serious about making the necessary changes, and though I’m extremely embarrassed by what my physique has become (had a baby, sedentary job, school, hurt my back, excuse, excuse, excuse), if it’ll help me get to where I want to be, I’m willing to do it. I will try and post it ASAP (at work right now and have drill starting directly after). Are there any specific shots you need or just the standard front view, shirtless selfie? I’m 5’6", 175lbs, 20-25% BF if that helps at all in the mean time. [/quote]
Shirtless, relaxed, front and back. Shot of the wheels wouldn’t hurt as well.
[/quote]
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
Just to be clear–your primary goal is improving the appearance of your physique, yes? IOW, your focus is not on strength and/or performance.[/quote]
Correct. I will turn my focus to strength and/or performance after I get the physique I want.[/quote]
OK. Are you willing to post pics showing your current condition?
[/quote]
I would be willing, yes. I’m extremely serious about making the necessary changes, and though I’m extremely embarrassed by what my physique has become (had a baby, sedentary job, school, hurt my back, excuse, excuse, excuse), if it’ll help me get to where I want to be, I’m willing to do it. I will try and post it ASAP (at work right now and have drill starting directly after). Are there any specific shots you need or just the standard front view, shirtless selfie? I’m 5’6", 175lbs, 20-25% BF if that helps at all in the mean time. [/quote]
Shirtless, relaxed, front and back. Shot of the wheels wouldn’t hurt as well.
[/quote]
You’ll notice that my right Quad is smaller than my left. When I was in HS I had surgery to repair a reoccurring dislocation and subluxation of my patella. This resulted in the atrophy in my right leg (along with being a dumb kid and not properly performing my rehab). This doesn’t set me back much, though I have to focus on keeping even weight distribution while lifting and making sure I am using FROM doing single leg lifts so as to not cheat myself. Often times my right leg gets more sore (which makes sense to me given the difference in available muscle tissue). I don’t know if any of this factors in, but thought I’d include it just in case.
Sweet-hell, those pictures are hideously large! My apologies to all!
[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
If you were going to design a training template for someone specifically training to become a physique competitor, what would it look like?
How would you approach the mass gain phase? How about cutting? More cardio for physique than bb’ing because not as worried about loss of leg mass?[/quote]
What’s their pre-training physique status; ie, how much muscle do they have, and how much fat are they carrying? [/quote]
To bring it out of the hypothetical: I’ve accepted the reality both from docs regarding the risks associated with some types of lifting (like squatting) and realities of food intake that I will likely be unable to really develop my legs to the extent required for a bodybuilding competition. When I started back lifting post-high school/early college (at 22, when I started law school), I told myself that my long term goal was to compete in a BBing show when I was 30. After this medical stuff, I still want to pursue a physique-related goal for my 30 (I’m 27 now, turning 28 in April).
So after a new weigh-in, I’m 160 right now. I’m thinking that I’m just going to spend the next year and a half getting back to maybe 190 or so… I was in the 210 range this past May and quite lean (six pack, etc). Then again, was also much much stronger than now, so it’s a road back.
Just thinking about what would be the best split for physique comp-related hypertrophy. Was thinking maybe something like
Primary Exercise / Secondary Exercise
Chest/Shoulders (even split)
Back/Arms (even split)
Legs (abbreviated)/HIIT/Traps/Calves
Chest/Shoulders
Back/Arms
Shoulders/Chest
Arms/Back
Days off would either be to eliminate the Leg day every other week or to eliminate the Arms/Back day every other week.
Thoughts?
Diet I’m still figuring out given parameters I mentioned in an earlier post. I’m tolerating chicken fairly well and rice fairly well, to add to my rice cakes and yogurt. Whey has given me some fairly severe issues. Fattier cuts of meat seem to be going okay (have eaten lean pork and steak with no adverse effects). Can handle cottage cheese well, at least the fat free kind.[/quote]
I know you are an experienced lifter; have you run a similar program before? If so, what was your experience with it?
