EyeDentist, How Do You Train?

Training
381

[quote]pedro1597 wrote:
I would assume the fat gain on a caloric surplus would be from the protein>glucose>fatty acids convertion, not from the insulin release from protein intake no?[/quote]

Insulin promotes MANY anabolic activities, including lipogenesis (as you mention), as well as acting as gatekeeper for the entry of glucose, amino acids, fatty acids, etc, into cells. And ALL of these activities are necessary steps in the process of gaining fat. So you’re right, it’s probably misleading of me to focus inordinately on any one of insulin’s actions as being the insulin-dependent activity I’m trying to avoid by eating in the manner I do.

That said, and until/unless someone can show me research to the contrary, I still maintain that the concomitant increase in glucagon induced by a high-protein meal does little to offset the potential fat-storing activities of the insulin that is also released. In fact, by promoting gluconeogenesis in the liver, glucagon acts as an ‘unindicted co-conspirator’ in the process of turning excess dietary protein into fat.

Any way you slice it (if you’ll pardon the expression), too much protein intake will lead to fat gain. Now, can people get lean eating in the manner you suggest; ie, gnoshing on protein all day (with the caveat that they must run a caloric deficit)? Absolutely–many BBers have gotten freaky lean doing so. Calories in/calories out trumps all.

In a nutshell, all I’m trying to do is eke out an extra percent or two of fat-burning. By avoiding carbs and protein in the early part of the day, I can keep insulin levels near baseline, which (the thinking goes) will have the effect of prolonging the fasting state that developed overnight.

382

Hey eyedentist,

I have seen you mention a fair amount of times that you avoid leucine and dairy based proteins because they release more insulin. I wouldn’t worry about this type of insulin release because it is (in my experience) more sensitive to the muscle receptors than to the fat receptors. See, when you have 5gr of leucine, protein synthesis through the mTor pathway is maxed out (you can google this if you want to). Meaning that taking in 5 gr of leucine will trigger muscle growth.

Now, as long as you’re not overeating this won’t have a negative impact on your bodyfat because the ultimate decider is calories in vs. calories out. What WILL happen is that the insulin released will help you build and preserve muscle.

What this means to you is that more of your calories will be used to preserve/build muscle than they otherwise would, so by doing this you are basically giving your muscles more nutrients and fat less if that makes sense to you.

Let me know what you think.

383

I completely agree with you, low insulin promotes a favorable environmnt for fat loss. What i was wondering was perhaps the benefits of protein intake would outweight its downfalls. And if I may ask, do you have any good sources to get some more info on this subject in general(dont mind being more advanced)?
Thanks again ED, great learning from you!

384

[quote]myself1992 wrote:
Hey eyedentist,

I have seen you mention a fair amount of times that you avoid leucine and dairy based proteins because they release more insulin. I wouldn’t worry about this type of insulin release because it is (in my experience) more sensitive to the muscle receptors than to the fat receptors. See, when you have 5gr of leucine, protein synthesis through the mTor pathway is maxed out (you can google this if you want to). Meaning that taking in 5 gr of leucine will trigger muscle growth.
[/quote]

Hey Myself, thanks for chiming in. It’s not that I avoid milk products/leucine altogether, rather, I avoid them during my ‘fat phase’ (ie, when I’m minimizing carb/protein intake). I mos def am an enthusiastic consumer of leucine in the post-workout period–for a while, in fact, I was ordering extra leucine to mix with my intra-workout drink.

Can you clarify what you mean when you say “I wouldn’t worry about this type of insulin release because it is (in my experience) more sensitive to the muscle receptors than to the fat receptors”? It kind of sounds like you’re suggesting there is more than one type of insulin, but I don’t think that’s what you mean.

385

[quote]pedro1597 wrote:
What i was wondering was perhaps the benefits of protein intake would outweight its downfalls.
[/quote]

It very well might. I wish I could say I was sure I’m on the right track, but I can’t.

[quote]
And if I may ask, do you have any good sources to get some more info on this subject in general(dont mind being more advanced)?
Thanks again ED, great learning from you![/quote]

Which subject are you referring to?

386

Endocrinoly, especially related to nutrition.

387

I mean that both fat cells and muscle cells have insulin receptors and these receptors vary in sensitivity depending on circumstances.

For example an obese person’s fat cells are more sensitive to insulin than their muscle cells. This is because of their diet (mostly carb and fat meals constantly throughout the day) and their lack of activity.

A lean person on the other hand has muscle cell insulin receptors that are much more sensitive than those of obese people, and their fat cell insulin receptors are less sensitive than a fat person’s.

The point I wanted to make, however, was that I don’t think it matters how much insulin is spiked as long as you are in a caloric deficit. If you see pretty much any top pro’s diet you will see that they try to minimize fat and maximize the amount of protein and carbs they can eat.

So you can have let’s say 300 g carbs, 200 gr protein and 20 gr of fat for about 2200 cals

OR

100 g of carbs, 200 gr protein and 100 gr of fat for about 2200 cals

By simply looking at what the best in this sport do we can assume that they use the first scenario more because, with the same amount of calories, you release more insulin in the first scenario and thus maintain more muscle while dieting down.

Now expand this to your situation and you will see that adding in EAAs, leucine or protein during your fat phases as you call them might actually be beneficial instead of detrimental as long as your total calories remain the same.

Now, just to clarify, this is based from my experience and anecdotal evidence I’ve gathered but it makes quite a bit of sense to me.

388

[quote]myself1992 wrote:
I mean that both fat cells and muscle cells have insulin receptors and these receptors vary in sensitivity depending on circumstances.

For example an obese person’s fat cells are more sensitive to insulin than their muscle cells. This is because of their diet (mostly carb and fat meals constantly throughout the day) and their lack of activity.

A lean person on the other hand has muscle cell insulin receptors that are much more sensitive than those of obese people, and their fat cell insulin receptors are less sensitive than a fat person’s.
[/quote]

If you were to substitute ‘trained’ for ‘lean,’ and ‘untrained’ for ‘obese/fat person,’ I would agree.

Like I said in a previous comment, calories in/calories out trumps all, so we are largely in agreement. By manipulating insulin, I’m just hoping to squeeze out another percent or two. Based on my personal experience, I am cautiously optimistic my approach has some merit in this regard.

First, note that that’s exactly how I eat on training days–high carb, medium protein, low fat. I just partition the nutrients differently.

A word about emulating what the pros do. If you’re talking about the hyooge (read: ‘assisted’) guys, I have to respectfully disagree that emulating them is something a natty should do. The fact is, a pro’s hormonal milieu is so profoundly altered as to render him almost a different species when it comes to MPS and/or burning fat. For example: Consider the low-fat diet you mentioned. A natty following a low-fat diet for an extended period of time risks crashing a number of hormone levels, including test. In contrast, someone on pro-level ‘supps’ needn’t worry about crashing endogenous T levels, because he can offset any drop in natural production by simply upping his exogenous dosage. Any natty who attempts to emulate the training and dietary practices of a pro is asking for trouble.

(Needless to say I hope, none of this should be construed as a criticism of those who choose to juice.)

I appreciate what you’re saying, and you may be 100% correct. It’s just that my experience leads me to a different set of conclusions.

389

I agree about what you said about fat causing problems if it’s too low the numbers were just used to make the comparison I wanted to make more simple.

The way we eat is pretty similar except that I only pay attention to insulin when it comes to how carbs and fat affect it.

So we defer in that you think insulin while trying to burn fat is not good and I think that it doesn’t really matter if insulin is elevated by protein as long as the amount of calories is kept the same.

390

[quote]pedro1597 wrote:
Endocrinoly, especially related to nutrition.[/quote]

Lyle McDonald has a lot of endo-related info on his website–a nice balance of ‘pure’ science and clinical application.

391

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]pedro1597 wrote:
Endocrinoly, especially related to nutrition.[/quote]

Lyle McDonald has a lot of endo-related info on his website–a nice balance of ‘pure’ science and clinical application. [/quote]
Thanks very much ED, keep up the good work, will check it out

392

[quote]myself1992 wrote:
I agree about what you said about fat causing problems if it’s too low the numbers were just used to make the comparison I wanted to make more simple.

The way we eat is pretty similar except that I only pay attention to insulin when it comes to how carbs and fat affect it.

So we defer in that you think insulin while trying to burn fat is not good and I think that it doesn’t really matter if insulin is elevated by protein as long as the amount of calories is kept the same. [/quote]

I got very engrained into the keep carbs out Except a small window. And keep insulin low as much as possible otherwise. Now having JM do my diet I am following his plan and it calls for carbs all day. Actually leaned out. I’m not on Ed level leaness but shows me how we can really get way to caught up in the fun physiological minutia

393

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]myself1992 wrote:
I agree about what you said about fat causing problems if it’s too low the numbers were just used to make the comparison I wanted to make more simple.