Question for you on the coffee-mate-and-Splenda:
You’ve mentioned that you try to limit how much you add because you want to avoid an insulin spike from any traces of carbs. Thus, I am curious: would a splash of pure heavy cream do you a little better? This is my personal experience, but I vastly prefer the taste of heavy cream to the other stuff, and I don’t know that it would lead to any more insulin spiking than the PB that you’re eating (since PB also has some modest amount of carbs and protein)?
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
Sweet-hell, those pictures are hideously large! My apologies to all![/quote]
OK, here are my impressions/thoughts:
- You have a good frame–good proportions with respect to limb length, shoulders/hips, etc. Gonna look great when you reach your target levels of BF and muscle.
- In terms of your musculature, you seem to have good mass in your torso and (especially) legs, but are lacking (relatively speaking) in your arms and delts.
With regard to setting priorities, I find it helpful to ask myself the following hypothetical question: If I could snap my fingers and make you significantly leaner, OR give you significantly more muscle mass (but not both), which choice would I make? That is, which would improve your physique the most? In your case, the answer is clear: Loss of BF would have a FAR greater impact on your appearance than would increasing LBM. (I dare say that if we leaned you out without putting an ounce of new LBM on you, you’d be very pleased with your appearance.)
All of this is to say that, when it comes to apportioning your fitness-related energy and commitment, you must prioritize diet over lifting. Now, I am NOT saying lifting isn’t important–it is. But for you, consistently sticking to your diet is going to be the key to meeting your long-term physique goals. So when you’re 6 months into this process, and your resolve is flagging, you need to devote what little remaining energy/enthusiasm you have to your diet–NOT to your lifting. For example, I’d much rather see you blow off lifting for 2 weeks than blow off your diet for 2 weeks.
tl; dr Think of yourself not as a weightlifter who is dieting, but as a dieter who lifts weights.
Speaking of diet: What are you doing these days in that regard?
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
Question for you on the coffee-mate-and-Splenda:
You’ve mentioned that you try to limit how much you add because you want to avoid an insulin spike from any traces of carbs. Thus, I am curious: would a splash of pure heavy cream do you a little better? This is my personal experience, but I vastly prefer the taste of heavy cream to the other stuff, and I don’t know that it would lead to any more insulin spiking than the PB that you’re eating (since PB also has some modest amount of carbs and protein)?
[/quote]
Lol, I thought the same thing
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Hi EyeDentist,
I’m curious, what’s your take on heavy whipping cream? 5g of fat per service (table spoon) and not much else. I’m looking for alternatives to peanut putter in the morning any thoughts or suggestions?
Thanks![/quote]
Metabolically, it would be fine–no carbs + no protein = no insulin. Would you simply take a tbsp or two?
[/quote]
Yes, possibly just adding it to coffee. [/quote]
Perfect!
[/quote]
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
Question for you on the coffee-mate-and-Splenda:
You’ve mentioned that you try to limit how much you add because you want to avoid an insulin spike from any traces of carbs. Thus, I am curious: would a splash of pure heavy cream do you a little better? This is my personal experience, but I vastly prefer the taste of heavy cream to the other stuff, and I don’t know that it would lead to any more insulin spiking than the PB that you’re eating (since PB also has some modest amount of carbs and protein)?
[/quote]
You make very valid points. No doubt, PB is going to provoke a greater insulin response than would heavy cream. Further, with respect to calories, heavy cream wouldn’t ‘cost’ any more than PB. Speaking strictly metabolically, cream wins hands-down.
So why don’t I do the cream thing instead? It boils down to the psychology of the situation–cream is something I would drink, but PB is something I get to EAT. For me, not eating anything during the fat phase of my day would leave me feeling stressed and deprived, a state which (for me) has not been conducive to long-term diet compliance.
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]MinusTheColon wrote:
Primary Exercise / Secondary Exercise
Chest/Shoulders (even split)
Back/Arms (even split)
Legs (abbreviated)/HIIT/Traps/Calves
Chest/Shoulders
Back/Arms
Shoulders/Chest
Arms/Back
Days off would either be to eliminate the Leg day every other week or to eliminate the Arms/Back day every other week.
Thoughts?