The way we eat is pretty similar except that I only pay attention to insulin when it comes to how carbs and fat affect it.

So we defer in that you think insulin while trying to burn fat is not good and I think that it doesn’t really matter if insulin is elevated by protein as long as the amount of calories is kept the same. [/quote]

I got very engrained into the keep carbs out Except a small window. And keep insulin low as much as possible otherwise. Now having JM do my diet I am following his plan and it calls for carbs all day. Actually leaned out. I’m not on Ed level leaness but shows me how we can really get way to caught up in the fun physiological minutia
[/quote]

If you are ‘leaning out,’ I take it you are running a caloric deficit?

To my understanding, JM has always advocated what I refer to as a ‘centripetal’ distribution of carbs. That is, when partitioning carbs, the first place he puts them (and the last place he would remove them) is in the periworkout period; the next place he would add/remove carbs would be in the pre- and post-training period; the next periods would be just beyond the pre- and post-training periods; etc, until you get to breakfast and bedtime. Without divulging too much detail regarding the plan he set up for you, can you tell us whether he has changed his philosophy in this regard?

394

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]myself1992 wrote:
I agree about what you said about fat causing problems if it’s too low the numbers were just used to make the comparison I wanted to make more simple.

The way we eat is pretty similar except that I only pay attention to insulin when it comes to how carbs and fat affect it.

So we defer in that you think insulin while trying to burn fat is not good and I think that it doesn’t really matter if insulin is elevated by protein as long as the amount of calories is kept the same. [/quote]

I got very engrained into the keep carbs out Except a small window. And keep insulin low as much as possible otherwise. Now having JM do my diet I am following his plan and it calls for carbs all day. Actually leaned out. I’m not on Ed level leaness but shows me how we can really get way to caught up in the fun physiological minutia
[/quote]

If you are ‘leaning out,’ I take it you are running a caloric deficit?

To my understanding, JM has always advocated what I refer to as a ‘centripetal’ distribution of carbs. That is, when partitioning carbs, the first place he puts them (and the last place he would remove them) is in the periworkout period; the next place he would add/remove carbs would be in the pre- and post-training period; the next periods would be just beyond the pre- and post-training periods; etc, until you get to breakfast and bedtime. Without divulging too much detail regarding the plan he set up for you, can you tell us whether he has changed his philosophy in this regard?[/quote]

One would guess I am at 4300 cals so who knows.

I have carbs during workout. Pwo lunch dinner 1 dinner 2 and bed time snack for 560carbs. Starting at 5am ending around 9pm

395

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

When I was 27, I was noted to have an irregular heartbeat. As part of a (very thorough) cardiac workup, I underwent a Bruce protocol. The cardiologist stopped the test at 19 minutes. (In fairness, I probably wouldn’t have lasted much longer.)
[/quote]

I thought this was interesting so I ran 19 minutes through an online Bruce Protocol calculator and got an estimated VO2Max of nearly 70. Superior for any age and puts you up there with pro athletes. Only 3 NHL players have ever scored above 70 at the scouting combine: Chelios, Belfour, and Iginla.

I recently completed a 20m beep test and my results were abysmal; V02Max of 44. Looking to raise that dramatically with some conditioning over the next few months.

You mentioned calf issues, do you get knots in your calves from running? I’m struggling with them right now. They’re incredibly painful and very limiting.

396

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

You mentioned calf issues, do you get knots in your calves from running? I’m struggling with them right now. They’re incredibly painful and very limiting.
[/quote]

Not sure if ‘knots’ is the word I’d use, as there is nothing like that present on palpation. Instead, I have this one small, very focal area of my right calf–it’s on the lateral aspect, near the origin–that on occasion will have a sudden-onset ‘pulled muscle’ feeling. It usually only occurs while running, although it happened once when I was bounding up the stairs at the gym. It hasn’t occurred the last 3-4 times I’ve run, though. As it happens, today is running day, so I’m knocking on wood for another uneventful outing.