Diet I’m still figuring out given parameters I mentioned in an earlier post. I’m tolerating chicken fairly well and rice fairly well, to add to my rice cakes and yogurt. Whey has given me some fairly severe issues. Fattier cuts of meat seem to be going okay (have eaten lean pork and steak with no adverse effects). Can handle cottage cheese well, at least the fat free kind.[/quote]
I know you are an experienced lifter; have you run a similar program before? If so, what was your experience with it?[/quote]
Well, I haven’t really run this program before. I’ve done the typical SS/5x5, then I’ve spent a lot of time with a bodypart split, Big Beyond Belief, and (probably my favorite) a split that was similar to the above except it had two leg days.
Thing is, before this medical stuff I’d loved training legs and always felt like it was very important to progress. Wondering whether with physique I should take legs almost entirely out or whether some other approach makes more sense. And with less legwork, I guess I should up the arm training, perhaps giving it its own day. Maybe the only tweak I should make is to just replace one of the leg days in my old routine with an arm day, with maybe some pump work for back (since back tolerates higher volume better than chest). There’s also the concern about treating one’s joints well and such though, as it may be too much upper body work, and maybe I should instead incorporate more cardio.
Diet:
Here’s what I ate yesterday. This was all during one two hour window, per my restrictions during the week, from 9:45p-midnight (I then fell asleep at 12:15, waking at 5:15 to train before work):
Food Fat CHO Pro number cals per serve
Kroger CarbMaster Yogurt: 1.5g f 3g cho 9g pro x5 (60 cals) 300
Kroger Greek Yogurt: 0g f 7g cho 14g pro x2 (80 cals) 160
Chicken Breast 3g 0g 23g x6 (140 cals) 840
Fat free slice cheese 0g 1g 5g x3 (30 cals) 90
Egg white 5g x6 (20 cals) 120
Whole egg 5g 6g x1 (70 cals) 70
Tuna 1g 23g x2 (100 cals) 200
Rice Cakes 0g 7g 1g x14 (45 cals) 630
Sloppy Joe Sauce 0 7g 1g x1.5 (30 cals) 45
Tomato Sauce 0 5g 1g x1.5 (35 cals) 50
Rice 1 15g 1g x2 (75 cals) 150
Total 33.5g fat 163g cho 327g protein
I’ve been hesitantly also having some canned diced spinach (which, as a lover of all things green, I’ll admit is fairly gross), which I seem to be tolerating reasonably well.
Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome. I suppose the protein’s high now that I look at it. Some of this is kind of at the mercy of my dietary restrictions.
Ah, sorry usmc, now that I think about it, I saw that post when you put it up (probably even is what inspired my post, subconsiously, haha).
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
Question for you on the coffee-mate-and-Splenda:
You’ve mentioned that you try to limit how much you add because you want to avoid an insulin spike from any traces of carbs. Thus, I am curious: would a splash of pure heavy cream do you a little better? This is my personal experience, but I vastly prefer the taste of heavy cream to the other stuff, and I don’t know that it would lead to any more insulin spiking than the PB that you’re eating (since PB also has some modest amount of carbs and protein)?
[/quote]
You make very valid points. No doubt, PB is going to provoke a greater insulin response than would heavy cream. Further, with respect to calories, heavy cream wouldn’t ‘cost’ any more than PB. Speaking strictly metabolically, cream wins hands-down.
So why don’t I do the cream thing instead? It boils down to the psychology of the situation–cream is something I would drink, but PB is something I get to EAT. For me, not eating anything during the fat phase of my day would leave me feeling stressed and deprived, a state which (for me) has not been conducive to long-term diet compliance.[/quote]
The psychological thing definitely makes sense! Very valid explanation. One thing that comes up time and again, simple but necessary, is that any “diet” has to be not just physiologically sound but also something that the subject can execute without undue mental stress. Otherwise it’ll never last. Thanks for the thoughts.
[quote]EyeDentist wrote:
[quote]smarterANDharder wrote:
Sweet-hell, those pictures are hideously large! My apologies to all![/quote]
OK, here are my impressions/thoughts:
- You have a good frame–good proportions with respect to limb length, shoulders/hips, etc. Gonna look great when you reach your target levels of BF and muscle.
- In terms of your musculature, you seem to have good mass in your torso and (especially) legs, but are lacking (relatively speaking) in your arms and delts.
With regard to setting priorities, I find it helpful to ask myself the following hypothetical question: If I could snap my fingers and make you significantly leaner, OR give you significantly more muscle mass (but not both), which choice would I make? That is, which would improve your physique the most? In your case, the answer is clear: Loss of BF would have a FAR greater impact on your appearance than would increasing LBM. (I dare say that if we leaned you out without putting an ounce of new LBM on you, you’d be very pleased with your appearance.)
All of this is to say that, when it comes to apportioning your fitness-related energy and commitment, you must prioritize diet over lifting. Now, I am NOT saying lifting isn’t important–it is. But for you, consistently sticking to your diet is going to be the key to meeting your long-term physique goals. So when you’re 6 months into this process, and your resolve is flagging, you need to devote what little remaining energy/enthusiasm you have to your diet–NOT to your lifting. For example, I’d much rather see you blow off lifting for 2 weeks than blow off your diet for 2 weeks.
tl; dr Think of yourself not as a weightlifter who is dieting, but as a dieter who lifts weights.
Speaking of diet: What are you doing these days in that regard?[/quote]
Thank you for taking the time out to evaluate those pics, EyeDentist, as much as your retinas must hate you for doing so! 
I think you’re right about the diet aspect, as the more and more I’m learning (a lot from this site and forum specifically) had me realizing that diet needs to be my area of focus. And I have directed my focus there (and my wife is hating me for it! 
).
Lately, I’ve been trying a similar diet to yours, fasting with PB until workout time, breaking my intake up into lifting and conditioning days. Lifting-day goals: 2720 cals, 250g protein, 250g carbs, 80g fat (these are based on a formula I picked up from one of the carb cycling atricles on this site). Cardio-day goals (which have been tweaked based on recent learning’s on the matter and needing to restrict cal and carb intake when trying to burn fat): 1800 cals, 250g protein, 50-80g carbs, 50-80g fat. I rarely actually hit these goals as I’m trying to ingest everything in about a 3 hour window. I was actually going to ask which one is more important, staying within the window or hitting my macros if it would take me eating more throughout the day to do so? Or are those goals incorrect in your opinion? (Would like to hear anyone else’s opinion as well. I’d take all the help I could get and will appreciate every word!)
Lifting Day Example: 188g protein, 178g carbs, 40g fat, 1830 Calories (like I said, not hitting the goals… usually too full to keep eating)
Basically fasting (other than 2-5 tbsp of natty PB) from the time I wake up until roughly 6pm when I begin to ingest my pre-intra workout shake (cup of Almodncoconut milk, ice, scoop of whey isolates, scoop of creatine). Immediately after, I will make my PWO shake consisting of 1 cup of spinach or kale, cup of Almondcoconut milk, cup of frozen mixed berries, 1/2 cup of Greek yogurt, 2x whey isolates, 1 tbsp fiber supplement. This is followed/joined by a salad with 2 cups of greens, 1/2 cup of carrots, 2 cups of chicken, 3 tbsp of bacon bits, 2 tbsp lite vinaigrette dressing, and one serving of either peanuts or almonds. 2 pieces of english muffin pizza, which include a healthy serving of turkey-pepperoni, 2tbsp of low-sugar pasta sauce, thin slice of provolone, and a few pieces of spinach. Then I will snack on turkey w/ mustard, or beef jerky, or some other lean form of protein until I hit my protein goal for the day. I drink anywhere from .5-1.5 gallons of water/day along with green tea and Mio-fit in the evenings for something with flavor.
Cardio day would eliminate the pre/intra WO shake, eliminate or cut in half the frozen fruit in the shake, eliminate the entire PWO carb-centric meal, while adding the creatine that would generally be in the pre/intra shake to the PWO. Everything else would be the same.
I am doing that low-intensity ab workout every morning as well.
I’ve been trying this diet for a little over a week and while I don’t notice much of a difference around the waistline yet, I do notice feeling “tighter”.
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
Ah, sorry usmc, now that I think about it, I saw that post when you put it up (probably even is what inspired my post, subconsiously, haha).
[/quote]
Lol, no worries. I just figured it might save EyeDentist a reply, but he beat me to it!