Re trying to not get injured while running: I’ve been going slower than usual (which is almost impossible, but I manage). And instead of my out-and-back neighborhood course (which is mainly concrete), I’ve been running the ~1/4 mile gravel loop at the gym. This has two advantages:

  1. the surface is more forgiving–probably reduces the risk of injury; and
  2. if I ‘get a flat,’ I’m not forced to limp 2-3 miles to get home.
397

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

You mentioned calf issues, do you get knots in your calves from running? I’m struggling with them right now. They’re incredibly painful and very limiting.
[/quote]

Not sure if ‘knots’ is the word I’d use, as there is nothing like that present on palpation. Instead, I have this one small, very focal area of my right calf–it’s on the lateral aspect, near the origin–that on occasion will have a sudden-onset ‘pulled muscle’ feeling. It usually only occurs while running, although it happened once when I was bounding up the stairs at the gym. It hasn’t occurred the last 3-4 times I’ve run, though. As it happens, today is running day, so I’m knocking on wood for another uneventful outing.
[/quote]

Out of curiosity do you have shin splints?

I have a similar issue where a specific spot on my right calf (not sure how to describe anatomically like you did) that is rather tight and will “pull” every now and then. It’s happened once or twice while running and once when I was push mowing my yard up a hill (sad really…). I’ll wake up after a few hours of sleep usually after a squat or deadlift session and have to work it with a lacrosse ball. I’m curious if there’s a correlation to shin splints something I didn’t use to deal with, but do now.

398

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

You mentioned calf issues, do you get knots in your calves from running? I’m struggling with them right now. They’re incredibly painful and very limiting.
[/quote]

Not sure if ‘knots’ is the word I’d use, as there is nothing like that present on palpation. Instead, I have this one small, very focal area of my right calf–it’s on the lateral aspect, near the origin–that on occasion will have a sudden-onset ‘pulled muscle’ feeling. It usually only occurs while running, although it happened once when I was bounding up the stairs at the gym. It hasn’t occurred the last 3-4 times I’ve run, though. As it happens, today is running day, so I’m knocking on wood for another uneventful outing.
[/quote]

Out of curiosity do you have shin splints?

I have a similar issue where a specific spot on my right calf (not sure how to describe anatomically like you did) that is rather tight and will “pull” every now and then. It’s happened once or twice while running and once when I was push mowing my yard up a hill (sad really…). I’ll wake up after a few hours of sleep usually after a squat or deadlift session and have to work it with a lacrosse ball. I’m curious if there’s a correlation to shin splints something I didn’t use to deal with, but do now.
[/quote]

Re shin splints: I don’t suffer with them currently, but have in the past. Misery.

Re your calf, it sounds like we might be dealing with similar conditions. Maybe I should try working it like you mention.

One of my many fitness-related failures over the years has been a complete lack of attention to mobility/prehab issues–and that chicken seems to be coming home to roost. If I knew then what I know now…

399

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]EyeDentist wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

You mentioned calf issues, do you get knots in your calves from running? I’m struggling with them right now. They’re incredibly painful and very limiting.
[/quote]

Not sure if ‘knots’ is the word I’d use, as there is nothing like that present on palpation. Instead, I have this one small, very focal area of my right calf–it’s on the lateral aspect, near the origin–that on occasion will have a sudden-onset ‘pulled muscle’ feeling. It usually only occurs while running, although it happened once when I was bounding up the stairs at the gym. It hasn’t occurred the last 3-4 times I’ve run, though. As it happens, today is running day, so I’m knocking on wood for another uneventful outing.
[/quote]

Out of curiosity do you have shin splints?

I have a similar issue where a specific spot on my right calf (not sure how to describe anatomically like you did) that is rather tight and will “pull” every now and then. It’s happened once or twice while running and once when I was push mowing my yard up a hill (sad really…). I’ll wake up after a few hours of sleep usually after a squat or deadlift session and have to work it with a lacrosse ball. I’m curious if there’s a correlation to shin splints something I didn’t use to deal with, but do now.
[/quote]

Re shin splints: I don’t suffer with them currently, but have in the past. Misery.

Re your calf, it sounds like we might be dealing with similar conditions. Maybe I should try working it like you mention.

One of my many fitness-related failures over the years has been a complete lack of attention to mobility/prehab issues–and that chicken seems to be coming home to roost. If I knew then what I know now…
[/quote]

Ya I also neglect mobility/prehab and I’m starting to see the light as well. The lax ball seems to help. I just put as much pressure as I can stand on “the spot” for as long as I can 3-4 times. Then I roll over the whole calf another 3-4 times.

It sucks…

400


My calves had a date with a lax ball last night. I’d also recommend letting your SO go to town on them; it’s difficult to administer the amount of suffering on yourself needed to really get them to loosen up.

My trigger points are shown in the third view, although the higher trigger point is situated more lateral on my leg than they show.